Schlitzaf Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 To elaborate on the title; basically every edition you have The Captain. Fifth Edition it was the Captain w/RelicBlade&Shield, then in Sixth&Seventh it was Cpt (Chapter Master) Hammer/Fist&Shield on Bike. Then in 8th that Captain has become Hammer&Shield Capt w/Pack. Players often lament how generic > special because customization. But let me through this out there. When in every edition every chapter even those not the “premier” at it has the “Captain”. One of the things about Templars specialist detachment it. Gives Templars their own Slamganius. For similar CP investment is about the same mathematically. RavenGaurd and CFists have their own, generally considered weaker variants of Slamganius. But I want to put this out there, how would you fix it so it’s not “The Captain”. That means the following needs to happen; 1) SShield cannot be the Best Secondary Weapon. Currently unless skimping on points (melee) Cpts always take SShield. 2) “Best” Damage; the reason THammer is used is that static 3 damage just outshines the unreliable 1d3. Before that relic blade, meant at initiative and wounding on 3’s. Sixth and Seventh the instant death and vehicle murder favored Fist/Hammer. Now tackling each of these issues how do we fix? Focusing on Exotic Weapons; Claws, Hammers, Relic Blade then lesser extent Chainfist & Power Fist. And then Storm Shield Problem. For exotic weapons. The first thing is equal access. That means Storm Shields should not prevent Relic Blades on Cpts. But now we get into the nitty gritty. Here are my fixes below; THammer is Same Lighting Claw reroll wounds etc and change it’s second half to if wielder only has MELEE, GRENADE or PISTOL Weapon, this models may make an additional attack with this weapon. If the model has two Claws it gains two attacks instead of just one. Relic Blades have a static 2 damage. Chain Fist keep same Power Fist potentially reduce it by a few points Master PowSword universal access The Shield Question; the Universal always taking Storm Shield. My fix is simple fix. Is well simple. If you do not take a Storm Shield allow the model to artificer armor instead. Other major fix is well making shooty Captains more useful. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353490-fixing-%E2%80%9Cthe-captain%E2%80%9D/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnkyHamHam Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 The sole reasoning behind "The Smash Captain" is that he has always, until 8th with reroll aura, been a beatstick character. His weapon load out has always just been defined by the meta. Currently it's knights. All that makes him better than a normal marine is for the most part combat stats. WS, Attacks, Wounds, and access to all manner of cutlery. It's no wonder people just slap the most efficient movement apparatus to him, stack on durability upgrades like the storm shield, and point him at the biggest baddy. He doesn't give a leadership boost, he doesn't add significantly to shooting. He doesn't change army building (anymore). He just fights. But to your point, he isn't going to change much until knights cease to be an issue. His D3 hammer gets around ion shields, and the jump pack and storm shield are just obvious cheap upgrades that enhance his utility. Edit: I forgot to mention reliability. You know with WS 2 and rerolling 1s to hit, that's reliable. 3++ invuln save is reliable. Jump pack mobility is reliable. Damage 3 hammer is reliable. He is just way better in this role than any other option GW has allowed for him. It is a shame tho. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353490-fixing-%E2%80%9Cthe-captain%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5244783 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Lets talk about hawt garbage HQs like Chappies okay right ?! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353490-fixing-%E2%80%9Cthe-captain%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5244785 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteySödes Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Lets talk about hawt garbage HQs like Chappies okay right ?! Agreed, I dont think "the captain" is really the issue. BA ones are damn strong but the rest are fine too. I certainly dont think my Jarl version is broken by any means. I think the rest of the HQs need to be elevated around him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353490-fixing-%E2%80%9Cthe-captain%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5244789 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schlitzaf Posted January 30, 2019 Author Share Posted January 30, 2019 So your okay with only captain variant being remotely viable is Hammer and Shield? The point of the thread is not nerfing the Captain. It’s make it so that the Captain has more than one viable loadout/weapon Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353490-fixing-%E2%80%9Cthe-captain%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5244791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword Brother Adelard Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Relic blade is alright, as is ToT. I think 'The Captain' is really low on the list of Astartes priorities right now. Why would we want to mess with the one thing that works? He's only super OP because almost every other character is garbage, like, Chaplains. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353490-fixing-%E2%80%9Cthe-captain%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5244793 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteySödes Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 So your okay with only captain variant being remotely viable is Hammer and Shield? I guess I disagree that its the ONLY way to run them, like UnkyHamHam said its kinda dictated by the meta. Ive ran hammer/combiflamer before and took an artifact for the sv++. Most HQs are more limited in their gear this edition, thats a fact. I guess i dont see why we would be much different. Like I said, if the Captain and Lt roles are beatstick aura caddies thats fine, lets create better roles for the others. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353490-fixing-%E2%80%9Cthe-captain%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5244795 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schlitzaf Posted January 30, 2019 Author Share Posted January 30, 2019 Because I mean it’s something that bothers me a lot? Also relic blade suffers from losing shield access. If Relic Blade didn’t have that issue. It be fine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353490-fixing-%E2%80%9Cthe-captain%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5244796 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 I had great success from the Solider's Blade and before that the good old faithful Relic Blade. It is notable though, that many competitive players use the Thunder Hammer Captain and it does rankle me somewhat also. If these Genestealer Cult and Ork hordes dominate competitive play then there is a real chance the Thunder Hammer might be relegated as choices go. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353490-fixing-%E2%80%9Cthe-captain%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5244810 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unseen Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 I don't understand, your upset because people realized 1 melee weapon is significantly better than all the others, so you want to nerf captains for some reason? If you want other characters to show up, make them not *worse captains*. But when all your characters are all basically beatsticks with minor aura abilities, the best beatstick is going to be the choice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353490-fixing-%E2%80%9Cthe-captain%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5244812 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword Brother Adelard Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Yeah, the answer to something being good should not be to nerf it, instead buff everything else to create actual choice! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353490-fixing-%E2%80%9Cthe-captain%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5244816 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 So your okay with only captain variant being remotely viable is Hammer and Shield? The point of the thread is not nerfing the Captain. It’s make it so that the Captain has more than one viable loadout/weapon All other variants are viable if you don't expect to be fighting Knights. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353490-fixing-%E2%80%9Cthe-captain%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5244916 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Yeah it's almost like if your fighting titans and :cuss it should be a different kind of game. World ending or something. I'm not good with wordy words. Chaplains are 'bad' because space marines are principally a shooting army and his buffs only work in assault. Dark apostle cheerleaders are standard guys in world eaters armies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353490-fixing-%E2%80%9Cthe-captain%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5244921 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Poor Chappie. For a 5 point bump why would anyone ever not choose a Captain instead. I can't see Captains changing much for competitive players. Bumping cost of a SlamCaptain or lowering cost on other equipment wont solve the problem. Like Marines other issues, players don't want cheaper Marines we want units that operate at an Elite level. That said, Marines at least have options. There have been any number of Codex that it has come down to either or and often neither being all that great. Id like to see Lightning Claws, Power Fist and Thunder Hammers all cost the same and perform different but equally. Finally, dump the Storm shield as an option except for special characters. Captains should have 2 Shield Bearers that soak wounds for them IMO. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353490-fixing-%E2%80%9Cthe-captain%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5244935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 I honestly don't think the Captain needs fixing. Some options maybe like Relic blades which are total crap do but not the Captain itself. There's a favourite loadout? Well d'uh that will always be the case. Everyone plays a Captain in their army? Well d'uh it's the guy who leads most Marine armies so that's how it's supposed to be. As others have said the better approach would be to fix other choices like Chaplains who currently are just weaker beatsticks with a weaker buff aura so overall just a weaker Captain. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353490-fixing-%E2%80%9Cthe-captain%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5244940 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 I think Relic Blades are good actually. They are cost effective weapons equivalent to other army's actual Relics, the true strength of the choice. You see, taking a Relic Blade means you hit on 2+ and wound on 3+ against most targets, whilst enjoying a D3 damage... whilst enabling you to take a different Relic for your army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353490-fixing-%E2%80%9Cthe-captain%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5244983 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Dunno I think ignoring Thunderhammers I'd still almost always go with Powerfists over Relic blades. Sure you get a -1 to-hit penalty but you wound T7 on a 2+ instead of a 4+ which is a huge difference and you can still carry a Stormshield as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353490-fixing-%E2%80%9Cthe-captain%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5244987 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Power Fists wound Vehicles on a 3+, while Relic Blades wound them on a 5+... That point is solid of course. I just don't much like my main anti tank being close combat characters. My army usually can deal with vehicles for my characters. Different strokes for different blokes eh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353490-fixing-%E2%80%9Cthe-captain%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5245008 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Power Fists wound Vehicles on a 3+, while Relic Blades wound them on a 5+... That point is solid of course. I just don't much like my main anti tank being close combat characters. My army usually can deal with vehicles for my characters. Different strokes for different blokes eh. Sorry I was thinking in Blood Angel terms. You're right with the 3+ and 5+ of course. :P The thing is that it's anti-tank but also anti elite infantry since it would wound T4 on a 2+ instead of 3+ (not BA terms this time ^^). And the Relic blade is still lacking the option to take a Stormshield unlike the Fist. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353490-fixing-%E2%80%9Cthe-captain%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5245062 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 I had great success from the Solider's Blade and before that the good old faithful Relic Blade. It is notable though, that many competitive players use the Thunder Hammer Captain and it does rankle me somewhat also. If these Genestealer Cult and Ork hordes dominate competitive play then there is a real chance the Thunder Hammer might be relegated as choices go. I don't think it will. Orks still pack in plentiful characters (Warbosses, Wartrikes) and vehicles (Morka/Gorkanauts, and many other decent vehicle options might pop up) which means there'll still be plentiful demand for anti-armour in a take all comers list. If they're bringing just a heap of Boyz, sure it might be less effective than a Relic Blade (although that comes with the opportunity cost of not taking a Storm Shield). For GSC, maybe. Again though, they can bring plentiful heavy hitting units that need to be dealt with (I wouldn't be surprised to see GSC bringing three Tank Commanders and the Jackal Prime for BS2+ tanks just raking everything down). Their infantry is relatively easily dealt with, unless we see some big changes, with other units because they're either t-shirt save Guardsmen, or Guardsmen. Or they're Genestealers and we need to bring Assault Cannons for them. If anything, I think we'll be better off bringing Vanguard with Lightning Claws or something and running them protected in a Rhino when facing GSC, as they're going to be tough to plan against. I think Relic Blades are good actually. They are cost effective weapons equivalent to other army's actual Relics, the true strength of the choice. You see, taking a Relic Blade means you hit on 2+ and wound on 3+ against most targets, whilst enjoying a D3 damage... whilst enabling you to take a different Relic for your army. RBs are good; but they're still not particularly great. While they might be equivalent to other armies' actual Relics, generally those Relics aren't taken very often anyway. RBs don't really give you an extra Relic slot, because they're not going to be chosen over the good ones we do have available (Teeth of Terra, Sanctic Halo, etc) - they're not saving you CP, realistically, they're just making your Captains a little bit cheaper but giving them less target options (ie, they can't really hunt vehicles with RBs). Power Fists wound Vehicles on a 3+, while Relic Blades wound them on a 5+... That point is solid of course. I just don't much like my main anti tank being close combat characters. My army usually can deal with vehicles for my characters. Different strokes for different blokes eh. Eh, I don't find my Lascannons doing much at the moment. Predators and Land Raiders are still pretty weak, and Devastators (or Long Fangs for me) are still just Marine bodies that can get hosed down quickly. I find my characters with Thunder Hammers are far more reliable as they can get up close, thanks to the character protection, and then they do their damage before retaliation. Plus, they're no slouches in melee, so it's not like they're utterly terrified of going in to combat against other units. I find things like Vanguard are better for dealing with units (and to a degree, characters) since they can output the volume of attacks that both TH and RB can't. A couple of Captains with RBs will cost about as much as a decently sized unit of LC VV, and the VV will put out quite a lot more attacks. Hell, even proportionally, our characters actually don't make a lot of attacks, but their quality is the selling point - which is why TH/SS has become the gold standard. I don't understand, your upset because people realized 1 melee weapon is significantly better than all the others, so you want to nerf captains for some reason? If you want other characters to show up, make them not *worse captains*. But when all your characters are all basically beatsticks with minor aura abilities, the best beatstick is going to be the choice. Exactly this. The internal balance is off, but it's not the fault of the Captain. Librarians are mediocre at best because Marine powers are generally crap; Chaplains are terrible because Captains buff an extra phase of the game and the buffing difference of the Chaplain is minimal; Lieutenants are literally just Captain-lite, which means they're basically only brought for their aura. The various Elite choice characters are also pretty lacklustre too. Ancients at least have a niche, but they need a significant unit to babysit; same for the Apothecary, but considering that they generally aren't worth as much as just bringing more of a unit you want to keep alive...why bother?; Company Champions are unfortunately just not worthwhile - they're nice and cheap, but they don't really do anything and are barely more resilient than regular Marines! Captains are so common because they actually reach the standards that are necessary to compete. All other variants are viable if you don't expect to be fighting Knights. I mean, kind of? Thunder Hammers are still the premiere character killers too. Relic Blades are ok, especially now they're 9pts, but RBs and PFs are still pretty lacklustre. I've been trying out Wolf Guard Battle Leaders with them instead of Thunder Hammers to shave off a few points and man, I just miss that 3D which is just...so much better than d3D. Finally, dump the Storm shield as an option except for special characters. Captains should have 2 Shield Bearers that soak wounds for them IMO. I was fully on board until this. No thank you. Storm Shields, especially on characters, are on of the few ways our characters can actually stand up to the wider game. If this were parcelled in with a whole heap of other changes making the majority of our Codex(es) worthwhile, then sure, but currently and with only minimal changes, no thank you. I like that I can actually bring something that is threatening. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353490-fixing-%E2%80%9Cthe-captain%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5245109 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 The problem with relying on a Captain for anti tank is it generally results in a dead Captain whilst also being reliant on close range to start chalking off wounds. Which means spending points on ensuring the Thunder Hammer Captain gets to the target. And means the target shoots for longer if a Knight. I'd rather save the points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353490-fixing-%E2%80%9Cthe-captain%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5245156 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 I think the issue with Captains presented in the topic is an example of imbalance with wargear. This is an issue that has always existed: A jump pack is 100% better than walking, it has no disadvantage. A Thunder Hammer is better than a power fist, and even if it costs more it's always worth it. This extends to other wargear as well. I remember when Grav Cannons were the only weapon worth taking. The Space Marine captain has more customisation than most other faction HQs and it's very hard to balance the wargear in conjunction with the special rules. Is an expensive melee captain even worth it if he can't take a Jump pack? Is the jump pack worth it if it didn't have the current fly rule? In the last edition it was all about bikes, for example. Any unit with lots of options will have these problems. A power fist on a tactical Sgt is still not a valid option for example, even at 9 points. Why is it even an option? Sure it's nice to be able to build different looking models but for the game it's un-necessary bloat. I think those extra options might be best in kill team, narrative games or a different skirmish off-shoot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353490-fixing-%E2%80%9Cthe-captain%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5245177 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Ed Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Said it before and I will say it again: Captains reroll hits. Lieutenants reroll wounds. Chaplains should reroll saves. Fixed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353490-fixing-%E2%80%9Cthe-captain%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5245495 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 I'd take a Chaplain in every list for sure if he had such an aura. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353490-fixing-%E2%80%9Cthe-captain%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5245538 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteySödes Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Said it before and I will say it again: Captains reroll hits. Lieutenants reroll wounds. Chaplains should reroll saves. Fixed. Ooh Id take one in TDA with a squad if they had that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353490-fixing-%E2%80%9Cthe-captain%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5245539 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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