Vanguard Primaris Marines - Intro Thread

[Panzer]

Welp I was wrong. These guys are second company and not a new organization within the chapter or 10th company. I’d really like to see how a Primaris Chapter organizes because I have no clue. 2nd company is bloated and has everything. Everything seems so ad hoc and weird.

I think Jes talked about how Primaris use different armour for different task instead of having a whole different unit stand ready for whenever they might be needed. So for example your 6 battleline squads (60 Primaris) could act as Intercessors in one battle and act as Infiltrators in another battle. Your 2 ranged support squads (20 Primaris) can act as Hellblaster in one battle and as Eliminators in another battle. Or a mix of different units of course.

That way while having tons of models painted as 2nd company it's actually way less bloated than it seems at first.

[Boldthreat]

I think you have the right of it. I don’t like it, but that’s how it seems to be. It makes sense, Space Marines are elite and by the time they are in the battle companies they should be experienced enough to do this.

 

As a self admitted Primaris fan boy, I have to admit this annoys me slightly. I would want to keep my Vanguard units in one dedicated company. Preferably in a reserve company that could be attached to the battle companies as needed or used as a single attack force in its own right. I would want my battle companies to focus on the stand up fights. Admittedly that’s simple thinking on my part. Anybody got a copy of that Nova Codex Astartes? Cause it seems Guilliman is playing fast and loose with the rules here lol.

[Panzer]

I think you have the right of it. I don’t like it, but that’s how it seems to be. It makes sense, Space Marines are elite and by the time they are in the battle companies they should be experienced enough to do this.

 

As a self admitted Primaris fan boy, I have to admit this annoys me slightly. I would want to keep my Vanguard units in one dedicated company. Preferably in a reserve company that could be attached to the battle companies as needed or used as a single attack force in its own right. I would want my battle companies to focus on the stand up fights. Admittedly that’s simple thinking on my part. Anybody got a copy of that Nova Codex Astartes? Cause it seems Guilliman is playing fast and loose with the rules here lol.

 

Nothing stopping you from making your own fluff if you have a homegrown chapter. In mine Reivers are Veterans in the first company and are representing the Sanguinary Guard (for now)  for example. ;)

[Disruptor_fe404]

As a self admitted Primaris fan boy, I have to admit this annoys me slightly. I would want to keep my Vanguard units in one dedicated company. Preferably in a reserve company that could be attached to the battle companies as needed or used as a single attack force in its own right. I would want my battle companies to focus on the stand up fights. Admittedly that’s simple thinking on my part. Anybody got a copy of that Nova Codex Astartes? Cause it seems Guilliman is playing fast and loose with the rules here lol.

There really isn't anything stopping you from doing this, assuming it's your Chapter anyway.

[MARK0SIAN]

One thing has been bugging me about the Phobos armour. Am I missing something or is it (in a fluff sense) just straight up better than Tacitus armour? If so, why don’t regular intercessors just wear it too? What have I missed?

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

One thing has been bugging me about the Phobos armour. Am I missing something or is it (in a fluff sense) just straight up better than Tacitus armour? If so, why don’t regular intercessors just wear it too? What have I missed?

 

It's all the same armor. The article says Mk X is the frame that all Primaris wear. Phobos is just Tacticus with most of the plating removed. Gravis is just Tacticus and Phobos with as much armor plating installed as possible. The article says any time you see people wearing Phobos pattern weight armor it's because the Astartes deliberately chose to go as light and quiet as possible, such as with Vanguard members and Reivers. You COULD theoretically have an Astartes in regular Tacticus level armor or even Gravis stomping around with those loadouts, fluff-wise. It's just why would you? Same reason you never see someone in puffy bomb disposal armor in the military acting as a scout or sniper.

[Burni]

It’s just a case of the rules not matching the fluff I think. My headcannon on this is that Phobos would be a 3.9+ save while Tacticus would be a 3.0+ But you can’t roll decimals!

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

One thing has been bugging me about the Phobos armour. Am I missing something or is it (in a fluff sense) just straight up better than Tacitus armour? If so, why don’t regular intercessors just wear it too? What have I missed?

It's all the same armor. The article says Mk X is the frame that all Primaris wear. Phobos is just Tacticus with most of the plating removed. Gravis is just Tacticus and Phobos with as much armor plating installed as possible. The article says any time you see people wearing Phobos pattern weight armor it's because the Astartes deliberately chose to go as light and quiet as possible, such as with Vanguard members and Reivers. You COULD theoretically have an Astartes in regular Tacticus level armor or even Gravis stomping around with those loadouts, fluff-wise. It's just why would you? Same reason you never see someone in puffy bomb disposal armor in the military acting as a scout or sniper.

But this is what I mean though, if they both offer the exact same protection (3+) why would you ever wear Tacitus? Why not just always wear Phobos and have the same protection but also the stealth/noise bonus?

 

Gravis I get because it increases toughness but the other is just a puzzle.

[Marshal Loss]

Yeah that thought had occurred to me as well. In terms of tabletop performance it does just function as a better suit of armour, which is a bit silly, but I can understand why they didn't want it to be a 4+.

[Panzer]

Just once more a problem of the game using a 1d6 system I fear.

[Robbienw]

Because the rules are an abstraction, and each value is a range.

 

If you used a d10 or d12 for example, tacticus armour would have a slightly better save than Phobos.

 

It’s like strength 4 marines. We know for a fact in the background Primaris are physically stronger than classic marines. But in the game they are both strength 4. This doesn’t mean they are all exactly as strong as each other, it just means they are all in the strength 4 range.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Different power armor types still translating to the same save throw even though massively differing in how thick the'yre depicted as being has been a thing since forever. Sisters of battle is probably the earliest example I can think of. I remember it really bugging me that their armor was as tough as space marine power armor despite being way more form fitting than the latter. Why was space marine armor so big and clumsy looking by contrast if it offers no additional protection I thought. Was even worse when 3rd edition rolled out, and terminator armor was reduced to just being a 2+ (the baked in invul save would come later)... and then they then introduced artificer armor which was also 2+. At least in that case difference in quality could be used as explanation (though terminator armor itself was always described as best of the best one of a kind....). 

 

But I'm getting lost on tangents. Massively different looking armors offering the same save roll is nothing new to this game, or it being seemingly incosistent. You just had to accept it.

 

Accepting phobos and tacticus both being 3+ is child's play.

[Ishagu]

Yeah we get too hung up on this stuff. Maybe the Phobos is marginally less protective and a bit more quiet but not enough to lead to a rule disparity. Simple as that

[MARK0SIAN]

Well, seems a bit lazy to me. I get they can’t do much with a D6 system in regards to the save but they could’ve given some additional rules to the armour to make a difference.

[Robbienw]

You could, but then you’d need to do that for all different thicknesses of power armour, could get messy!

[PiñaColada]

I mean, they might adress this later on. Give all Phobos units a 7 or 8" move and give all Tacticus/Gravis armoured units a new rule making them ignore the first point of AP. 

Something like that would still work with the D6 system but creates a pretty biug difference in how they're played and their durability

[beefeb]

I just look at it and enjoy it for what it is...not everything needs every possible aspect explained and ruled up otherwise the game would become far too unwieldy.  I just go with what i like.  My 3rd company ultras (all Primaris force) just got a 4th company recon/Vanguard force to accompany them....its fun!

[Arkangilos]

Well I mean Mk III and VIII both have the same the armor save as all the other mks, so it’s not anything new.

[Ishagu]

Well I mean Mk III and VIII both have the same the armor save as all the other mks, so it’s not anything new.

This. No point trying to pick holes now, it's been this way for years.

 

Visually MKIII and MKVI couldn't be more distinct.

[OttoVonAwesome]

For me it's more comparison of the new primaris units and the chaos stuff. The obliterator is very cool and the suppressors are. . Okay. It's always a worry when a release thread is full of ideas of how to fix a new model. There's been a lot of excitement about primaris wave two here and in various facebook groups for a while now and I don't think anyone was really clamouring for more reiver variants. Comparatively the chaos models tick all the boxes. I think even Ishagu wasn't 100% positive about the new primaris stuff and that's almost impossible! Let's hope he turns out to have been right about those jetbikes.

If by fix you mean the guys who want to turn the models into frankenstien kit bashes that happens every single time theres a release, wich is fine everyone has thier own tastes I even did it once sort of... Left the extra groin and shoulder armour off centurions and put the squad and chapter markings on the thighs, but anyway theres alot of people myself included who think this wave looks amazing the way it is especially those Suppressors.

[OttoVonAwesome]

One thing has been bugging me about the Phobos armour. Am I missing something or is it (in a fluff sense) just straight up better than Tacitus armour? If so, why don’t regular intercessors just wear it too? What have I missed?

What they do on a battlefield I imagine make tacitus alot better for intercessors. They don't infiltrate they form the battleline so being quiet and less encumbered isn't an advantage compared to extra plating and the fancy backpacks are more of liability as they are gonna be getting pounded by artillery shrapnel and the like, they also get far less downtime as they are also being deployed where the fighting has already started so a sturdier suit is again more of an asset. 

[Subtleknife]

 

 

 

One thing has been bugging me about the Phobos armour. Am I missing something or is it (in a fluff sense) just straight up better than Tacitus armour? If so, why don’t regular intercessors just wear it too? What have I missed?

It's all the same armor. The article says Mk X is the frame that all Primaris wear. Phobos is just Tacticus with most of the plating removed. Gravis is just Tacticus and Phobos with as much armor plating installed as possible. The article says any time you see people wearing Phobos pattern weight armor it's because the Astartes deliberately chose to go as light and quiet as possible, such as with Vanguard members and Reivers. You COULD theoretically have an Astartes in regular Tacticus level armor or even Gravis stomping around with those loadouts, fluff-wise. It's just why would you? Same reason you never see someone in puffy bomb disposal armor in the military acting as a scout or sniper.

But this is what I mean though, if they both offer the exact same protection (3+) why would you ever wear Tacitus? Why not just always wear Phobos and have the same protection but also the stealth/noise bonus?

 

Gravis I get because it increases toughness but the other is just a puzzle.

Maybe it just costs more and is more time consuming to make. Therefore you don't equip everyone in it all the time.

[Antarius]

 

 

 

One thing has been bugging me about the Phobos armour. Am I missing something or is it (in a fluff sense) just straight up better than Tacitus armour? If so, why don’t regular intercessors just wear it too? What have I missed?

It's all the same armor. The article says Mk X is the frame that all Primaris wear. Phobos is just Tacticus with most of the plating removed. Gravis is just Tacticus and Phobos with as much armor plating installed as possible. The article says any time you see people wearing Phobos pattern weight armor it's because the Astartes deliberately chose to go as light and quiet as possible, such as with Vanguard members and Reivers. You COULD theoretically have an Astartes in regular Tacticus level armor or even Gravis stomping around with those loadouts, fluff-wise. It's just why would you? Same reason you never see someone in puffy bomb disposal armor in the military acting as a scout or sniper.

But this is what I mean though, if they both offer the exact same protection (3+) why would you ever wear Tacitus? Why not just always wear Phobos and have the same protection but also the stealth/noise bonus?

 

Gravis I get because it increases toughness but the other is just a puzzle.

Maybe it just costs more and is more time consuming to make. Therefore you don't equip everyone in it all the time.

 

Also, it's just a fluff/abstraction thing. It's not like people in-universe are going around thinking of 3+ saves and what their T value is etc.

 

Overall, I'd like power armour to give a better save (or be more resistant to modifiers or something like that), but that's another story.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

The difference between the armors could also be environmental. Tacticus may be completely superior in space, or in an environment that space marines body couldn't handle.

[Marshal Rohr]

The idea of quiet power armor is ridiculous on its face, but slighter more mobile power armor that lets you crawl through smaller areas or reduces your silhouette while moving/observing is reasonable.