Primaris Vanguard

[Dracos]

Yeah that’s about 4 points too steep to run all Infiltrators. 0AP and autowound kind of wash for me and the range isn’t an issue but is a factor in favor of Intercessors. Still too much truly unknown. For now I’ll plan on 2 to 1 for Intercessor to infiltrator but I’d really like to flip that with a point drop. Would seem the Eliminator is more reasonable at 18.

 

I still have confidence Astartes is gonna be a force on the tabletop as things continue to roll out.

[Nusquam]

I like the Eliminators for what they do. 63 points for 1+ cover, -1 to get hit, and a bunch of ammo. They still put two bolter shots down range each. They can snipe min squads hiding out of LoS camping objectives. As well as threaten characters. They can't kill tankier ones outright but I've found even regular sniper scouts cause opponents to try to hide characters.

[ambit]

I like the Eliminators for what they do. 63 points for 1+ cover, -1 to get hit, and a bunch of ammo. They still put two bolter shots down range each. They can snipe min squads hiding out of LoS camping objectives. As well as threaten characters. They can't kill tankier ones outright but I've found even regular sniper scouts cause opponents to try to hide characters.

 

Yeah I think they can compliment a Vindicare and/or Mortar teams, adding to the weight of fire against units/characters that think they're safe.

[Dracos]

Question is .... Which is more effective? 4 Eliminators or 1 Vindicare? Or ... Is it better to mix and match?

[Panzer]

Yeah that’s about 4 points too steep to run all Infiltrators. 0AP and autowound kind of wash for me and the range isn’t an issue but is a factor in favor of Intercessors. Still too much truly unknown. For now I’ll plan on 2 to 1 for Intercessor to infiltrator but I’d really like to flip that with a point drop. Would seem the Eliminator is more reasonable at 18.

 

I still have confidence Astartes is gonna be a force on the tabletop as things continue to roll out.

 

I actually did some quick math and on average the auto wound only equals the AP-1 if the target has T5-7 and Sv4+. It's slightly better against T5-7 Sv5+ and worse and against T8+ Sv3+ and worse. Against everything else the AP-1 is better. The question is, how often do you actually want to shoot at such targets with Bolter instead of shooting at something they are actually useful against?

 

Hoping on 6s is just such a terrible mechanic.

 

However I then went on and added the +1 to hit from the new Warlord trait and checked the numbers again. Unfortunately it didn't really change much. The auto wound is now better than AP-1 against T5-7 Sv3+ but still worse against anything you want to use your bolter against (T3-4).

 

I didn't include any re-rolls but if people want me to I can do that as well. A higher pool of hits results in a slightly higher pool of auto wounds. It should be only a very small difference though.

 

Infiltration is a really great tool, especially on a unit that is either durable or cheap, hence why Scouts are liked as much, but that's pretty much all the Infiltrators have over Intercessors. Especially now with the Bolter Discipline beta rule where Intercessors can utilize their full damage output out of your deployment zone.

Due the utility of infiltration and the objectively existing utility of the 12" bubble (even though I still think people are overvaluing it quite a bit) but the reduced damage output both ranged and in melee, I'd put Infiltrators at only +1 or +2 points compared to Intercessors.

[Panzer]

I like the Eliminators for what they do. 63 points for 1+ cover, -1 to get hit, and a bunch of ammo. They still put two bolter shots down range each. They can snipe min squads hiding out of LoS camping objectives. As well as threaten characters. They can't kill tankier ones outright but I've found even regular sniper scouts cause opponents to try to hide characters.

 

I don't like them as actual snipers, but then again I don't like most sniper in the game currently, however I like them as cheap objective campers. With infiltration, a small 3 model infantry profile, camo cloaks, potential buff target for the psychic power and the ability to shoot at long range without LoS makes them ideal to hide them on some objective behind or on terrain.

Just for that I will add a unit to my army already and who knows, maybe my dice roll hot every once in a while and they actually manage to snipe a character in an appropriate number of turns (not talking about super squishy AM or GSC characters as their damage output against those is fine!).

[Brother Quixote]

Question is .... Which is more effective? 4 Eliminators or 1 Vindicare? Or ... Is it better to mix and match?

 

If you're going after characters you'll have to go all in, in my opinion, so take both.  Characters are just too easily hidden otherwise.

 

As for the Infiltrators, I'm not sold on their amazingness if the information we have is true.  They'll make deployment interesting against them if you rely on deep striking close combat, but not many armies do.  Scouts seem to do an adequate job at screening already.

[Nusquam]

I also like the idea that Eliminators can hide out of LoS and shoot things. It's not the most amazing output but it's great action economy; something marines struggle with at their points level. They can hide and consistently hit things while scoring.

 

Infiltrators are pricy, but the Helix and deployment options helps hide them and keep them functional. At least one squad will be nice to get the objective in no-man's-land during deployment and keep deepstrikes away from it. It's a common tactic to just drop on those type of objectives and pushing the range to 12" is great.

[ambit]

Games Workshop confirmed Reivers are getting the PHOBOS keyword.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/ayvrvr/if_anyone_still_cares_gw_confirmed_that_rievers/

 

Would be cool if they also get the knife fighter rule that the lieutenant in phobos armor has. Hit rolls of 6 score 2 hits.

[seriade]

The other thing to consider is the fact that everything comes out of these boxes usually drops in points when they come out in a proper codex.

[Nusquam]

I expect one. 10 bolter scouts are 110; you can get double for the price of one Infiltrator squad and cover more ground with 20 scouts using the standard 9" bubble.

 

12" puts you outside rapid for for most weapons but mechanically the scouts are better screens.

[Dracos]

 

Question is .... Which is more effective? 4 Eliminators or 1 Vindicare? Or ... Is it better to mix and match?

 

If you're going after characters you'll have to go all in, in my opinion, so take both.  Characters are just too easily hidden otherwise.

 

As for the Infiltrators, I'm not sold on their amazingness if the information we have is true.  They'll make deployment interesting against them if you rely on deep striking close combat, but not many armies do.  Scouts seem to do an adequate job at screening already.

 

 

Orks, Tyranids, Demons, GK and GSC.  4 of those armies have some pretty nasty assault range capabilities that make the 12" less attractive than I'd like and then what about Auspex?

[MajorNese]

 

Question is .... Which is more effective? 4 Eliminators or 1 Vindicare? Or ... Is it better to mix and match?

 

If you're going after characters you'll have to go all in, in my opinion, so take both.  Characters are just too easily hidden otherwise.

 

As for the Infiltrators, I'm not sold on their amazingness if the information we have is true.  They'll make deployment interesting against them if you rely on deep striking close combat, but not many armies do.  Scouts seem to do an adequate job at screening already.

Scouts did a great job back before the first FAQ. Mine never lasted much longer than a turn, but bought time or acted as real estate agents for other deep strikers.

 

Now that deep strike can't happen in turn 1, anyone relying on deep strike will just kill the scouts, if terrain permits, or even use them as slingshots with minimal overwatch to get close to the units behind. Infiltrators having a bubble that entirely prevents deep strike assault on them don't suffer from being charged by the units they should be preventing from charging. Don't forget that a min-sized squad can be spaced to cover 13" of board length (1" base, 2" spacing between) and the increased no-DS range means they may be in cover where scouts wouldn't be. If they do drop in points a bit, then they will become the go-to option. Otherwise, there's still the captain - if you want to plug a deep strike gap, have that guy walk around in that area. Can't be targeted, and has that 12" bubble too.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

@MajorNese

 

That trait that gives +1M and +1Advance could stack with Lias, thats pretty dope. Imagine if in the full release the Infiltrators get an assault bolter variant. Marines moving 10+D6" a turn and still shooting sounds pretty fun.

 

Not competitive mind you, but hilarious. It would be neat to see what a list that maximizes Primaris bodies and movement (with all Infantry) does on the board. You could easily have a list with 80+ 3+ 2W models that all can ignore the deployment zone and move 10+D6" a turn (and still shoot).

[Brother Quixote]

Some good points about the infiltrators, but one thing I have realised is you'll have to be careful not to deploy them too far forward too early as enemy deepstrikers could just decide to deploy on the line and walk it instead. (Which in itself may be what you want them to do!)

 

All in all if everyone is having trouble agreeing which is the better option, maybe they've been designed and priced about right.

 

Scouts definitely win on the objective camping front due to their weapon options though.

[MajorNese]

 

That trait that gives +1M and +1Advance could stack with Lias, thats pretty dope. Imagine if in the full release the Infiltrators get an assault bolter variant. Marines moving 10+D6" a turn and still shooting sounds pretty fun.

Sounds good, though I haven't kept up with the leaks, so I can't say more about that. Currently working abroad - working sundays until night at least compensates for a company-sized Shapeways shoulder pad order. That WL trait does sound hilarious if using it to advance Inceptors across the board for kiting reasons or capturing objectives - 14-19" on a Fly unit creates quite a reach.

 

All in all if everyone is having trouble agreeing which is the better option, maybe they've been designed and priced about right.

Agreed, different tools for different jobs. Though a lot of the Infiltrators discussion still hinges on if their points level will stay the same until after release/codex/CA, and if the multipart version will include other, potentially more useful options for certain situations. So far they seem usable, but too expensive to replace scouts in every situation.

 

So far, every primaris multipart kit included additional weapons compared to the DI version. Hellblasters and intercessors got heavy/assault versions and a one-per-squad option, and inceptors got plasma. It will be interesting to see what the full versions have - sniper rifles and camo cloaks are already done by Eliminators, the classic BP/CCW combo we already got on reivers, so something short-ranged like shotgun or the Rumor Engined small flamer would make sense.

[ambit]

Someone on Reddit pointed out an interesting combo with the new Phobos librarian.

 

Give them the Tome of Malcador so they can have Null Zone from the Librarius discipline, and Temporal Corridor.

 

Starts 9 inches away, moves, then moves again with temporal corridor, and pops null zone. Suddenly there are no invul saves, and your shooting support can shoot whatever it wants to pieces.

 

If you have a list with 3 librarians, you can cast null zone in your turn, then at the start of the opponents psychic phase, use Empyric Channelling to cast temporal corridor and put your libby in amongst the enemy psykers. Need to start within at most 18" to get in range though. Would be stronger if he could take a jump pack.

[Nusquam]

I can see that combo working well in medium sized games. All larger one I imagine having sufficient screens to the what you want to null zone. Would do well against aggressive things that have invuls like daemon and daemon engines though.

[MajorNese]

He who walks faster than anyone...he who is called "Johnny the Walker".  

 

Requires 2 psychic powers to go off, will only work against an opponent one time to know the trick, and I'm not sure if GW will allow the mixing of disciplines - it was probably never part of the plan, as it even specified that Astartes with the relic can't choose another discipline than their usual. Adding another discipline only accessible by guys that can still take that relic seems like an oversight.

[mertbl]

The problem with Null Zone is its models within 6" not units. So you might clip several units of demons or custodes but the opponent will just use his other models invul.

 

Someone on Reddit pointed out an interesting combo with the new Phobos librarian.

 

Give them the Tome of Malcador so they can have Null Zone from the Librarius discipline, and Temporal Corridor.

 

Starts 9 inches away, moves, then moves again with temporal corridor, and pops null zone. Suddenly there are no invul saves, and your shooting support can shoot whatever it wants to pieces.

 

If you have a list with 3 librarians, you can cast null zone in your turn, then at the start of the opponents psychic phase, use Empyric Channelling to cast temporal corridor and put your libby in amongst the enemy psykers. Need to start within at most 18" to get in range though. Would be stronger if he could take a jump pack.

[GreyCrow]

4 points tax is worth it considering you set up on most of the battlefield.

 

You can choose where you wanna be and save a few turns of being shot at while getting to the objectives.

I think they designed this as a blob strategy tbh, where you just park all your guys up for a very brutal engagement right off the bat. That's why they have attached apothecaries.

 

At 2000 pts, you can have a double bataillon of 

- 2 Captains

- 2 Lieutenants

- 4 x 10 Infiltrators (incl helix)

- 2 x 5 Infiltrators (this bullet point and the above one are split in 2 groups of 25 each with Captain + Lieutenant for the rerolls)

 

And (either of the following) :

- 12 Suppressors

- 18 Eliminators (assuming the Cap is at 6 per unit in the further datasheets like the Inceptors/Aggressors)

 

You basically play on disorganization. You can get a turn 1 charge for your blob and suppress overwatch on the bigger blobs with the Suppressors or do actually good fire support with the Elimiators.

 

It's actually a great army for a turn 1 gank where you basically pin down the opponent and prevent him from moving forward due to how close you are at the get go!

The natural 6 to hit results in a wound is actually MASSIVELY strong.

25 models in Rapid Fire range Turn 1 deal 8.3 automatic wounds to any target, and that's before rerolls from Captains and Lieutenants. After saves, that's like 3 wounds to big guy slike vehicles, Imperial Knights or Mortarion.

 

With just Captains and Lieutenant reroll, the blob of 25 getting the Alpha strike will kill 8.8 Tactical Marines in shooting turn 1.

Same point count of Intercessors will deal about 9.2 damage to Tactical Marines with a single shot. (counting lieutenant rerolls and captain rerolls too).

But you can get a Turn 1 charge by deploying 9" from the enemy DZ, moving 6" and be within 3"-6" charge range and kill a further 8.6 Marines.

That's 17.4 Marines wound turn 1 versus 9.2 Marines wound turn 1 for same amount of Intercessor points. Same points cost, a further 88% extra efficiency for a 30% increase in price.

 

It's freakishly good if you ask me. This build is going to be the build of choice for players looking for an aggressive playstyle where most of the engagement and the fate of the battle is decided turn 1.

 

A 2000 points list can kill 34 Tactical Marines on turn 1 and that's without counting the fire support from the Eliminators or the aggressors.

 

For players who want to play fast and furious close range, this is the highest quality meat on the market.

For players who want to play more tactical and more longer range, Intercessors are the way to go.

[lash144]

Am I the only one who wants to combine the +1 to move / advance / charge with aggressors? :D

Moving 10.5 on average a turn and firing without -1 sounds pretty hilarious.

[Helias_Tancred]

I have a 1500 point Raven Guard force I'm working on and that is exactly what I plan on doing! I'll kit-bash their backpacks a little but with antennae, etc ... but yeah my Raven Guard are getting primaris elimimators ;)

 

 

 

Yep, that works for me. Thought of starting a Brotherhood of Nod GSC army
 

Meanwhile ...

These look awesome and perfect for RG
Im on the fence about the robed libby ... I would have preferred less LotR motif

I also hope these aren't more Elite choices... I already have to take a vanguard detachment in my standard list...

 

EDIT:

OMG! Perfect use for 

 

Mor Deythan squad!! Counts as Eliminators???

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Raven-Guard-Mor-Deythan-Strike-Squad

 

I've wanted to find a use for these guys forever!

 

[TheBattenBurger]

I'd like to put forward a challenge for the title of Speediest Bois against the current speed runners of Warhammer 40K, Ravenwing, Ork Speedfreeks and Eldar.

 

Behold the Speediest of Raptors:

A basic Infiltrator's move is 6".

Lias Issodon makes that 7" with +1 to their Advance move. So around 8" minimum if they advance, maximum 14"

One of the new Space Marine Warlord Traits also has the same ability with a different name, meaning that squad of Infiltrators now has an 8" move base with +2" +D6 if they advance. Anywhere between 11" and 16".

Slap them with the new Psychic Power and they get to move twice, must advance both times and roll 3D6 and pick the highest for their advance roll.

Meaning a minimum move of 24" and a maximum potential move of 32" from one ground base, non bike, non Jump pack squad in one turn.

 

I imagine they know parkour

[MajorNese]

 

With just Captains and Lieutenant reroll, the blob of 25 getting the Alpha strike will kill 8.8 Tactical Marines in shooting turn 1.

Same point count of Intercessors will deal about 9.2 damage to Tactical Marines with a single shot. (counting lieutenant rerolls and captain rerolls too).

[...]

But you can get a Turn 1 charge by deploying 9" from the enemy DZ, moving 6" and be within 3"-6" charge range and kill a further 8.6 Marines.

That's 17.4 Marines wound turn 1 versus 9.2 Marines wound turn 1 for same amount of Intercessor points. Same points cost, a further 88% extra efficiency for a 30% increase in price.

 

So...in case bolter beta rule becomes final, your calculation doesn't add up any more, if intercessors are in range turn 1 - 9.2 marines become 18.4, meaning one more marine casualty and more wounds in the squad. Obviously the intercessors don't keep up with the deployment and CC lockdown utility, but on the other hand have much more firepower across half of the board and make use of the -1 to hit for RG.

 

So all in all, I don't consider them to be extremely powerful, but a worthy option. It all depends on what you need them to do, and what the rest of the list looks like.

 

 

And the movement buff psychic power just sounds hilarious combined with Issodon and the WL trait. Have some dudes around them with assault weapons, and just catapult them across the board to cap objectives or place speedbumps. Or catapult a huge no-deepstrike bubble into the enemy backfield to prevent them from reinforcing their own position. "Infiltrate, isolate, destroy" as Issodon's rule puts it...