Captain Idaho Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 What list you bringing? Let us know how it goes in relation to Beta Bolters (actually give us a report in our humble Ultramarines forum ;) ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353286-boltgun-beta-rule/page/6/#findComment-5244847 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 I've only used it in a game against Deathguard so far. It didn't exactly change anything about the outcome of the game since I would've won anyway and they didn't add much damage overall but it allowed me to leave two units of Intercessors behind on objectives without feeling too bad about it which later allowed me to easily score 6VP (priority in combination with a 1d3VP tactical objective where I had to capture three objectives for). Didn't need those points to win but it sure was a nice boost. It also increased my board control a bit since I didn't end up pushing my whole army into my opponents deployment zone this way which also gave him much less options of his reserves. Overall the match went very well in my favour anyway with or without Bolter Disciplin. It just allowed me to cover my backfield with Bolt Rifle Intercessors without feeling bad about it. I'd have to see how things go in a closer match like against AdMech or something (really hate playing against them tbh). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353286-boltgun-beta-rule/page/6/#findComment-5244851 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waking Dreamer Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Personally I'd like to have seen Bolters go up in strength within half range since a bolter is generally bigger (thus the calibre is larger) for Astartes than unenhanced folk. Would encourage more forward aggressive play than hanging back and rapid firing. Has that been established in the lore, that bolters / stormbolters intended to be used by baseline humans are generally less powerful than the standard issue held by the Astartes? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353286-boltgun-beta-rule/page/6/#findComment-5244854 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Has that been established in the lore, that bolters / stormbolters intended to be used by baseline humans are generally less powerful than the standard issue held by the Astartes? It doesn't appear to be in the 8th Edition Marine Codex, or any of the other Marine Codexes. Looking on Lexicanum, the only reference is this: "Like other Space Marine weaponry, Astartes boltguns are designed around their superhuman physique. The weight of each weapon would require most humans to use a supporting brace, with hand-grips larger than any normal human could manage. However, even if a normal human were to fire the boltgun, the resulting recoil would rip their arm from its socket.[10d]" Some discredit this, as it comes from the Fantasy Flight Games Dark Heresy RPG books, which are now no longer supporting it and GW aren't licensing them now. However, from a lore point of view, why would someone go to the trouble of making Bolters and then not just hand them out to as many of your troops as possible if they could wield them? Wouldn't some Guard Regiments just use Bolters? The discredited reference is the same that says that Bolter and its ammunition is rare and hard to manufacture, so if the first part is discarded, then surely Guardsmen should just be running around with Bolters! While Sisters have Bolters, they at least have the Power Armour to support it (even though it is inferior Power Amour, and it must be otherwise the Black Carapce is pointless...although not from a rules point of view...because of course it isn't...). Guard Sergeants who can have Bolters somehow have equally effective ones. It's one of the reasons I whole heartedly support Idaho's suggestion to make Astartes Bolters have better S and/or AP at half range (although personally, I feel like Astartes stuff should generally be better: they're supposedly the best, so why would you bother equipping them with the same weapons that any old Joe Guardsman can use?) Anyway... There's not necessarily any supporting lore to say that Astartes Bolters are bigger/better (although I have not got access to any old Codexes at the moment so can't check them) but logic would suggest that they are. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353286-boltgun-beta-rule/page/6/#findComment-5244869 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 I saw a video batrep on Tabletop Tactics - Smurfs versus Deathguard and welly Wellington those Cents were all up in their business !!! Watching that now, because I do like Tabletop Tactics TV, and while they certainly did do pretty well...they were Guilliman buffed. Angry words do a lot of damage with Guilliman rerolls! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353286-boltgun-beta-rule/page/6/#findComment-5244873 Share on other sites More sharing options...
War Angel Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Astartes bolsters are made for astartes. Normal humans wouldn't be able to weird them as long in a combat environment. It shoots a higher caliber if I'm not mistaken. You could argue that they would just mas produce them and give everyone the weapon, and while I'm are they could, they won't. The space marines weapons are considered sacred, and they won't just pass them out because they can. That's my take on it. Backed up by FFG, but GW took that contract from them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353286-boltgun-beta-rule/page/6/#findComment-5244910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 I'm fairly certain it's covered in some BL novels but not sure totally! *** Yes I saw the Tabletop Tactics battle report. Great guys and really enjoy every report they put up. The Centurions were definitely better because of Guilliman but a Captain and Lieutenant (or Wisdom of the Ancients where needed ;) ) can still buff the unit handily. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353286-boltgun-beta-rule/page/6/#findComment-5244985 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Yes I saw the Tabletop Tactics battle report. Great guys and really enjoy every report they put up. The Centurions were definitely better because of Guilliman but a Captain and Lieutenant (or Wisdom of the Ancients where needed ;) ) can still buff the unit handily. Captain is fine, but the difference between Lt and Guilliman is just light years apart. Just watching that batrep, the amount of wounds he got through needing fives was ridiculous. Half of the initial Bolter shots wounded. With Cpt/Lt, that's about 75% better (Cpt/Lt does about 10 wounds vs DG; Guilliman does about 17.5). Rerolling ones is nothing like rerolling all to wound. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353286-boltgun-beta-rule/page/6/#findComment-5245084 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 No of course it ain't, but it's still good. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353286-boltgun-beta-rule/page/6/#findComment-5245117 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 No of course it ain't, but it's still good. Yeah. Hurricane Bolters get good mileage out of Bolter Discipline. I still maintain that it does next to nothing (of note) for anything else, except Deathwatch Storm Bolters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353286-boltgun-beta-rule/page/6/#findComment-5245118 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Calgar and a Lieutenant isn't too far removed from Guilliman, especially depending on what weapons your army has. If you spam Str 4/5 Gman is better, but for stuff like Auto Cannons, Las Cannons, Etc the difference is more marginal. When I run Guilliman he isn't stood next to primarily Bolter Marines, for example. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353286-boltgun-beta-rule/page/6/#findComment-5245121 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Calgar and a Lieutenant isn't too far removed from Guilliman, especially depending on what weapons your army has. If you spam Str 4/5 Gman is better, but for stuff like Auto Cannons, Las Cannons, Etc the difference is more marginal. When I run Guilliman he isn't stood next to primarily Bolter Marines, for example. Well we are in a thread about Bolter which coincidentally are usually S4/5. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353286-boltgun-beta-rule/page/6/#findComment-5245125 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Calgar and a Lieutenant isn't too far removed from Guilliman, especially depending on what weapons your army has. If you spam Str 4/5 Gman is better, but for stuff like Auto Cannons, Las Cannons, Etc the difference is more marginal. When I run Guilliman he isn't stood next to primarily Bolter Marines, for example. Sure, Calgar (or any CM) plus Lt is close for the heavy weapons, but for Bolters and Bolter Discipline, it's not even a competition. Guilliman is what made those Centurions and Stormraven kill off two units of Plague Marines in a single turn, not BD (well, partly BD, but mostly Guilliman otherwise they wouldn't have forced through nearly as many saves). While I can happily say that that combination made those Bolters damn effective, it's not indicative of the majority of Marine armies. Try that match up again with Calgar and an Lt, and the Death Guard would have had a lot more firepower coming back at them the following turn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353286-boltgun-beta-rule/page/6/#findComment-5245126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 I saw a video batrep on Tabletop Tactics - Smurfs versus Deathguard and welly Wellington those Cents were all up in their business !!! Watching that now, because I do like Tabletop Tactics TV, and while they certainly did do pretty well...they were Guilliman buffed. Angry words do a lot of damage with Guilliman rerolls! But Deathguard got a free pass fielding Mort... you didn't mention that now did you ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353286-boltgun-beta-rule/page/6/#findComment-5246114 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 But Deathguard got a free pass fielding Mort... you didn't mention that now did you ? Mortarion has literally zero impact on how BOLTER DISCIPLINE applies. So you're right, I didn't mention that, BECAUSE IT HAD NO IMPACT, Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353286-boltgun-beta-rule/page/6/#findComment-5246120 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 Doesn't Morty give his guys a -1 to hit or maybe improve their resilience? That would work toward countering Bobby's buffs? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353286-boltgun-beta-rule/page/6/#findComment-5246128 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 Doesn't Morty give his guys a -1 to hit or maybe improve their resilience? That would work toward countering Bobby's buffs? He gives them reroll ones to hit, and his Warlord Trait is a buff to Plague Weapons (of which, none are Bolt weapons). He has Psychic Powers than can do various things, including a -1 to hit one, but again...these aren't anything unusual. Guilliman's reroll wounds aura is, as far as I can recall, unique in the game - and incredibly powerful. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353286-boltgun-beta-rule/page/6/#findComment-5246140 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unseen Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 He gives them reroll ones to hit, and his Warlord Trait is a buff to Plague Weapons (of which, none are Bolt weapons). He has Psychic Powers than can do various things, including a -1 to hit one, but again...these aren't anything unusual. Guilliman's reroll wounds aura is, as far as I can recall, unique in the game - and incredibly powerful. *Almost* entirely unique. FW Chapter Master of the Lamenters, Malakim Phoros trades the usual chapter master buff of rerolling failed to hit rolls for rerolling failed to wound rolls. Get him and a captain standing together is the closest you can get to Gman, but you have to run BA codex with no other special characters, or relics beyond a really bad power sword that gains d6 damage vs greater daemons. So in short, Phoros is great, but the opportunity cost to run him is crippling. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353286-boltgun-beta-rule/page/6/#findComment-5246188 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 Forgot about Phoros, pretty understandably Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353286-boltgun-beta-rule/page/6/#findComment-5246192 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewarriorhunter Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 Shrike allows rerolls of all missed hits and wounds for Raven Guard units. My next list might include him so I can take a bolter swarm and see what happens. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353286-boltgun-beta-rule/page/6/#findComment-5246269 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumah Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 Shrike allows rerolls of all missed hits and wounds for Raven Guard units. My next list might include him so I can take a bolter swarm and see what happens. You're mistaken. He confers rerolls to hit (Chapter Master) and failed charge rolls for Jump Pack Infantry (Winged Deliverance). No wound rerolls. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353286-boltgun-beta-rule/page/6/#findComment-5246277 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 Shrike, as a Chapter a Master, does give reroll hits but he doesn't give reroll wounds. It's likely that you've confused that with Lightning Claws, including his own, which allow rerolls to wound. I have mentioned rerolls to hit before, but they're simply not as important as Guilliman's (or Phoros'!) reroll wounds. We're usually hitting on 3+ and regular Captains are almost as good anyway (reroll all on 3+ is approximately 12% better than reroll 1s on 3+, and either packs a significant points difference or a massive CP cost). Lieutenants' reroll 1s to wound is not even vaguely as effective as reroll all wounds - in the example of vs Death Guard, Guilliman is providing approximately (assuming a Chapter Master accompanying the Lt) a 21% increase in damage (post 3+ armour saves; pre-saves, it's a 30% increase, which is intense). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353286-boltgun-beta-rule/page/6/#findComment-5246279 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewarriorhunter Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 Thanks for the correction. I thought it was wounds as well. I haven't used him in a while because he's so expensive and squishy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353286-boltgun-beta-rule/page/6/#findComment-5246301 Share on other sites More sharing options...
War Angel Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 I thought I read something in here about Dorn.... are there rumors afoot or just speculation Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353286-boltgun-beta-rule/page/6/#findComment-5247220 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gothical Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 I think this rule is a neat upgrade to some underperforming units. It doesn't completely fix anything by itself, but knowing I can eke out extra value from camping Tacticals, bullet-catchers in Devastators and feel that ordinary Terminators are at least useful again is fantastic. This beta improves Marine performance against horde-style lists (even a few extra kills can make the difference via morale, especially if you can use target priority, feints or terrain to kill/hit units outside of leadership-buffing heroes. This could be very important if the initial reactions to Codex: Genestealer Cults prove correct (not a guarantee as initial reactions were wrong about Orks being overpowered!) and they are indeed adept at taking out the Loyal 32 + Castellan combo as that will shake up the competitive meta. One of the units I am excited to try with the beta rules is a Bike Squad with Attack Bike. With 2 Meltaguns, a Multimelta, power weapon on the Sergeant and a host of boltguns they can be a very flexible unit; they can kite and harass units at long range with a large number of Bolter shots, nip in close to slag heavy armour, or let off a rapid-fire volley and charge against massed units they can bully. With the additional range from the beta rule + bike rule you can even use a similar strategy to new terminators, shooting up one unit a distance away but charging a closer one, taking out 2 threats with 1 unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353286-boltgun-beta-rule/page/6/#findComment-5253440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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