Boltgun beta rule

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

The buff is a huge step in the right direction and I applaud the development team for recognizing a serious issue (bolters being the worst basic infantry weapon in the game) and addressing it. However, there are two or three issues I can personally observe from the beta rules.

 

First is that it provides a disproportionate boost to units that didn't need it as bad, while not really helping the units that needed it the most. See: everyone hyping LRC's and Bikes. These are historically powerful units and saw plenty of play in past editions. I don't know whether or not they were very good in 8E before this change, and perhaps the buff was needed to make them better, but the basic MEQ is still fairly lackluster even with this change. It's definitely better than nothing and a welcome buff, but it's still not enough to bring MEQ on par. It's not really that I want Space Marines to be overpowered, it's just that many other factions in this game ARE, so unless they get nerfed, there's no choice but to give MEQ very strong changes if you're going to make them as good value as other armies' infantry.

 

Second is that even though this change doesn't even make Space Marines as good as other armies (outside of things like Guilliman netlists), people STILL refuse to allow the beta rules to be tested. There is a lot of ill will for Space Marines for being so popular and perhaps receiving a powerful formation in 7E. People will gladly play the beta rules to nerf Raven Guard, but will not allow the beta rules to boost bolters.

 

Lastly, the buff promotes static gunlines. It does nothing for those who already fought close up or who value the more interesting, dynamic, and possibly skillful gameplay which involves maneuvering, closing in, and assault. Like I said, all buffs are needed and welcomed, but not if it just turns the army into a horde MEQ spam gunline as if the army were IG.

[Panzer]

I actually think it's just a tiny step in the right direction but in its current version it's counter intuitiv with the usual Marine gameplay. They might have as well just turned Rapid fire Bolters into Heavy and double the shots instead. It's almost the same and might give a bit of perspective to how wrong it is in its current form.

The best thing about this beta rule is the fact that it exists at all showing us that GW is willed to do something about Bolter Marines.

[Ishagu]

I actually think it's a decent change. I play against a lot of Guard and Dark Eldar and it will double the damage basic bolters do in a lot of instances.

 

This is not the solution to all Astartes problems but it's a free upgrade we got following a variety of point drops across the book.

[Captain Idaho]

I would like Bolters to have higher strength up close (alongside other bonuses I have detailed elsewhere) but these changes are welcome. Many times my handful of remnants have been left plinking away with 1 shot and now they can all join in. Yum.

[Ishagu]

If bolters get higher strength they only hurt other Astartes, unfortunately. They can't go above Str5 imo, so they'd be wounding Marines on a 3 and the stuff they wound on a 3 now would still be a 3.

[Captain Idaho]

As I mentioned elsewhere, there would be 2 bonuses that work in tandem.

[Panzer]

If bolters get higher strength they only hurt other Astartes, unfortunately. They can't go above Str5 imo, so they'd be wounding Marines on a 3 and the stuff they wound on a 3 now would still be a 3.

 

Fair argument actually. Increasing just the AP at half range would probably work better.

Another possible bonus at half range would be an additional shot per model.

[MARK0SIAN]

You could alternatively maybe get +1 to hit at half range with bolters to represent the accuracy of a marine or the fact that even if the shot misses the first ork it would probably hit one behind it :)

 

Another alternative would be to give +1 to the wound roll against infantry within half range rather than a direct strength increase. It means you’d be wounding guard on a 2+ and orks on a 3+ (which is kind of what the bolter was invented for in the first place)

[Panzer]

+1 to wound against Infantry and Bikes would be better than +1S I think. The "against infantry" clause prevents it scaling too good against vehicles and monsters but it serves the task of wounding the intended targets better than +1S as Ishagu pointed out.

+1 to hit sounds interesting but on a BS3+ army with re-roll 1s to-hit everywhere it sounds a bit too much.

[MARK0SIAN]

Yeah, the +1 to wound against infantry within half range is my preferred one of the two I listed. You’d have to specify that it was for standard ammo though, I think giving that to Deathwatch might be too much.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah +1 to wound against infantry is good. Might make Sternguard ungodly against infantry mind ;)

[Jacques Corbin]

I like the idea of -1AP for bolters, or just -1AP at half range, or even -1AP on a 6+ to hit. But if that happened, would we need to make things like Heavy Bolters -2AP? I mean where would it end?

 

How about +1 to wound on a 6+ to hit? That demonstrates the explosive power of a bolter round when combined with great marksmanship. I mean, a bolter round is supposed to be a rocket propelled grenade about the size of a can of red bull. If you shoot a tank in the tracks instead of just the hull, it will do some real damage, same if you manage to shoot a monster in they eyes or some other vulnerable spot. With the extra shots from bolter discipline, those 6s will be showing up more often.

 

Kind of like when salmon fishing in Alaska, and a grizzly bear decides he want your catch rather than catching his own. I mean, yeah, I have a high caliber side arm, but if I just shoot him in the torso, I am just going to :cuss him off. It's a real world example of Strength of weapon vs Toughness of target. So, you keep your cool (or hold your bowels, but not necessarily both), and you aim for the eyes or the neck right under the jaw. The bear dies instead of me, and I go home with salmon meat, and a new rug.

[Rik Lightstar]

I think a really good buff for standard marines would be if their bolt weapons forced successful armour saves to be re-rolled.

 

It would make them much more efficient against what they're meant to be good against, which is basically anything with a 4+ or worse, they'd be a bit better against 3+ and 2+, but not horrifyingly so.

 

Rik

[Subtleknife]

Its a step in the right direction but I think what is really needed is make them rapid 2 and balance other weapons from there. Would really encourage marines to get close and 40 bs3 shots at strnth 4 would be pretty good at clearing hordes. Whatever gw do they need to buff marines def too.

[Ishagu]

Nah, a basic Troop squad should not be erasing 30 models a turn

[Jacques Corbin]

Nah, a basic Troop squad should not be erasing 30 models a turn

If this were the Tau board, you would be reported and catching hell.

[Ishagu]

Firewarriors? I don't think I've lost a model to some this edition lol

[Kallas]

Firewarriors? I don't think I've lost a model to some this edition lol

I assume from that statement that you've never played them in 8th Ed then! 

[Ishagu]

I've played them plenty. I've not faced a spam. I think the suits are more popular in my area, but I have faced them locally and at tournaments.

[Panzer]

Could you finally stop with the excessive exaggerating? It really weakens everything else you say.

 

Nah, a basic Troop squad should not be erasing 30 models a turn

Rapid fire 2 Bolter Marines don't kill 30 models a turn. It's only about 12 Guardsmen with a 10 model squad. 15 if we go with Bolt rifles. So at best just half of that.

That being said we already have Rapid fire 2 Intercessors with the specialist detachment so that argument is invalid anyway.

 

Firewarriors? I don't think I've lost a model to some this edition lol

You didn't lose a model against Firewarriors this edition? That's funny because a  basic 5 model squad on average kills a Marine at 0-15" without any Markerlight buff, Fireblade buff, T'au Sept Stratagem or Vior'la Sept Stratagem. A 10 model squad with Fireblade nearby kills 3 on average. 4 with the T'au Sept Stratagem for +1 to-wound and 6 with the Vior'la Stratagem for double shooting.

So unless you wipe out at least the 15 Firewarriors necessary for a Battalion turn 1 in every single game you play I call bull :cuss and if you do I question your target priority.

[Ishagu]

I don't start any game with Marines on the table. They are either in transports, coming in from reserves or out of range. I probably have lost some, but I can't remember having done so.

[Charlo]

So I have to agree that while on paper this rule is pretty great (obvious winners being Hurricanes, Bikers & everything Deathwatch), it doesn't really do much to help marines overall.

 

It encourages marines to be static until the opponent is danger close, at which point we don't actually get anymore offensive output unless they charge  and really, a game that can be won by marines standing back and just shooting is probably a pretty easy match up anyway...

 

I also wonder if this means we're going to see new codexes for the marine factions, or at least an update book akin to Angels of Death at the end of 7th, with new units and rules.

[Kallas]

I don't start any game with Marines on the table. They are either in transports, coming in from reserves or out of range. I probably have lost some, but I can't remember having done so.

Which means your prior comment is entirely irrelevant, as you make it sound like Fire Warriors aren't a threat to Marines when they actually are. You just used skewed data.

 

I also run my Marines in transports, but whenever I disembark to clear those Fire Warriors off objectives I, inevitably, lose Marines to Overwatch and/or subsequent fire, because they are a threat.

[Ishagu]

Anything can be a threat. I just don't think we should be overblowing their ability.

 

A lot of the suggestions here would make the standard marine better but would have to make them cost more. Frankly I don't want to play a smaller army. If you want 15 super tough guys there's always Custodes.

In kill team Marines are very resilent also.

 

Like I've pointed out before, Astartes were no more resilient in past editions. Back then we had broken psychic spam, multiple character squads that made invincible units or we had free stuff that turned Marines into a horde that outnumbered Guard on the tabletop.

[Panzer]

Anything can be a threat. I just don't think we should be overblowing their ability.

 

 

We also shouldn't be overblowing their inability. Looking at you right now, Ishagu. ;)