Primaris Vanguard

[jpwyrm]

I'm really psyched by the new models and theme GW chose for this Primaris sub-faction. My Raptor heart is happy at the thought of deadlier sniper bolt rifles

[Nusquam]

More rumors for Vanguard/Primaris Wave 2:

 

Lite jetbikes with power knives and Ap-1 storm bolter equivalent with -1 to get hit

 

Lite repulsor hover tank

 

Psyker hunting psykers

 

I really like the jetbikes rumor.

[Panzer]

More rumors for Vanguard/Primaris Wave 2:

 

Lite jetbikes with power knives and Ap-1 storm bolter equivalent with -1 to get hit

 

Lite repulsor hover tank

 

Psyker hunting psykers

 

I really like the jetbikes rumor.

 

Where do these come from? Jetbikes and a small vehicle is something that got speculated and wishlisted a lot all over the internet already so I'd take it with some salt.

[MajorNese]

Yeah, there have been a lot of rumors, and nothing concrete so far. It would make sense, but that doesn't mean by a long shot that the rumor is true - see the AdMech transport rumor. And Cyraxus, the Imperial Armour equivalent of the plastic thunderhawk. Rumored for 3 different year's March already...

 

As for the infiltrators, I'm not sold on the output in any way. Autowound on a 6 is mathematically worse than the intercessor's AP-1 against most relevant targets, and except for that, these guys are regular tacs - not exactly a unit instilling fear in anyone these days. Just now at 2W/2A at 9ppm more, for almost the same ranged output. Their true value is utility and disruption, not firepower. We have to turn elsewhere for that.

[Nusquam]

Rumors are just rumors, the source had other insight that made it seem worthy of discussion at least. The rumor engine has a skimmer of some sort so it's a possibility. I would love me stealth jet bikes.

 

The infiltrators have utility and are unique in the rules interactions with the 12" bubble, but I don't think it out weights their cost in scouts. Double the bodies is a significant advantage in more aspects of the game; plasma, auto cannons, and other D2 things lost points efficiency against 1 wound scouts that can be broken up into MSU to prevent moral overkill. Sure you can assault or double tap them, but you kill max of 5 11-point models total, the cost of the plasma gun.

 

Even outside double tap of standard plasma that 11 point plasma can one shot a 22 point model. Now it's made back double it's points. Same with auto cannons at range.

Layering the MSU of the scouts can chump block things like Death Company. DC would love super jump turn 1 to massacre infiltrators since they would kill much of their points easily.

 

Even adding cloaks and sniper rifle keeps the points durability efficiency in favor of the scouts.

[Panzer]

Yeah but there are various degrees of believability for rumours and this comes out of nowhere without any source and additionally is close to all the wishlisting so it's right at the bottom of the scale. ^^

[thewarriorhunter]

So what is the source. I hesitate to trust anything without a source being leaked.

[Nusquam]

Source was /tg/ and yes it's not the best but has had accurate rumors before. The post was in a similar style to previous correct rumors and had the same style and offered parallel insights that make it seem credible. So from personal experience I'm not going to knee jerk dismiss it but won't get my hopes up either. The source said they worked at GW and got pretty detailed about things that would require being caught up on all released knowledge to an impressive amount. Which any could do but hey, it was a lot to be fair. Only time will tell.

 

I would bet on Primaris jetbikes eventually for sure. This rumor or not.

[Panzer]

Well 4chan also had lots of fake rumours. I'll ignore it for now but will keep it in mind in case we get rumours or leaks indicating something similar.

[duz_]

Alright lets move back to what we know and what may or may not occur. :tu:

[Lord Raven 19]

The infiltrator 12" no deep strike ability puts the deep strikers at -1 to hit for shooting. I will laugh at manta striking tau. 

[thewarriorhunter]

The infiltrator 12" no deep strike ability puts the deep strikers at -1 to hit for shooting. I will laugh at manta striking tau. 

 

I was thinking the same thing, this really plays in wells with our Strat to help them survive DS shooting attacks. If placed right it could make them very difficult speed bump units that your opponent will have to chew threw if they want to get to your back lines.

[Panzer]

The infiltrator 12" no deep strike ability puts the deep strikers at -1 to hit for shooting. I will laugh at manta striking tau. 

 

Unfortunately no T'au list that tries to be anywhere near competetive manta strikes anything. They just drown you with dice from their castle on the other side of the board. :P

[MajorNese]

 

The infiltrator 12" no deep strike ability puts the deep strikers at -1 to hit for shooting. I will laugh at manta striking tau. 

 

Unfortunately no T'au list that tries to be anywhere near competetive manta strikes anything. They just drown you with dice from their castle on the other side of the board.

...which I made good experiences with, playing infantry/bikers only. Removing a third of their castle's output without spending a point can be frustrating for the Tau guy - hundreds of dice, and Ork precision. Just without ork toughness or meele.

[SyNidus]

I'm genuinely confused on what to do. I've been out of 40k for some time now. And while i love the vanguard models' look and feel, i kinda worry that they'll be underpowered.

 

The irony of course is that the other option is go GK. Who are also underpowered, but freaking cool.

[Panzer]

I'm genuinely confused on what to do. I've been out of 40k for some time now. And while i love the vanguard models' look and feel, i kinda worry that they'll be underpowered.

 

The irony of course is that the other option is go GK. Who are also underpowered, but freaking cool.

 

I'd say wait for the first FAQ/Errata after the box/mini codex and for the BIG FAQ that should come soon. Afterwards it might look much better for the Vanguard Primaris. If Infiltrators still suck by then, just go with the regular Scouts for Troops and add some Eliminators for flavour and no-LoS shooting shenanigans.

[GreyCrow]

I'm genuinely confused on what to do. I've been out of 40k for some time now. And while i love the vanguard models' look and feel, i kinda worry that they'll be underpowered.

 

The irony of course is that the other option is go GK. Who are also underpowered, but freaking cool.

 

Hello sir, let's look at Turn 1 damage

 

Take a 570 points core of Infiltrators (25 with 2 Helix), deployed forward in early positions, shooting at MEQ for reference :

- Shooting : Rapid Fire Turn 1, 50 shots, 20.83 wounds including the auto wounds from 6s to Hit, 6.94 MEQ wounds post save

- Charging : 50 hits (not counting Sgts here), 5.56 MEQ wounds post save

- Total Turn 1 shoot + charge : 12.49 MEQ wounds inflicted post save

 

Same for Intercessors, 570 points is 33 Marines :

- Rapid Fire or Beta Bolter rules : 66 shots - 11 MEQ wounds inflicted post save

- Long Range : 5.5 MEQ wounds inflicted post save

 

Either the Intercessors are able to double tap and deal similar amount of damage to Infiltrators.

Either the Intercessors are not able to double tap and the Infiltrators deal 2.25x the amount of damage.

 

You also add the following benefit for each unit :

- Infiltrators : up the board Turn 1, tie up units in combat Turn 1 to reduce overall enemy shooting

- Intercessors : reduce casualties taken Turn 1 due to outranging the opponent, more models before unit becomes unsuable

 

And add the following drawbacks :

- Infiltrators : Much less models than Intercessors, reducing long term tanking capabilties

- Intercessors : Have to footslog, so can be slowed down by fast moving chargers reducing board control, are more vulnerable to LOS blocking due to less deployment options

 

Conclusion :

 

If we look at 40k with your Troops defining how you drive your army supported by auxiliary support units, then it's a different playstyle vs Intercessors.

 

You aim to collect and control a critical position Turn 1, with less meat on the board, and strive to deal as much damage as possible, to reduce incoming fire, off supported by unreliable heals from Helix.

 

Intercessors are more prone to a more methodical warfare, where Turn 1 is less critical, and when you want to maximize your meatgrinder over time (damage dealt/damage taken).

 

At 977 points, you can have the 2 following lists as examples :

 

Infiltrators :

- Phobos Captain

- 10 Infiltrators with Helix

- 10 Infiltrators with Helix

- 5 Infiltrators

- 9 Suppressors (assuming we can increase their unit size to 6 in an upcoming datasheet)

 

Intercessors :

- Primaris Captain

- 10 Intercessors with Power Fist

- 10 Intercessors with Power Fist

- 10 Intercessors with Power Fist

- 6 Plasma Inceptors

 

The 2 lists work differently. The Infiltrator list is aimed at maximizing turn 1 damage with the Rapid Fire + Charge of the Infiltrators, supported long range by 18 autocannon shots to destroy overwatch.

Deploy the 25 Infiltrators in a blob, with the Captain. Play them as a single unit at the beginning before splitting up later game to grab objectives.

Concentrate all the objectives at minimum distance from each other, ideally in a place where you can use LOS to reduce incoming fire, or to narrow down the amount of melee guys you will face at any given time.

 

The Intercessor list is made to play them all as a blob, slowly moving up and slowly whittling down the enemy. Inceptors are here to come at a critical moment like Crisis suits, mostly in counter deep strike deep strike or counter rush if deployed on the board behind LOS blocking terrain.

Same objective deployment.

 

Infiltrators operate in much risker environment due to rushing so close, but they're only efficient in you commit brutally for the fight Turn 1 (and set up to come out destroying more than you lose thanks to your support).

 

Intercessor gameplay is slower and more methodical, less risky because range affords you some room for error and some protection from ranged weapons due to LOS blocking.

[Dracos]

I'm genuinely confused on what to do. I've been out of 40k for some time now. And while i love the vanguard models' look and feel, i kinda worry that they'll be underpowered.

The irony of course is that the other option is go GK. Who are also underpowered, but freaking cool.

You e been around long enough to know today’s chumps tomorrows champ. Except Eldar (always chumps ;)).

 

Honestly if I don’t have 20 Intercessors ready to prime, I’d go all Infiltrators on my Troops. Points will come down (some) eventually and with SftS I think deployment shenanigans could emulate (not reach) GSC levels of what the heck. Don’t get me wrong I like Intercessors and doubt I’ll ever run less than 10 but definitely would lean toward Infiltrators. The damage output isn’t much but durable and I have Aggressors and Hellblasters for pain management ;)

[Nusquam]

It's not so much the Infiltrators don't have teeth and board control. It's that they are T4 2W 3+ models for 22 points a piece that die very easily in this edition. They suffer from classic marine rules-bloat; too many rules stacked on one fragile body. Fortunately they have one built in defensive rule with the scrambler but other units that are much cheaper make back their points when they inevitably kill the unit. GW struggles to price things based on survivability.

 

The infiltrators can live longer in midfield cover staying still to make use of Bolter Discipline(which itself is an example of GW trying to fix Marines action-economy for their points-level), but only when facing armies that don't have reach. Tau, BA, GSC, Nids, all flavors of Eldar, and Orks would love the Infiltrators to be close. More so if they have first turn. Those that shoot can ignore cover or have a lot of high AP and those that melee have the ability to get a turn one charge deployment zone to zone so midfield would be cake. For example 10 Kraken Genestealers, an extremely common staple, are 120 points and would kill ~8 models in a single charge and make almost double their points back. It seems only against other flavors of Marines does deploying aggressively with them present an actual advantage only because they have the same weaknesses.

 

Tau were the first opponent I thought Infiltrators would be good against and only combo'd with Suppressors to reduce overwatch volume. However Intercessors can't threaten anything of value in a typical Tau castle. Lines of firewarriors will always be in in the way. 10 of them are only 70 points and their damage output is easily more than doubled with simple characters and stratagems that still cost less than the Infiltrators.

 

I could go into each army but the point is easy enough to make, marines just cost too much for doing so little as a whole and the rules Infiltrators have aren't as practical as they seem outside of Maelstrom. Scouts still exist are are much more points efficient; they equate to one infiltrator dual wielding bolters and on the other side using weapons that have more than D1 on them makes it inefficient to shoot them with far more weapons than Primaris.

 

It's not to say they're straight garbage, they just cost too much in practice.

 

Efficiency aside and onto tactics..

 

Against Orks you'll want them to screen your other units against Da Jump and avoid being to close to have more turns of shooting the green tide. If you deploy in the middle they'll just get overrun.

 

Against Nids, same thing. Kite and maneuver.

 

GSC have such an array of army styles and no one seems to be the most popular. One thing is great is that Infiltrators can block Ambush combos (can't>can/you may). So that's spicy at least.

 

Guard you can probably be aggressive towards like other marines. Being ground pounders, tanks cant fall back and shoot. You just have to get over the infantry speed bumps.

 

Eldar of all versions will always have the advantage in shooting, points spread, actions, movement, assault, psychic, the works. You' just going to have to MSU to soak up shooting and cause overkills of 5 man units(this is an example of trying to work action economy in your favor) rather than kills of 10 man and play the mission while maintaining target priority.

 

Tau excel under 30" in killing everything in the game; I had a fresh Knight Warden go down to 1 wound from firewarriors and supporting fire overwatch on my top of turn one in a 1750 match. Riptides only did a few wounds and the warriors did most of them. Assaulting  a fresh Tau army is just going to get all your marines killed on your turn. I had considered Suppressors trying to shoot a squad per model to minimize the overwatch, but if you don't get first turn everything in your midfiled will die anyway. It's just too risky, even in the new foramt where you deploy everything at once; a seize will make you lose. Eliminators and Supressors will be great against them however. The Eliminators can pick apart drones that hide out of LoS to bodyguard Riptides. Then Suppressors can chew up suits with high volume to force Savior Protocols en masse. Turn two will be causing as high of a body count as possible again, making full use of out -1 to get hit. At 30"+ the weaponry that can reach Primaris are much more costly and a more favorable trade for us in points-spent-to-kill our Primaris. Then turn three you can drop, if we're sticking with the Vanguard theme, Reivers in to assault the diminished fortress. If you encounter the occasional Tau that still deepstrikes then you'll want Infiltrators close to keep them away from better targets.

 

If infiltrators were 20ppm they would just be a sidegrade and plain good. 19 would make them costed aggressively. Reivers need Concealed Deployment and Knife Fighter if we're being honest.

[Busby]

Nusquam, that was a really thoughtful response.

 

Other people have had awesome responses too, but this one yelled me realize a few things.

[Panzer]

I don't agree on the point costs you put up there but everything else is spot on.

[Dracos]

I don't agree on the point costs you put up there but everything else is spot on.

I’m just curious. What point cost would you agree on? I haven’t taken close look and would like to see them tested in a tournament environment, but at the moment 19 sounds competitive compared to Intercessors. Time will tell of course :)

[Panzer]

 

I don't agree on the point costs you put up there but everything else is spot on.

I’m just curious. What point cost would you agree on? I haven’t taken close look and would like to see them tested in a tournament environment, but at the moment 19 sounds competitive compared to Intercessors. Time will tell of course

 

 

Assuming the beta rule of no deep strike turn 1 stays in places I'd put them at +1p compared to Intercessors at best, so 18p. Probably cheaper than Intercessors even since apart from their no-ds aura and infiltration they are worse in every aspect.

Now let me explain, since infiltration is a great tool usually, but without DS turn 1 it's MUCH less needed to have a unit in the middle of the board before the game begins and in fact against melee armies is actually a terrible idea unless they are on top of some ruins or whatever since instead of slowing the enemy down or giving you an advantage they actually give them a speed boost by providing a free charge and consolidation move (learned that the hard way with my Stealth Suits and also used it against my opponent a few times with his Nurglings). Sure you can deploy them less aggressively and still outside of your deployment zone but that also reduces the value of deploying outside of your deployment zone in the first place.

Likewise the anti-DS bubble is nice, but much less needed without turn 1 DS. Sure there are some few armies who can reliably charge out of reserve turn but those are rather rare and often struggle otherwise anyway so it's really just a niche application. The regular no-DS bubble usually is enough after one starts to spread out and get on objectives. Now if they had some proper ranged weapon they'd be great to sit on backfield objectives which is often less well protected in a Marine army unless a gunline is played but unfortunately they only have a basic Bolter with a small special rule which is worse than AP-1 against most targets. If they were cheap enough it might be interesting to take one or two units just to protect against such armies but not for the price of an Intercessor unit imo.

 

You pay a lot for infiltration and the anti-ds bubble but they aren't universally good and should already equal out the worse offensive capabilities (no AP, less range, no power weapon on the sergeant, no grenade launcher) instead of increasing the cost that much, especially if the Bolter Discipline rule is here to stay.

At 19ppm I'd still rather take Scouts over Infiltrators in a mixed list and Intercessors in a pure Primaris list.

[Nusquam]

They did say (in a podcast was it?) They're getting more weapons in the multi part and hinted to look at the HQs. They'll probably be built like the Intercessors bolt weapons with a frame and attachments that dictate type. Instigators would be great. They are worse stalkers by 6" but if that keeps them as a free trade I'm for it. The 6" less won't matter as much with concealed deployment. It adds value to them camping objectives and being a scramble screen for backfield units like Devastators. I honestly expect a points drop too.

[ShinyRhino]

In the games I played this weekend Infiltrators would have saved my bacon time and time again against teleporting Deathwatch, deep striking hand flamer Seraphim with some 12" range strat, etc. Pushing a good number of units outside 12" foils charges and Rapid Fire shenanigans.