Primaris Vanguard

[Johanhgg]

 

 

It’s great times being a marine-player. I don’t care if a loose 75% if all games, my miniatures look cool doing it

Frankly, that's all there is to my 40K gaming. :wub:

 

[seriade]

So rumored leaks as to what is in the box are:

 

Chaos side :
1 Master of possession : Basically just a sorceror that knows 2 powers. Has 5++ save for being daemonkin
2 Greater possessed : squads of 1-2, can separate after deploying together. S5, T5, W5, A5, give +1S to all friendly <Mark of Chaos> <Legion> Daemon units within 6".
1 Squad of Chaos Space Marines : 1 champion with axe, 4 with bolters, 3 with chainsword and bolt pistols, 1 with plasma gun, 1 with autocannon. No ability to switch out what's in there, so I assume they're monopose. The heavy bolter rumor picture might actually be for havocs? Not sure.
Obliterators : T5 now with 4 wounds. Fleshmetal guns are the same, but they now have Crushing Fists. S+1, AP-1, D3 damage. I assume there will be 3, since squad size is still 3.
1 Venomcrawler : 10 wounds, S6 (goes down to 5 and 4 per bracket). Armed with Excruciator Cannon (Assault D3, S+2, AP-2, D3 damage) and Eviscerating Claws (S+2, AP-3 and 3 damage), as well as Soulflayer Tendrils (S user, AP-2, 2 damage, does 2 additional attacks with this weapon). Blows up on a 5 and adds 1 to daemonic summoning rolls for Master of Possession within 6".

Space Marines :
Librarian in Phobos Armour : Librarian that can set up anywhere more than 9" away from enemy deployment zone and models. Also has a camo cloak, which adds 2 to saving throws in cover.
Captain in Phobos Armour : Same as Librarian, but is a captain. Armed with Master-Crafted Instigator Bolt-Carbine (what a mouthful). S4, AP-2, 2 damage, can target characters even if they're not the closest. Has combat knife too, same as Reivers.
Lieutenant in Phobos Armour : Same as above. Has Master-Crafted Occulus Bolt Carbine, S4, AP0, D2, units don't get cover saves against it. Also has combat knife.
Eliminator Squad : Squad of 3 . They have bolt sniper rifles, two different ammo types. Both are heavy 1, 36" and S4. Executionner rounds are AP-2, D3 damage and rolls of 6 do mortal wounds. Mortis rounds are AP-1, 1 damage, can target units that aren't visible, they don't get cover and add 2(!) to hit rolls with these rounds. Also have the abilities of the librarian.
Infiltrator Squads : Squad of 5, can have up to 10 with an Infiltrator Helix Adept. Armed with Marksman Bolt Carbine, Rapid Fire 1, S4, AP0, 1 damage. Each unmodified hit of 6 does an instant hit and wound. Helix Adept is basically an apothecary, it can heal or revive a model from the unit.
Suppressor Squad : Squad of 3, can deep strike with the grav-chutes. 12" movement. They have Accelerator Autocannons, heavy 2, S7, AP-2, 2 damage. Also, when they kill a model in a unit, that unit can't shoot until the end of the turn (so I guess it cancels out overwatch?).

 

with one conformation. 

https://imgur.com/Uiv7i1v

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

The marine stuff looks decent... even better than i thought. The chaos side.... ick. The oblits getting 6 shots each is filthy but all the other stuff seems like hot garbage. Maybe if the master of possession gets new psychic power it wont be so bad. And holy cow is that daemon engine bad. Im not even sure that thing is worth a heavy support slot let alone actual points.

[Race Bannon]

There are a lot of words with the Vanguard :P

[Marshal Reinhard]

Sniper bolt rifles appear to be almost identical to stalker bolt rifles, except they get fancy ammo.

 

As the sneaky snipe-y gits among the adeptus astartes, this fact ought to bother you lot :P

[seriade]

It seems like they are introducing specialist units to deal with problems marines face the sniper unit to deal with characters and the suppressors to address overwatch

[Panzer]

If they just could deal with characters though.

A unit of 3 Eliminators has only 3 shots. Assuming they have BS3+, which is very likely considering one of the ammunitions gives a to-hit buff, they hit on average only two of those shots. And since they are only S4 you wound on average only once against T4 and most likely only once against T3 but with a slightly better chance to wound with both (wounding both shots on a 3+ is not very likely). From there on they have to get through the saves. That's ~0.67 unsaved wounds that only do 1d3 damage against Marines aka on average ~1.3 damage. Against T3 Sv4+ assuming no invul it's at least 1.11 unsaved wounds which would result in ~2.2 damage overall. At those numbers I don't even bother to calculate the mortal wound on 6s.

That means a unit of 3 Eliminators would have to shoot at the same character for the whole game to kill their target on average. That's just aweful.

 

The other ammunition? Ignoring cover and shooting at targets without LOS is nice and hitting on 2+ is nice too but you in return you have less AP, less damage and no MW on 6s. That makes it overall even worse as even against the most squishy characters you'd do less damage (against T3 Sv6+ no invul it's ~2.67 damage with the AP-2 D1d3 round and only ~1.67 damage with this round).

 

I'm really underwhelmed by the Eliminators and hope the leaks for them are wrong.

[duz_]

I have to agree unfortunately

 

The profiles aren't great ...

 

The AP-2 autocannons is semi decent at least depending on how much the unit costs

[Dracos]

I still need to see if they fill a Troop slot but definitely would go with 2-4 squads of Infiltrators if they do.

 

Concealed Positions + SftS should create some hellacious shenanigans ;)

 

 

 

Damn shame nothing recently to hint at a light transport :(

[UnkyHamHam]

I feel like you can reliably say these guys are minimum 17pts. Have the exact stats and role as Intercessors, a "worse" weapon, and then a ton of abilities and utilities. I'd actually guess 20pts per model.

 

Edit: talking about Infiltrators

[Dracos]

at PL5, I'm guessing 18pts each.

[Brother Quixote]

Hmm ,I'm going to hold off on judgement until I see the full picture rather than leaked info, but honestly, there seems to be stuff to work with here.

 

Pairing the suppressors with some Vanguard Vets or close combat Termies could be fun.

 

As for the eliminators, expecting them to have instant killing character abilities was always expecting way too much.  GW loves there named character snowflakes too much.  The 'only' -1/-2 AP seems fine as most characters have an invulnerable save anyway, a -3AP would rarely have application. 

Honestly, the shooting things they can't see (slightly dreading the fluff on this one) seems highly useful.  Last squad member / wounded character hiding on an objective? BLAM! No problem.

In fact, pairing them with a Vindicare assassin as the first striker seems ideal for this reason.

 

Overall they seem to be putting out new Primaris units with support utility that require a bit more finesse to use.  This is not a bad thing in my opinion.

[MajorNese]

As the datasheets are leaked - seems fine to me. Not much in terms of firepower (still 90% S4), but the utility is nice. Especially as every single unit has either grav-chute or Concealed Positions, saving quite a bit of CP for SftS and giving us mobility/board control essentially for free.

 

Concealed positions on troops choices, combined with smoke grenades, makes a great objective camper unit per the Axioms of Victory discussion - get into cover, pop smoke, and enjoy you 2W, -2 to hit, 2+ armour ObSec guys with attached medic. Maybe the libby can buff them further, and if not, he's still in range for smite.

 

Also the infiltrators, like the captain, entirely prevent charging from deep strike with their omni-scrambler, making them a prime forward unit and speedbump. As per BRB, even the slamguinius with 3d6" charge may only declare a charge if within 12" of an enemy. With 12.00001", that's not happening.

 

Last but not least - we started a local Urban Conquest campaign yesterday. Meaning that units without clear LoS receive an additional -1 to hit. Combine with smoke grenades and RG to get a nice -3 to hit...

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

For reference: 

 

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

FWIW I think their strength depends highly on their cost.

 

5PL means they could be as cheap as 55 points and as much as 90 points for 5 (or more).

 

I think to be "competitive" they need to be 15ppm or less.

 

Edit: Full leak album here: https://imgur.com/a/OpJx7yg

 

In review, again, cost is king

 

I think the sleeper here might be the Librarian. Having concealed positions and Psychic Hood seems very strong, and you know the new discipline is going to have something strong in it worth casting. Assuming he stays cheap - an interesting note - the Primaris Librarian is 7PL/101 points with Force Sword, this guy is 6PL on his sheet. Could this be an indicator of further price drops?

 

I'm imagining a Battalion with 2 of these Librarians at 85-90 points a pop, and 3 Infiltrator Squads (5-Man), and it could potentially be a ~400 point Battalion for us with a LOT of utility baseline. Also depending on Eliminator/Suppressor costs, we could start to see more SM Brigades as well.

[MajorNese]

I agree, it depends on costs. A lot.

 

Suppressors are just T4 (unlike inceptors) and hit worse when moving, so they're essentially havocs with 2W and a jump pack, without ablative wounds. If they cost 45p like the bolter inceptors, no one will ever use them.

 

Libbys and infiltrators might be a usable disruption unit - deny deep strike (and deep strike charge) in a large area (spacing out the infiltrators), deny psychic powers like warptime, that might throw a wrench into some of the more annoying armies. Depending on the new discipline it might be possible to make the infiltrators even harder to kill, allowing the rest of the army to catch up and use the distraction for reinforcing board control and taking out some targets. Concealed deployment + beta bolter rules also means that infiltrators can rapid fire into the enemy army (even some units further back, like mortar teams) turn one. We'll see once the points are out...

[thewarriorhunter]

Regarding charging don't you have to be within an inch to successfully charge? Therefore rolling a 12 on the charge would make it successful since you now be .99999 inches away.

 

I realize that's an extreme fringe scenario but I wanted to check my understanding is the rules in relation to that data sheet.

[seriade]

You need to be within 12 to declare a charge though and that is the issue that it creates.

[thewarriorhunter]

Thanks for the clarification.

[Johanhgg]

Excuse me for a potentially stupid question. How will the rules for these models be distributed? In the box? A new primaris Codex? Free download?

[Ciler]

The photos we have seen are a paper document (book ?, booklet ?) that comes with the box for sure. After that, there may be free downloads (similar to what was done with reivers or the apothecary).

 

As for a new codex, people have speculated there may be one, since most of the current 40k factions now have a codex (except inquisition), but nothing is certain at this stage.

[Marshal Reinhard]

When the models become their own kits, they'll have some bare minimal rules in those too. But I expect a codex update or supplement shouldn't too distant.

[thewarriorhunter]

I still subscribe to the idea that the current marine Codex is going to be given the Index Treatment and we're going to see Codex:Primaris going forward. Once they flush out the line and all models are out I don't see why they wouldn't split them. That way oldmarines are still usable/viable but Primaris will be what gets supported going forward.

[seriade]

I would expect that all of this will be chapter 2 of vigilus 

[Race Bannon]

I still subscribe to the idea that the current marine Codex is going to be given the Index Treatment and we're going to see Codex:Primaris going forward. Once they flush out the line and all models are out I don't see why they wouldn't split them. That way oldmarines are still usable/viable but Primaris will be what gets supported going forward.

I don't to agree because of almost 30 years of dedication to an idea.

 

But a lot of signs are pointing in a direction away from that idea.