Complete FW Custodes Rules (Beta, Official)

[Prot]

A lot if the new units have kind of bounced off of me. I still seem drawn to the traditional GW unit’s for regular games, except perhaps for the vehicles and dreads. Plus there’s always the Forgeworld cost of entry for those of us in Canada. Frankly I thought we’d see GW stores carrying some of this stuff by now.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

So far I’m only interested in the dreadnaughts. I don’t think the Saggitarium are competitive being a heavy support choice.

[wildweasel]

I strongly disagree with Geoff on Sagitarrum Guard being Troops -  Custodian Guard are the core of Shield-Companies and should remain that way. It would also mean Guard basically vanishing from lists. I can see the case for the cost of the guns coming down a bit (especially if the beam remains a d3 Damage and it causes MW to the bearer on modified 1's - it's a totally different game if it were a flat 3 Damage and they could Run and combo fire with MW's on unmodified 1's).

 

Admittedly I was listening at work, but it seems like he largely skimmed over the burst mode for the blaze weaponry?

 

I think he is underestimating the value of the Venatari and their ability to FLY - especially since they are ObSec. They aren't a hammer unit, they are harassers and objective grabbers. People are hung up on the lose of FLY during the charge, but it's still potentially a lot of effective free movement in the Move phase, especially on any board with ruins or other multi-level terrain. And, of course, it's another option to deep strike without committing CP.

ETA: I find it interesting he mentioned there having been some kind of bomb rule on the Orion from the internal version he had seen/tested. Lends some weight to my idea that this batch of rules is for "just models with the weapons that are shown on them and no bespoke flavor rules beyond a couple of obvious ones like the Termies and jump troops deep striking."

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

I mean it's clear that the dreads are in desperate need of a strat or two. Swordboard using his flamer in cc would make too much sense.

[wildweasel]

I mean it's clear that the dreads are in desperate need of a strat or two. Swordboard using his flamer in cc would make too much sense.

 

I'd spend 2 CP on that.

[Mr. Funktastic]

I strongly disagree with Geoff on Sagitarrum Guard being Troops -  Custodian Guard are the core of Shield-Companies and should remain that way. It would also mean Guard basically vanishing from lists. I can see the case for the cost of the guns coming down a bit (especially if the beam remains a d3 Damage and it causes MW to the bearer on modified 1's - it's a totally different game if it were a flat 3 Damage and they could Run and combo fire with MW's on unmodified 1's).

 

Admittedly I was listening at work, but it seems like he largely skimmed over the burst mode for the blaze weaponry?

 

I think he is underestimating the value of the Venatari and their ability to FLY - especially since they are ObSec. They aren't a hammer unit, they are harassers and objective grabbers. People are hung up on the lose of FLY during the charge, but it's still potentially a lot of effective free movement in the Move phase, especially on any board with ruins or other multi-level terrain. And, of course, it's another option to deep strike without committing CP.

 

ETA: I find it interesting he mentioned there having been some kind of bomb rule on the Orion from the internal version he had seen/tested. Lends some weight to my idea that this batch of rules is for "just models with the weapons that are shown on them and no bespoke flavor rules beyond a couple of obvious ones like the Termies and jump troops deep striking."

 

I agree with you on the Venatari, I think people are underrating them. The biggest gripe people have with them is the 3+ save but honestly given that the best options against Custodes in general are weapons like plasma and autocannons, they would be going to their 4++ or to a 3+ anyway (assuming you take the buckler) so it doesn't make a huge difference to me. With a 12" move and Fly, they can easily get into cover and get a 2+ save.

 

I also disagree with him about the Achillus, I think it's clearly the better option than the Galatus. Much better offensively and while upgrading to a 4++ from a 5++ is a big deal, I fail to see what kind of targets the Galatus wants to engage with only S7 on its Warblade that our other units can't do better. As it is, the Achillus can shoot everything when it deep strikes, hits harder in melee, and it's cheaper to boot.

[wildweasel]

Shoot my Venatari, please! Nevermind the Guard, Allarus, Wardens, Aquilons, or bikes bearing down on you!

And yeah, I rate the Achillus over the Galatus on the raw datasheets.

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

There is something super wrong with the galatus. Maybe they forgot to add str+3 to sword or are planning a stratagem for it like hits all models within inch but right now I legit would never take it as is.

[wildweasel]

FW really needs to sell the Aquilon weapons separate from the bodies...

[Ishagu]

I think the tanks are big winners, honestly. At 210 points for a flying, machine spirit tank with BS2+ it's great.

 

Taken in multiple you can maximise the effects of Auras too. I've just drafted a list with them.

 

Expensive months ahead!

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

I think the tanks are big winners, honestly. At 210 points for a flying, machine spirit tank with BS2+ it's great.

 

Taken in multiple you can maximise the effects of Auras too. I've just drafted a list with them.

 

Expensive months ahead!

You are not kidding. Having two with accelerators is going to be wicked fun.

 

So glad Fw tweaked the original beta rules so much. The 5++ is so much better.

[Ishagu]

Yeah I think it's two or bust. Maybe even 3!

 

Add a - 1 to hit aura and re rolls from Valores and it's quite the force on the tabletop.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think the grav tanks are really strong too - Ishagu which ones do you like the most ?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I strongly disagree with Geoff on Sagitarrum Guard being Troops -  Custodian Guard are the core of Shield-Companies and should remain that way. It would also mean Guard basically vanishing from lists. I can see the case for the cost of the guns coming down a bit (especially if the beam remains a d3 Damage and it causes MW to the bearer on modified 1's - it's a totally different game if it were a flat 3 Damage and they could Run and combo fire with MW's on unmodified 1's).

 

Admittedly I was listening at work, but it seems like he largely skimmed over the burst mode for the blaze weaponry?

 

I think he is underestimating the value of the Venatari and their ability to FLY - especially since they are ObSec. They aren't a hammer unit, they are harassers and objective grabbers. People are hung up on the lose of FLY during the charge, but it's still potentially a lot of effective free movement in the Move phase, especially on any board with ruins or other multi-level terrain. And, of course, it's another option to deep strike without committing CP.

 

ETA: I find it interesting he mentioned there having been some kind of bomb rule on the Orion from the internal version he had seen/tested. Lends some weight to my idea that this batch of rules is for "just models with the weapons that are shown on them and no bespoke flavor rules beyond a couple of obvious ones like the Termies and jump troops deep striking."

 

 

If they were a troop choice that would be great and helpful for a more robust battalion. I really think there are better choices for the points. Geoff is current ranked #1 AC player in the ITC - I wouldn't just ignore his opinion .

[wildweasel]

 

I think the tanks are big winners, honestly. At 210 points for a flying, machine spirit tank with BS2+ it's great.

 

Taken in multiple you can maximise the effects of Auras too. I've just drafted a list with them.

 

Expensive months ahead!

You are not kidding. Having two with accelerators is going to be wicked fun.

 

So glad Fw tweaked the original beta rules so much. The 5++ is so much better.

 

Welp, guess I better get that second one built and painted!

 

 

If they were a troop choice that would be great and helpful for a more robust battalion. I really think there are better choices for the points. Geoff is current ranked #1 AC player in the ITC - I wouldn't just ignore his opinion .

 

I'm...not though? I offered counterpoints and a way to boost them up to make them more appealing even as HS.

[Mr. Funktastic]

That's his point - if Saggitarum were Troops, nobody would ever take Custodian Guard. Making our only troop choice and the most iconic Custodes unit that everybody already owns obsolete is a terrible idea from a game design perspective. As they are, they're a perfectly serviceable anti-GEQ/MEQ backline objective holder option and if you need something for your Guard to do in the meantime, grab a Coronus, load them in and go to town.

[Charlo]

I'd buy another Caladius, but it would only be for 40k use (where you get more than 3 HS slots...) in 30k I'll always run Saggitarum, Caladius and Telemon so it's moot :P

 

Excited to try these out, completely new life into the Custodes now.

 

Deep Striking Saggitarum actually seems like a fairly decent idea now too. It gets you into DEATH BEEMZ range and is a lot of accurate dakka to suddenly appear. I'd definitely get a Shield Captain near them though to prevent the MW as much as possible.

[burningsky25]

Super excited for the surprise release of the full beta ruleset! The moment I saw the Achilles Dreadnought and accompanying Custodes releases I wanted to collect and play the army, and eagerly awaited the distant day they would get 40k rules.  Crazy it's finally happened! Excited as I am for the massive expansion of available options and general improvement of FW units I'm not past critically evaluating them.  

 

First off with Saggitarum as those are in the conversation - I really want them to work but I'm just not seeing them.  I understand the fluff reasons for not wanting them as troops but as Heavy Support I have a hard time justifying taking them.  I could take the odd minimum sized squad for holding objectives but that'd be it, sadly.  The heavy bolter shots simply don't offer anything unique in the codex - spears, axes, and Lastrum weaponry all offer very similar profiles and are widely available.  The beam profile just isn't very threatening with only D3 damage - 3 flat would be consideration but not even above average considering it's low strength.  A Caladius is cheaper than a four-man squad and is vastly better at threatening tanks, and even MEQ if wanted, at range.  

 

The Aquilon Terminators are looking good! Maybe . . too good.  In a world where an Aquilon Terminator with Solarite Power Gauntlet and Lastrum Storm Bolter is basically the same price as an Allarus Terminator with an axe I would rarely take the Allarus.  The Allarus have more varied shooting, and the subjective benefit of reasonable stratagem support, but at their job, killing heavy units, the Aquilon have a weapon with +2 strength and +2 AP compared to the Allarus.  That's a huge bonus against any T8 target or any T7 target without an invulnerable.  They will make mincemeat of Wraithknights that Allarus would stop short up against, as one particular example.  Not withstanding the fact the models seem much better scaled.

 

The Caladius Grav Tank is finally a worthy battle tank, hurray! All of the tanks got greatly improved statlines with saving throws that make sense and POTMS.  Custodes were sorely lacking long range anti-tank, and this appears to be it.  Gonna be honest I don't however get the allure of the Blaze Cannon.  The antitank shot is good but still nearly half as effective as the Illiastus, and the dispersed shot doesn't appear to have an ideal target.  

 

Lastly, the Orion Assault Dropship is actually amazing.  It provides a reasonable but not overwhelming amount of shots for it's cost, but has an amazing transport capacity and increadible durability.  Pairing the dropships innate -1 to hit with a banner will make it nearly untouchable first turn, but the true wonder of this vehicle is it could make Custodian Guard squads useful offensively.  My 3x3 Custodian Guard have always been useful, but I haven't played against a full gunline army yet and I don't see how they can be effective running up the board.  With an Orion you can take two 6 man Guard squads up the table for a guaranteed Turn 2 charge every time - the problem with Guard isn't their damage output, (in melee they outperform Allarus per point against GEQ, MEQ, vehicles, and knights) it's their mobility.  If you have a large transport such as an Orion to transport multiple troop squads you can bypass their limitations and turn them into something very frightening.

 

Looking forward to playtesting and collecting some of these amazing new options.

[balordazul]

I agree with a lot of what Geoff said in his video.  I had a few minor differences of opinions but we do need to remember something about Geoff.  This is his opinion based on what he plays against at a highly competitive environment.  Also the vast majority of us do not play at his level of the top end national events and place well.  So a lot of what he is looking at is how this would work or does it work in that environment.  The US, Austrian and European tournament scene or competitive play will have differences.  

 

So take his review in the nature that it was given and he did point that out in the intro of his video.  Your gaming environment is likely different than his as mine has gotten casual do to my home life.  

 

As my local area is about 50/50 on if FW is allowed I'm honestly not sure what to think.  I'm not a huge fan of FW resin as it is lightyears better than fail cast but lower quality then what I have gotten from smaller game companies.  If these models were GW plastic I would be much more interested.  I do feel FW was trying to fill out the range a little bit better and give options.  The two units that stood out to me as being my personal best picks would have been the Telemon and the Orion.  But the $425 + tax on the Orion is a no go for a single model made a of resin.

 

Again these are my opinions.

[kombatwombat]

I haven’t had a chance to play with the new rules yet, but after watching Geoff’s video I’ve been thinking them through.

 

The biggest winners for me are the Caladius Grav Tank with the Iliastus Cannons, the Telemon Dreadnought with twin Arachnus and the Achillus.

 

The Caladius’ Iliastus provide a good amount of long range anti-tank that we sorely needed in a reliable fashion. The Telemon is pricey, but those Arachnus guns will reliably kill a tank every turn. The Telemon’s Iliastus dropping to Str7 turns me off them; and I wouldn’t go spending those kind of points on a melee Dread. Which is where the Achillus comes in - 140pts for a Dread with those stats and a bit of dakka is a great deal, and the spear’s minimum damage mechanic is golden.

 

The Terminators aren’t bad, either. I wouldn’t necessarily say they’re better than the Allarus version so much as different. The Solerite Talon needs a bit of a boost though - no idea why you’d ever take it. I think it needs to be Dmg2 or D3 - that’d make it better against some targets than the Gauntlet but worse against others, which is the point.

 

I don’t agree either Geoff on the Orion - it has some nice guns and is good and durable, but it’s costed as a transport, and transports just don’t work for assault units this edition. You just know it’s going to move up the board, get surrounded by a fast unit, and then focus fired down. At which point your potentially thousand point deathstar inside goes up in a puff of smoke.

 

The Sagittarum, special weapons troopers and Agamatus are a bit meh for me. The Agamatus are just Vertus Praetors that give up their niche - massed chaff clearing - for weapons that are readily available elsewhere. Special weapons squads are good, but they’re essentially a troop unit sitting in the elites slot. It would be great if you could take some of the special spears in regular Custodes squads instead.

 

Sagittarum feel like a missed opportunity. Their heavy bolter profile is available elsewhere on better platforms and the Adrathic profile - even assuming it gets errata’d to flat 3 Dmg - just doesn’t gel with them. On the other hand, if the bolter profile was flat Dmg2 and the Adrathic flat Dmg3, armed with Misericordias and using the Deep Strike Stratagem they’d be a nasty little heavy infantry murderer.

 

The Coronus falls in the middling category for me, too. It’s nicely armoured and provides some solid dakka and mobility. Like the Orion though, it’s an assault transport, and the 8th Ed rules simply don’t mechanically support that idea. Move forward, get surrounded by Hormagaunts, shot/psychiced to death, wave goodbye to half of your army. A fix to the transport mechanic would make both of them great.

 

On the bad end sits the Galatus, simply because of its Str7 sword. What is that designed to target? It lacks the attack volume to do any real damage with such a low strength. I think it might be an oversight - Str User +2 or +3 would make it a viable option.

 

And finally the Venatari are a hard pass for me. They have all the potential to be a cool unit, but Sv3+ is a deal-breaker. It sounds like a minor thing, but compared to a Sv2+ it’s literally half as durable against the most common weapons. You just can’t have a T5 Sv3+ W3 model be worth 60-70points; too many points just die to simple weapons. I get that it’s thematic with their less armoured legs, but I think this is a case where you just have to make the rules bow to playability rather than aesthetics.

 

Just my opinion, I don’t pretend to be as good at this game as Geoff, but I disagree with him in a few places.

[Evilmerlin]

Where is this video?

[Loshkins]

So the Achillus vs Galatus. My first thought was that I liked the Achillus more, but I think you'll get more bang for your buck from the Galatus and here is why. 

The Galatus is a pain in the ass, it is bait that has to be dealt with and has a 4++ which is 50% more than the Achillus. It won't do too much damage, but at 155pts it will do enough and can mess up plans for your opponent. It will make them try and decide what do they want to do, its not an 'obvious' threat but also can't be ignored. The Achillus on the other hand can do more damage and has some specific targets that it wants to get to, which your opponent will see coming and will focus it down. 

In other words they are distraction units to a large extent and I feel like the Galatus does that better. Also, unless you're lucky, the Achillus shouldn't be relied on to take out heavy units by itself. 

[balordazul]

Where is this video?

 

Just in case others are asking and confused what some of the comments have been about.  Note that he is one of many member of the external balance team.  I have done something similar for another game company and it is a lot of work.  Also just because you are on the balance team most of the time you the devs are looking for proof and examples on how something is unfair or not working.  The devs get feedback from the balance team members but if that does not line up with what the devs believe or the management oversights goals are it is quickly ignored.  

 

Also referred to my comment above to get context about him as he is playing outside what most of us encounter.  

[Rinion]

Good note from the WHTV livestream today, legit GW main Codex team rules, and as legitimate as the Sisters of Battle Beta Codex and the Beta Bolter rule, and allowed at GW events, and not Forge World, so if Sister of Battle are allowed at ETC/ITC etc then these are too, or should be. Some people get uppity about Forge World rules use, but these are not. Only the physical miniatures are FW.

[wildweasel]

My highlight notes from the stream:

 

Beta went through their usual playtest groups and GW design group – just as the Sisters and Bolter Drill beta rules. These aren’t FW rules, they are Codex rules for FW models. (Hi,Rinion!)

 

Already taking feedback, considering making the Galatus flamer a Pistol type weapon as an example.

 

They considered a few approaches for the special spears: upgrade option to Troop datasheet, new unit type but didn’t have any background, so just did them as Guard in the Elite slot to basically get them out for testing. Considering as Troops based on feedback.

Captain versions of FW units: they want to have models easily distinguished from the standard unit, so making rules would depend on some sort of kit for them – they are aware of demand, “never say never”. 

 

Some adrasite weapons being 3 Damage and D3 damage is intentional – definitely want feedback!

Special spears on Captain – focus on the spears is testing them as weapons on the base Guard, then look at how they can more fully integrate into the list. An updated datasheet in the future is possible. The plastic Guard kit of course can take the spears and can built a Captain, so one is easily buildable out of there (and of course since we know the points for the SC and the spears, you can always test and fofer feedback based on that).

 

When translating the Coronus over from its 30K rules, James almost forgot its Transport Capacity of 12 there was to account for the Bulky and Very Bulky rules!

 

They seemed to largely dodge questions about the IA Talons book.

 

Considered Jenetia Krule as a generic 40K Sisters of Silence HQ but felt it wasn’t a just use of the model.