Black Templars lore question

[Agamemnon_Ilias]

Just looked it up, you're right, religious zeal was mentioned there.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Ok, so what was it we believed in, with all of our faith and zeal before that? You can't really have faith in the original Imperial Truth, it's an oxymoron. 

I must admit my opinion has changed on this over the past year, there are times I don't like how it is deployed in the fluff, other TBA authors did a better job than Haley in conveying it. But the more I looked at the older fluff, the more I realised it was talking about very religious concepts, while omitting what the thing was we believed in.

 

[Agamemnon_Ilias]

It is debatable, if even the chapters, which originated from the legions still grasp the full concept of the Imperial Truth. There is no reason to venerate the Emperor as a god, it is sufficient to see him as the paragon of mankind, whose plan is still not implented.

 

The Black Templars see it as their duty to purge the galaxy so mankind can claim it. Sigismund was known for his dutiful attitude, so I don't see a discrepancy in the old lore. Sigismund is cited with "duty is its own reward" and while he knew the task could never be finished, it never stopped him from doing his duty. The zeal of Black Templars is also quite easy explained by our geneseed, because Dorn wasn't stoic all the time, he was also known for his flaring temper. So the Black Templars just show a more pronounced aspect of the characteristics of their primarch. Especially the heavily indoctrinated Space Marines in the centuries after the heresy shouldn't need 'additional motivation' by following a divine idol.

Last but not least: Honour. Sigismund and Dorn both valued honour, the Black Templars-theme is inspired by (admittedly religious) knight orders, an aspect I totally miss in the new fluff.

It wouldn't be unfitting for an honourbound chapter, to go through great length to fullfil its oaths. 

[Huggtand]

A big thanks to everybody for really good and interesting answers

 

I really liked the BT when they came out in third, but since then I had a 10 year break from 40k and focused on the Heresy, so I'm not really up to snuff on all the new lore

 

When I had a read up on the older books I also got the impression that their faith in big E:s plan to secure the galaxy for mankind. Not in the religious belief or in the Imperial truth but the drive to serve mankind's future. I totally agree that their zeal and temper comes from Rogal Dorn. When that stone cracks it´s pure magma that spills out 

 

Is there some interviews, articles or rumors that sheds some light into why there have been such a shift in the lore?

 

 

(I do understand why people sometimes sticks with their head-cannon. For me, there are no thunder wolves on Fenris, and the 13th company is exactly as described in codex Eye of Terror  )

[Sword Brother Adelard]

There are no wolves on Fenris.

[+Chaplain Matthias+]

 

 

 

 

Black Templars hated Psyker so much that they cant fight with them despite they used to be in the ranks of brother chapters. Now - Black Templars gene seed defect are the reason...(come on GW)

 

What are you on about? The only gene seed defects we have are the Betcher's Glad and the Sus-An Membrane, there is nothing about a gene-seed defect being linked to psychic powers, where are you getting that from? (also, there is not such Eldar story in the 4th Ed Codex.)

 

And them fighting alongside Iron Warriors and Eldar makes perfect sense in the context in which both those things happened. Magneric didn't really want to fight alongside Calcator, but if he didn't, the Orks would massacre them all, (and then he wouldn't get to kill Calcator himself,) it made sense because the Orks were the greater threat and Calcator and Magneric could still remember the fact they were once good friends.

Cadia makes sense as well, again, the Black Legion were the greater threat.

 

The size-cut retcon was itself retconned. So that's not an issue anymore, we're back in force again. GW have also always had us down as non-codex compliant, (except for like, second edition) what they sometimes get wrong is the terminology, which is probably because not all of their writers have the same obsessive knowledge of the lore as the fans. (E.g. saying we have a 'Company' on Vigilus, when we actually only fave 'Fighting Companies'

 

And how can you say we aren't favoured or don't have special rules? Look at Vigilus, we got awesome special rules when several first founding chapters who are represented on Vigilus didn't. (Look at the Iron Hands for example, those poor souls.)

 

You have a lot of beef Medj, with things which just aren't true?

 

If anything, the changes over the years have added depth to our character which makes logical sense, we're no longer these chainsword weilding angry charactures, who have these absolute rules which make no sense. The no psyker ally rule makes no sense in the fluff because we are all sons of Dorn, and all the rest of the Chapters have Librarians, if that rule was still a thing, we would have no Last Wall protocol.

 

It also struggled with things like the Navigators and Astropaths. Even on those topics, more recent fluff has seen a return to the past, but with more nuance, for example, in one of the early TBA books, (I think the first one with Beaumont, where I am pretty sure he was just a Marshal, not the High Marshal?) The Abhorrence's chief astropath makes his way onto the bridge, and Beaumont is proper livid about him even being in his presence, let alone daring to speak to him in person, but the Astropath has important news which cannot wait, but is still terrified. This is far better than the over-reverent treatment given to the chief Astropath of the Eternal Crusader in the book of the same name.

Re Librarians: The second paragraph of "Abhor the Witch" in the 8th Edition Space Marines codex states it's an in-universe theory that the reason for the Black Templars lack of Librarians is their gene-seed has somehow deteriorated.

 

As to the retcon for their reverence of Astropaths and Navigators: Of all the retcons, that's one that makes the most sense. If Black Templars hated ALL psykers, as a chapter they couldn't work because they'd be trying to murder their Navigators, as the way some (of the most loud) BT fans think the Templars react to ALL psykers is "stab, shoot, burn".

 

 

You should read our 4th edition codex. It's pretty clear, let me quote directly from the book:

 

Page 8:

"[...] Exactly how these Crusades communicate with each other is uncertain, though it is speculated that the Black Templars make use of such Navigators and Astropaths as have been sanctified by other organisations and are repentant of the curse of psychic powers. [...]

 

Clear as crystal.

 

 

That's why we can say that the recent changes regarding non enemy psykers are the opposite of what we were. Going from using something as essential for a fleet based chapter as navigators and astropaths that are made repentant by other imperial organisations, to actually REVERE them. Again, a quote:

 

Page 172 of my 6th edition SM codex -digital edition- copy pasted:

 

ABHOR THE WITCH

Outsiders mistakenly interpret the lack of Librarians within the ranks of the Black Templars Chapter, and the fury with which its battle-brothers slay Chaos Sorcerers, as

an intolerance of all psykers. This could hardly be further from the truth, for the Black Templars hold special reverence for Astropaths, seeing them as holy disciples who have

actually communed with the Emperor. Navigators are similarly honoured, for their psychic blessing allows them to see the divine light of the Astronomican and guide the

Black Templars through the Warp to deliver righteous retribution against the Emperor’s enemies.

 

 

Our lore was twisted 180º for no reason, I hope this point is clear.

 

 

And now: of course we have to suffer astropaths and navigators, because without them we couldn't crusade properly. But one thing is using something that you abhor because you have no other choice, and another entirely matter is that you REVERE what you are suppose to be hating.

 

And of course we don't want any battle brother to be a filthy witch, we abhor them remember? That's why you examine exhaustively every possible neophyte, to be completely sure that none of them carries such vile "gift"

 

 

 

My question is, what does it mean for an astropath to repent? Coming from someone who used to be religious, it was always explained to me growing up that repentance means you stop doing what you used to do. An astropath that repents of their witchery wouldn't be very useful. Unless it just means that astropaths are taught to feel bad about themselves and flagellate themselves when they're off duty. If that's the case then that makes sense. And what's more, I approve. Filthy mind-witches.

[bolvar]

@Chaplain Matthias: That's the case indeed. They should hate their powers as much as we do, but both them and us know that we need to use their powers. Being repent means that they loathe their condition (not seeing it as a gift, but as a curse, so they don't start thinking about opening rifts, using their vile powers against humans, etc...), but still use it in benefit of mankind.

 

 

In fact, that should be the standart treatment of sanctioned witches.

[Brother Tyler]

Subsequent to Codex: Armageddon, but prior to the Index Astartes article about the Black Templars, many players believed that the Black Templars would be the most likely Chapter to revere the Emperor as a god. The Index Astartes article changed that, of course, describing the Black Templars as being like other Chapters and revering the Emperor as the ultimate expression of Mankind (paraphrasing here). Personally, I'm not opposed to the Black Templars revering the Emperor in a religious fashion. I would have preferred if they had been similar to the Imperial Cult in deifying the Emperor, but not of the Imperial Cult. The change grew out of whatever lore direction the Horus Heresy fiction was imposing upon the background, with Sigismund's conversion and the logical (?) influence that would have on his Chapter.

 

One point that should be made, though, is that this change in lore actually made the Black Templars more distinctive from the other major Chapters. None of the other major Chapters worships the Emperor as a god. Only a handful of minor Chapters are known to follow this practice. This definitely sets the Black Templars apart (for good or for ill).

 

As for psykers, one of the complaints that many hobbyists voiced was that the unthinking hatred of psykers that many ascribe to the Black Templars was illogical. One can't hold the Emperor in reverence (whether that is simply respect or it extends up to worship) and view all psykers as inherently bad. From the perspective of basic functioning of an Adeptus Astartes Chapter, psykers are absolutely necessary if for no other reason than as navigators and communicators. So the lore changed to reflect this much more realistic view of the Black Templars. The reverence of the psyker was a major sea change, but, taken in the context of the Emperor being a psyker, might actually be logical. It's a jagged pill to swallow for those that subscribe to the BURN PSYKERS viewpoint, but might actually be tied into the overall change in the Black Templars lore.

 

Personally, I liked the Black Templars as dogged adherents of the decision at Nikea. I also like the Black Templars being relatively intolerant of xenos and heretics. That intolerance shouldn't extend to suicidal acts, though; so if it means that the Black Templars have to forego killing some foul xenos in order to achieve a larger mission, I can accept that (I haven't read the stories in which this happened, though, so I can't really comment on the execution therein). I'm not so inflexible that I can't accept a little change, though.

 

Ultimately, the core aspects of the Black Templars remain the same - zealous crusaders in eternal service to the Emperor. They don't follow the Codex Astartes, and never have (despite grumblings to the contrary due to being rolled into Codex: Space Marines).

[CommodusXIII]

The Index Astartes article changed that, of course, describing the Black Templars as being like other Chapters and revering the Emperor as the ultimate expression of Mankind (paraphrasing here).

 

Begging your pardon, but that's not in the Index Astartes article.  At least, not the one published in White Dwarf around the release of Codex: Armageddon - maybe there was a second article that came later?  The closest line in the article is that, "Sigismund had been chosen as the Emperor's Champion for his fervent faith in the Emperor and his undying devoting to Mankind".  The article emphasizes that the Black Templars are different from other Chapters.

[Closet Skeleton]

It really does seem that its a Black Library vs Codex issue. A lot of people (like me) don't read the novels, some people read the novels but don't read the codexes cover to cover, some people read the novels but don't care about the wargame.

 

The Imperial Truth was a Black library retcon with no existence before the HH novel series, its not mentioned in the codexes written before then. The fact that a bit of narrative world building with the purpose of showing how the Great Crusade veterans "are not the Imperium you're familiar with" is being referenced as something that should be relevant in M41 just makes my eyes roll.

 

Hating astropaths and navigators made no sense. The idea that the Black Templars could get away without basic mechanics of the setting is just bad world building. Normal marines see the Imperial Cult as heretics they have to tolerate, the Black Templars are incapable of tolerating heretics. Assuming the BT should follow the standard Space Marine religious attitude was always a contradiction.

 

Chapter size was always stated as variable, ambiguous and unknown so any 'contradictions' actually back up that fluff.

 

Sometimes I just feel that we get too caught up in the idea of 'culture' that we don't let characters be individuals. Maybe Beaumont hating astropaths and others bowing before them is just how different people express things.

 

I'd recommend reading the wikipedia article on anathema because to be that word is the best one for how the BT should see astropaths. As something that where there is no clean line between 'abhorrent' and 'holy'.

 

 

I disagree. I think it is very deliberate, read The Beast Arises, it is a big plot point that the BTs worship the Emperor, it is talked about as an open secret by the other chapters, and both Koorland and Vulkan make it very clear that they do not like it. Furthermore, when Marshal Magneric attacks the Orks in front of the Iron Warriors, the Ork Wyrdboy's warp attacks falter in the presence of the Templars prayers, enabling Magneric to kill him and in turn the whole Waaaagh.

 

 

The Ecclesiarchy of the 41st millenium only dates back to just after the Age of Apostasy, everyone should see religion differently in TBA as the Temple of the Saviour Emperor had only recently risen to dominance.

 

 

 

I also think it allows different writers to make small mistakes and get away with it. The 'Company' on Vigilus being a prime example:

 

It does let them 'get away with mistakes' but mistakes can also be a form of realism (and so can laziness in a sense).

 

 

 

Our lore was twisted 180º for no reason, I hope this point is clear.

 

 

The bigger change is that they started stating stuff as fact rather than as possibly inaccurate information.

 

I would have preferred if they had been similar to the Imperial Cult in deifying the Emperor, but not of the Imperial Cult. The change grew out of whatever lore direction the Horus Heresy fiction was imposing upon the background, with Sigismund's conversion and the logical (?) influence that would have on his Chapter.

 

The Imperial creed is stated to be very flexible and syncretic which makes sense as its themed after the medieval Catholic Church, so no one is really of the Imperial Creed.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

The Index Astartes article changed that, of course, describing the Black Templars as being like other Chapters and revering the Emperor as the ultimate expression of Mankind (paraphrasing here).

Begging your pardon, but that's not in the Index Astartes article. At least, not the one published in White Dwarf around the release of Codex: Armageddon - maybe there was a second article that came later? The closest line in the article is that, "Sigismund had been chosen as the Emperor's Champion for his fervent faith in the Emperor and his undying devoting to Mankind". The article emphasizes that the Black Templars are different from other Chapters.

It’s in the Index Astartes. Maybe the compilations but it’s in there.

[Brother Tyler]

It's a combination of the articles about the Black Templars (which didn't make them religious, in spite of hobbyist conjecture) and the Chaplains (which reemphasized how the warrior cults of the Adeptus Astartes are at odds with the Imperial Cult).

[CommodusXIII]

I went back through Index Astartes II, which is where both the Black Templars and Chaplain sections are.  The Black Templars section includes a reprint of the article from White Dwarf issue 248/249 and a reprint of the relevant section of Codex: Armageddon.  That's already been covered in-depth earlier in this thread.

 

The following section on the Chaplains does include a line that "the Emperor is recognized as their founder and the saviour of Humanity, but is most often regarded as an awe-inspiring man by the Adeptus Astartes."  This is about in line with what you remembered,  but it's a general statement about the Adeptus Astartes and not the Black Templars.  The article goes on to mention the peculiarities of a few chosen Chapters - the Dark Angels, Iron Hands, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves.  The Black Templars aren't actually mentioned at all, and given that the previous sections went to great length to describe the Black Templars' belief as being different from other Chapters, I don't think that the general statement on Astartes belief can be applied here.

 

I'm not trying to be difficult here - I, too, am trying to sift out "hobbyist conjecture" by going back to the actual source material.  Many posters have added what they remember of the lore.  So far, I still haven't found any sources that say that the Black Templars think that the Emperor is just a man, save for Helsreach.  Everything else (including the Black Templar Index Astartes article) features descriptions of the Black Templars engaging in religious activity focused on the Emperor, which doesn't match the typical Astartes belief system.

[Marshal Rohr]

Whatever you do, don't read the Ultramarines series or Angels of Darkness. Those chapters do a lot of religious ceremonies in there.

[Marshal Reinhard]

I'm not trying to be difficult here - I, too, am trying to sift out "hobbyist conjecture" by going back to the actual source material.  Many posters have added what they remember of the lore.

 

This is the basis for all academic research and I''m very appreciative of the effort even if I haven't partaken in this discussion. There's a lot of strong feelings what the Templars are supposed to be like (and I'm far from innocent of contributing to this), but maybe everything isn't shared beyoiond the confines of the subforum or certain author's fandoms. It's an important tidbit to remember, I feel.

 

Regardless, wherever there is smoke there is often fire, so its good to remember to consider that most impressions likely didn't spring from nothing. Helsreach for its part is a monumental source for a lot of people here, myself included. It's my favourite piece of 40k fiction so its hard to disregard. 

 

Regardless #2, I appreciate everyone's efforts of cataloging where the parts of our lore came from, as most of it sprang up during my decade+ long hiatus from the hobby. It's made for a very interesting read. 

[CommodusXIII]

 

Regardless #2, I appreciate everyone's efforts of cataloging where the parts of our lore came from, as most of it sprang up during my decade+ long hiatus from the hobby. It's made for a very interesting read. 

 

I'm in the same boat - I quit at the end of 3rd Edition, so all I've known until lately is the old lore.  Helsreach was news to me, but you're right - just because it doesn't fit with the rest of the lore, that doesn't mean it should be dismissed.  Everything is canon, but not everything is true.  And who knows what the truth really is, anyway...

[SpecialIssue]

The recently seemingly-dominant interpretation of the Black Templars being Imperial Truthers was a development/extrapolation of an older interpretation that filled a gap in the fluff that was left open for the longest time.

 

The 4th edition and earlier codiciis and material all said the Black Templars revered the Emperor and peppered their culture and views with religious language. But strangely, they never outright said that, unlike other Marines, the Templars worshipped him as a God. In fact, looking back at the number of chances this could have been said outright for many decades of material, you have to wonder why it was not.

 

At this point the 3rd-4th edition Space Marine codiciis and later were pretty clear on the general gist of Chapter Cults and general space marine beliefs. That the cults were variable and different, often ritualistic and 'primitive'; and yet most Space Marines don't see the Emperor as a god, but rather a great man that they seemingly "venerate" to a huge degree (more akin to ancestor worship). An interesting dynamic.

 

So when the Black Templars codex fails to state at any point, any difference from this baseline of Space Marine beliefs, I think most fans ran with this and assumed that while they were definitely amoungst the most zealous, overtly-religious chapters, the basic facts about space marines were unchanged, since nothing had been said explicitly.

 

And nothing since that point till 8th edition indicated anything otherwise, in fact what few concrete points we do have seemingly reinforce this view. The two largest were:

 

In the 6th edition allies matrix, which dealt with who and to what capacity the different factions could ally with one another, the Templars and Sisters were listed as Desperate Allies - the second lowest-ranking relationship possible, on par with Eldar and xenos and such. No official fluff was given why this was the case - so the only material you will find is discussion on the forums, and extrapolation of why (conclusion: largely because the Sisters are a technical breach of the intent of the Decree Passive, their roots in a heretical/traitorous organisation, history and critical role of the Templars ending the Apostasy, and that both factions are violent fanatics which have fundamentally different views on the nature of the Emperor). Digging up some ancient threads for reference:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/169033-black-templar-beliefs/
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254611-black-templar-and-the-ecclessiarchy/

 

And then of course there was Helsreach by A-DB which seems to have codified and was the high-point of this whole view of the Templars by finally having Grimaldus stating his distaste for Emperor-deified worship.

 

The Imperial Truthers have put another block of extrapolation on top of this by looking at the Horus Heresy series when it first came out (I remember, the Truth was a big surprise and new thing back then) and asserting that the modern Templars are Truthers simply because... not sure. I guess because they continue the tradition(s) of the Great Crusade.

 

Personally, I fall into the pre-Truthers interpretation, since that one's complexities and strange culture are the most interesting and (strangely) well-developed. The BT aren't just pastiches of a premade concept (Crusaders in SPAAACE) - their beliefs have been shaped by cause and effect in the 40k universe.

 

I think this whole thing is essentially a good look at how beliefs and doctrines can change and develop, how information can be lost and misinterpreted over time, people can see what they want to see in the vacuum of information, etc. A deliciously poignant meta narrative of the beliefs of the Black Templars and Imperium/humanity themselves.

[Marshal Mattias]

I'm impressed with your research CommodusXIII!

 

I personally fall somewhere along the line of thinking that SpecialIssue notes; explicit god-worship was historically absent, and while you could easily choose to extrapolate to that conclusion based on some of the terminology used in describing the fanaticism of the Black Templars, that leap was still itself only a fan-theory at best, and unsupported in the traditionally hazy canon.

 

Until described otherwise, the Black Templars by canon were as any other chapter, revering the Emperor-as-man in the same ancestor-worship style as their cousins (this "style" being a broad spectrum that encompasses many variant rites/prayers/rituals/doctrines). The zealous nature of the Templars, their devotion to the Imperium, and the unforgiving ruthlessness with which they purged mutant/heretic/xenos (ie "others" beyond the "Empire of Man" ideal) was the note-worthy trait. 

 

This is where it gets trickier...

 

The canon up until this point was essentially a framework on which many ideas and interpretations could be hung. The path-of-least-resistance would be that the endless-crusade-of-10,000-years chapter, dogmatic as they are, wouldn't be bizarrely worshipping the Emperor as a god because that would have to be explicitly stated, surely, given how abnormal that would be amongst all the chapters of the Adeptus Astartes? Because of that, fan-canon evolves based on the available information:

"Why are they so fanatical? They're basically still on a road-trip from the Great Crusades, I suppose they must hold to that Imperial Truth pretty hard, right? They're just really intense because they're still proving themselves!"

 

That makes the sudden explicit god-worship a confusing narrative shift, given how long it was absent from the established facts. Just because the theory can be applied retroactively, without breaking many of the original aspects of the chapter, doesn't mean it was always intended to be so. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck - it doesn't have to actually be a duck. (It might be a witch). As the Blood Angels are not just Vampires, the Black Templars are not just Teutonic Knights. 

 

(The whole "hates psykers but forced to use them" thing has always been a contradiction, in the same grimdark vein as all things within 40k. The great imperium of man provides freedom from the dark corners of the galaxy; freedom to slave in endless toil or maybe just get turned into a servitor   The Templars considered them abominations but begrudgingly essential to their purpose. Hurrah, the Black Templars are here to liberate our world! Oh dear, they've decided we are all heretics for allowing this to happen in the first place...*CHOOOM*).

 

While I overall preferred the non-explicit ambiguity of the earliest lore, I can easily hold to my own interpretations in this broad, shattered imperium full of narrative bias and propaganda. 

 

(This has been the most mature and nuanced discussion I have seen on this for a long time - makes me a happy Marshal )