Boltgun beta rule

[Kallas]

Why exclude DW in the first place? If it scales too good with SIA just make DW Veterans more expensive. They ARE better than the standard Marine.

Sure, that could work too.

 

Honestly just needs to be storm bolters that are addressed. Their the biggest culprit across the every power armoured unit that can take them. When a weapon choice is simply so good it becomes the default, you know there's a problem. Codex marines pay 2 points to double their output - that is too cheap. At the very least most of those units have reasons to make it less of a no brainer, like Sternguard having to give up SIB and the stratagem, which makes it an actual, viable choice. Deathwatch pay a 3 point premium to do the same thing, but give up nothing to do it. They're already superior simply because of their best weapons being so bloody cheap.

 

But since the whole point of this rule is to simulate how much more capable marines are in wielding bolters, it wouldn't make much sense to suggest that Veterans of countless battles instantly lose the knowledge they have just because they happened to be standing next to a Terminator. Don't get me wrong - players would accept the rule impact even if they revolted against the reasoning, but it very much feels like just another versions of the question "why do marines forget their own tactics when they sit at a steering wheel". 

Doubling [not good] still isn't great. The biggest issue is Deathwatch Storm Bolters, which have enough shots with enough capability.

 

Sure, Veterans with Storm Bolters are fine, but they're still pretty crap vs pretty much any horde, and they won't do anything to vehicles/monsters unless you also pay for expensive melee weapons to combat them.

 

But yeah, maybe not excluding DW, it may just be as simple as making DW more expensive as sfPanzer suggests.

[MARK0SIAN]

I think maybe making deathwatch stormbolters more expensive might be ok but I’d be cautious about overall increases for deathwatch. For all their upgrade options they’re still just marines and are still vulnerable to the same stuff that other marines are and still suffer the same problems, even if you can give each one a storm shield.

[Lemondish]

I think maybe making deathwatch stormbolters more expensive might be ok but I’d be cautious about overall increases for deathwatch. For all their upgrade options they’re still just marines and are still vulnerable to the same stuff that other marines are and still suffer the same problems, even if you can give each one a storm shield.

 

Giving each one a storm shield means they are fundamentally not vulnerable to the same stuff other marines are. 

[Panzer]

Also yeah Deathwatch are pretty much glasscannons as far as it goes for Marines. Same as Grey Knights. That's how things are if you increase the damage output of PA Marines.

[Dracos]

Or ... maybe instead of wanting to nerf Deathwatch, who are hardly OP in the competitive meta, we find a buff or unit DW doesn’t have to bring Marines up a notch. lrobabaly won’t help my Primaris mind you but I think we should look for ways to bring everyone up a notch instead of nerfing.

 

That said ... I totally agree when a single unit or option is considered not just must have but default then something should be done to create balance within a Codex (but not hurting is competitiveness )

 

 

 

 

 

Except Eldar .... and Custodes (jk ... mostly) ;)

[Panzer]

Or ... maybe instead of wanting to nerf Deathwatch, who are hardly OP in the competitive meta, we find a buff or unit DW doesn’t have to bring Marines up a notch. lrobabaly won’t help my Primaris mind you but I think we should look for ways to bring everyone up a notch instead of nerfing.

 

That said ... I totally agree when a single unit or option is considered not just must have but default then something should be done to create balance within a Codex (but not hurting is competitiveness )

 

 

 

 

 

Except Eldar .... and Custodes (jk ... mostly)

 

Nobody is talking about nerfing Deathwatch. We're talking about buffing regular Marines and IF those same buffs happen to be too much for Deathwatch with their special issue ammunition THEN they can get made more expensive to dial them back again.

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

I think maybe making deathwatch stormbolters more expensive might be ok but I’d be cautious about overall increases for deathwatch. For all their upgrade options they’re still just marines and are still vulnerable to the same stuff that other marines are and still suffer the same problems, even if you can give each one a storm shield.

Giving each one a storm shield means they are fundamentally not vulnerable to the same stuff other marines are.

They’re still vulnerable to volume of shots/attacks just like regular marines and that is one of the biggest vulnerabilities of marines, they’re too susceptible to small arms fire. Given how 8th has both increased the volume of shots on many weapons and vastly increased the number of rerolls available they die in droves to it in a way they never have before. Storm shields don’t help with that. And even if storm shields made them totally unkillable, the marine still has to be carrying it, without one the basic deathwatch marine would be just as squishy as a regular marine.

 

So even if storm shields do boost something significantly then that piece of wargear should be what is increased in cost, not the marines carrying it. You cannot increase the cost of faction/model simply because they have access to something that makes them better, you have to adjust the cost of the thing that makes them better. I don’t believe there is a case, even with these proposed changes, for increasing the cost of deathwatch.

[Dracos]

I count bumping the points of unit up as a nerf

[Lemondish]

Or ... maybe instead of wanting to nerf Deathwatch, who are hardly OP in the competitive meta, we find a buff or unit DW doesn’t have to bring Marines up a notch. lrobabaly won’t help my Primaris mind you but I think we should look for ways to bring everyone up a notch instead of nerfing.

 

That said ... I totally agree when a single unit or option is considered not just must have but default then something should be done to create balance within a Codex (but not hurting is competitiveness )

 

 

 

 

 

Except Eldar .... and Custodes (jk ... mostly)

 

I think a force being OP in the competitive meta is a poor way to analyze the efficiency of a unit. Sure, it's a cutthroat environment that encourages maximizing effectiveness - but a large part of the information we use to analyze the meta relies on games played under a packet of home rules. Furthermore, we actually ARE seeing Deathwatch placing better and better post CA18 in competitive play. I've let the thread I started to share these findings languish since it didn't seem to really get much discussion going, but I haven't stopped keeping an eye on the meta for DW. They're true up and comers.

 

Here's the thing about DW....a Deathwatch Veteran is an example of a power armoured marine that, for a 7 ppm premium over his codex boltgun wielding brethren...

• fires special snowflake bullets that do a variety of super powerful effects
• fires twice as many rounds
• has twice as many melee attacks
• has a 3+ invulnerable save
• can embed 2+ 2 wound attrition fire soakers into the unit to make them even more resilient
• can cheaply or freely unlock the ability to fall back and shoot without penalty, fall back and charge, heroically intervene, and automatically pass morale checks
• can deep strike for 1 CP
• gain the ability to re-roll 1s to wound against specific targets without staying within the aura of a buff character

And even now the community doesn't think that this is enough to make marines competitive. 

 

 

They’re still vulnerable to volume of shots/attacks just like regular marines and that is one of the biggest vulnerabilities of marines, they’re too susceptible to small arms fire. Given how 8th has both increased the volume of shots on many weapons and vastly increased the number of rerolls available they die in droves to it in a way they never have before. Storm shields don’t help with that. And even if storm shields made them totally unkillable, the marine still has to be carrying it, without one the basic deathwatch marine would be just as squishy as a regular marine.

So even if storm shields do boost something significantly then that piece of wargear should be what is increased in cost, not the marines carrying it. You cannot increase the cost of faction/model simply because they have access to something that makes them better, you have to adjust the cost of the thing that makes them better. I don’t believe there is a case, even with these proposed changes, for increasing the cost of deathwatch.

 

No they're not vulnerable to volume of fire because of another one of their awesome rules - Vet squads adding Terminators to tank attrition fire. The real marine killers are cheap plasma.They do the job so efficiently compared to any other weapon, but DW combat that with storm shields. 

 

But I never once suggested a points increase. I simply pointed out that the problem for adding offensive capability onto the beta boltgun rules outside of what it already provides is that it has a knock-on effect that amplifies the benefit exponentially for storm bolter Deathwatch. I am not a fan of increasing the price of storm bolters to resolve this.

 

I'd honestly prefer a much more hardline solution - remove it from the list of weapons Veterans can equip, or add a caveat to the SIA list so that it applies only to models with the Character or Terminator keywords. But this is just a subjective preference. I despise the storm bolter usurping everything because as long as it dominates like this no other weapon or durability adjustment will ever get the balance pass it truly deserves. 

[Panzer]

I count bumping the points of unit up as a nerf

Because you completely ignore that it would be combined with additional rules that would increase their damage output. Also it's just a potential solution to a potential problem. 

[Captain Idaho]

=][= This topic is losing its focus Frater. Let's keep the topic on Beta Bolters and how they affect Marines rather than future changes and Deathwatch balance with Storm Bolters. =][=

[Kallas]

And even now the community doesn't think that this is enough to make marines competitive.

It doesn't make Marines competitive if only Deathwatch are competitive. Black Templars, White Scars, Salamanders, Iron Hands, Space Wolves, even Blood Angels are still languishing in less than mediocrity.

[Lemondish]

 

And even now the community doesn't think that this is enough to make marines competitive.

It doesn't make Marines competitive if only Deathwatch are competitive. Black Templars, White Scars, Salamanders, Iron Hands, Space Wolves, even Blood Angels are still languishing in less than mediocrity.

Might be worth considering the context of that statement - would help not to cherry pick it.

 

But alas it would be off topic, so I suppose time to move on.

 

Anybody try Centurions yet?

[Kallas]

Cherry picking? My point is that only Deathwatch are competitive.

 

Blood Angels Smash Captains are used in Soup but Blood Angels aren't exactly a competitive mono Codex. They're also arguably the most viable of the non-Deathwatch Chapters.

[Captain Idaho]

Regardless of overall competitiveness...

 

...I'm taking some Count As Centurions in my next game to see how they go. I'm quietly confident - 54 shots at 24" (28" threat range) is phenomenal.

[thewarriorhunter]

I played a 650 game last night. I took cataphractii terminators, scouts, and a tac squad. The game was a terrible slapping match but it felt good to throw so many dice. How my dice rolled is another story but it was nice. My terminators did work on infantry, my tacs not so much. I've only played one game with the new rules but I do like them. Having the extra shots on AP0 does not seem like it's unbalanced.

[MrZakalwe]

I played a 650 game last night. I took cataphractii terminators, scouts, and a tac squad. The game was a terrible slapping match but it felt good to throw so many dice. How my dice rolled is another story but it was nice. My terminators did work on infantry, my tacs not so much. I've only played one game with the new rules but I do like them. Having the extra shots on AP0 does not seem like it's unbalanced.

Pretty much my experience as a guard player facing marines- still think they need chapter tactics to work on vehicles but objective campers suddenly throwing out a bunch more shots at my guard meant they didn't feel so ignorable. Sternguard were the surprise winner- they actually felt dangerous and cut my dudes to pieces at 30".

 

Deathwatch feel absolutely abusive to play against now but the bolter change is good and balanced on normal marines.

[thewarriorhunter]

I think next time I play I'm going to make make my tacs 'counts as' sternguard to give that shot. I don't have a kit but I feel like that's an easy enough proxy that I'm not concerned. I also want to get my first 5 man intercessor squad done so I can give them a shot also.

 

My cataphractii were dishing out 20 shots and my tac squad was ~15 for most of the game (7 marines, a missile launcher, and a sgt with pistol). I think it really helps with presence and thematically felt a lot better to me.

[Kallas]

So far I've had Bolter Discipline only affect my Rhinos. My Grey Hunters have not yet had Bolter Discipline trigger, since they were in Rapid Fire range already; had disembarked to get to an objective; or the enemies closed quickly enough to make it a non issue.

 

On the Rhinos it was...meh. Sure, it gave them greater flexibility in targeting and a few more shots, but it didn't really do much because they're just Bolter shots.

 

It's a nice, free buff, but it's done nothing for me so far in about four games now.

[chapter master 454]

Maybe a lot of you are taking the change in the wrong way. Because right now it sounds like you guys are running around with this new beta rule and wielding it like an excalibur.

 

This rule was never meant to suddenly make marines top tier, it was meant to give a helping hand. This isn't a colossal singular buff to any ONE unit but instead a sweeping buff because turning 1 shot into 2 isn't exactly a big deal but the thing here we are talking about is a multiplier and one of the famous ones, doubling. Normally when we are throwing bolt rounds across the board, our tacticals or intercessors did so in groups of 7-10 shots which as far as damage goes tends to peter out fairly quick when firing into those groups of guardsmen (being generous, 10 becomes 7, 7 becomes 5 and 5 becomes 4) which tends to mean our marines get ground down fairly quickly in the more forgettable exchanges of dice. However, with this, those exchanges get altered. 10 is now 20, 20 becomes 14, 14 becomes 10 and 10 becomes 7, and 3 guardsmen left on average will all run unless a commissar puts a bolt round in their head which leaves only 2 which used to still 6.

 

This rule doesn't make us godlike beings nor will it make our marines able to kill anything because we can throw more bolt rounds, but instead it makes those less notable exchanges go in our favour. Suddenly we get to turn 3 and 4 and instead of seeing a surprising amount of infantry still left, the board is a lot more clear. Our infantry can now deal with chaff more effectively, in other words our chaff beats their chaff. Now instead of always needing to figure out an anti-infantry method (which to be honest did often come down to how to deliver some form of bolter blitz squad to a target), we have decent firepower that can deal with such issues without needing to think too much about it.

 

This rule doesn't make us gods, but by emperor it helps keep guardsmen joe in check.

[Ishagu]

Yeah it's a nice little bonus. It's not going to swing games or make the Land Raider Crusader the best tank lol

 

Just take the free upgrade and be happy. It's 100% better than no upgrade at all.

[thewarriorhunter]

Completely agree. This isn't meant to make marines top-tier or god-like. It's meant to give a little extra. I think it's great and am looking forward to my next game where I get to throw more dice.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Regardless of overall competitiveness...

 

...I'm taking some Count As Centurions in my next game to see how they go. I'm quietly confident - 54 shots at 24" (28" threat range) is phenomenal.

 

I saw a video batrep on Tabletop Tactics - Smurfs versus Deathguard and welly Wellington those Cents were all up in their business !!!

[Kallas]

Maybe a lot of you are taking the change in the wrong way. Because right now it sounds like you guys are running around with this new beta rule and wielding it like an excalibur.

 

This rule doesn't make us gods, but by emperor it helps keep guardsmen joe in check.

 

Maybe I wasn't clear enough:

 

In the four games I've played with it so far, it has only ever actually triggered on my vehicles. My infantry have so far never even used the extended range because:

• the opportunity cost of not moving was too high (ie, objectives needed grabbed)
• I needed to keep them in transports so they didn't melt to the enemy's incidental fire
• I was already within 12" of the targets I needed/wanted to shoot

My point is that, so far (and in future games it may be different) it hasn't made the slightest bit of difference to my Bolter-armed Marines.

[Ishagu]

I'm playing AdMech in a tournament this Sat so I've not had a chance to test it but from my memory of my last game with Marines I would have got extra shots on quite a few occasions. Against Dark Eldar they'd certainly be useful (last opponent).