Vanguard Primaris Marines - Intro Thread

[Sete]

So a chapter armour went from a relic almost impossible to produce, revered and repaired throughout the millennia to a mass production item?

[Ishagu]

So a chapter armour went from a relic almost impossible to produce, revered and repaired throughout the millennia to a mass production item?

The age of badly supplied chapters is over so yeah, pretty much.

[MARK0SIAN]

 

Well I mean Mk III and VIII both have the same the armor save as all the other mks, so it’s not anything new.

This. No point trying to pick holes now, it's been this way for years.

 

Visually MKIII and MKVI couldn't be more distinct.

To be fair GW picked this hole themselves. MK III and VI are not described as being intended for different roles, one is not a straight up improvement over the other and, more importantly, there aren’t a series of psychic powers and abilities that affect MK III but don’t affect MK VI.

 

I know we have to accept a lot of stuff with the suspension of disbelief but at the moment I just can’t see a marine wondering which armour variant to wear for a mission and ever choosing Tacitus over Phobos because he gets all the stuff the Tacitus gives and the bonuses from the Phobos. I don’t even mind really if there’s no in game difference, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect GW to provide a fluff reason (as others have here) as to why Tacitus might be a superior choice in certain situations.

[Marshal Reinhard]

It makes no sense that all power armor was impossible to reproduce in the first place. Older armor marks and terminator armor sure, but at the very least mk7, mk8, grey knight power armor (mk9?) was being constantly produced.

[Blindhamster]

Fluff wise tacticus is more durable with thicker armor. Already stated and you're simply choosing to ignore it because it doesn't have a rule to reflect it.

[MARK0SIAN]

Fluff wise tacticus is more durable with thicker armor. Already stated and you're simply choosing to ignore it because it doesn't have a rule to reflect it.

But then the fluff also says Phobos offers the same protection as normal armour so I’m not ignoring anything, the information we’ve been given is contradictory.

[Arkangilos]

 

 

Well I mean Mk III and VIII both have the same the armor save as all the other mks, so it’s not anything new.

This. No point trying to pick holes now, it's been this way for years.

 

Visually MKIII and MKVI couldn't be more distinct.

To be fair GW picked this hole themselves. MK III and VI are not described as being intended for different roles, one is not a straight up improvement over the other and, more importantly, there aren’t a series of psychic powers and abilities that affect MK III but don’t affect MK VI.

 

I know we have to accept a lot of stuff with the suspension of disbelief but at the moment I just can’t see a marine wondering which armour variant to wear for a mission and ever choosing Tacitus over Phobos because he gets all the stuff the Tacitus gives and the bonuses from the Phobos. I don’t even mind really if there’s no in game difference, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect GW to provide a fluff reason (as others have here) as to why Tacitus might be a superior choice in certain situations.

But MK III was intended for a different role? It was literally up-armored Mk II armor for frontal assaults, and Mk III was used for what terminators would be used for when they came about.

 

Also, Mk VIII is literally an uparmored version of Mk VII, and is stated exactly as that, an improvement to the Mk VIII to cover the weak spots. Also, Mk V is a reduction Mk, with it being a weaker substitute for the others because it was more modular and easier to repair. Mk VII was literally an improvement to the Mk VI to compensate for the exposed cabling of the Mk VI.

 

So literally every armor Mk does have various levels of protection, and the later marks ARE improvements.

 

Phobos is the Mk VI equivalent. Tacticus is the Mk VIII equivalent, and that really stupid looking aggressor one is the Mk III.

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

 

Well I mean Mk III and VIII both have the same the armor save as all the other mks, so it’s not anything new.

This. No point trying to pick holes now, it's been this way for years.

 

Visually MKIII and MKVI couldn't be more distinct.

To be fair GW picked this hole themselves. MK III and VI are not described as being intended for different roles, one is not a straight up improvement over the other and, more importantly, there aren’t a series of psychic powers and abilities that affect MK III but don’t affect MK VI.

 

I know we have to accept a lot of stuff with the suspension of disbelief but at the moment I just can’t see a marine wondering which armour variant to wear for a mission and ever choosing Tacitus over Phobos because he gets all the stuff the Tacitus gives and the bonuses from the Phobos. I don’t even mind really if there’s no in game difference, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect GW to provide a fluff reason (as others have here) as to why Tacitus might be a superior choice in certain situations.

But MK III was intended for a different role? It was literally up-armored Mk II armor for frontal assaults, and Mk III was used for what terminators would be used for when they came about.

 

Also, Mk VIII is literally an uparmored version of Mk VII, and is stated exactly as that, an improvement to the Mk VIII to cover the weak spots. Also, Mk V is a reduction Mk, with it being a weaker substitute for the others because it was more modular and easier to repair. Mk VII was literally an improvement to the Mk VI to compensate for the exposed cabling of the Mk VI.

 

So literally every armor Mk does have various levels of protection, and the later marks ARE improvements.

 

Phobos is the Mk VI equivalent. Tacticus is the Mk VIII equivalent, and that really stupid looking aggressor one is the Mk III.

But none of them are functionally any different on the table! Phobos is because it has Psychic powers specifically for it and abilities that the other doesn’t. Choosing the previous armour variants was purely visual, now this is just actually better for the same role.

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

But none of them are functionally any different on the table! Phobos is because it has Psychic powers specifically for it and abilities that the other doesn’t. Choosing the previous armour variants was purely visual, now this is just actually better for the same role.

 

Why are you framing this as a bad thing?

 

EDIT: perhaps i'm misunderstanding. I just don't see what the fuzz is about that there are differences between phobos and tacticus in the crunch (and the difference being that one can be affected in certain way by a witch is of little consideration to me). Is your argument that it makes phobos strictly superior? Should everyone be using phobos because its strictly superior in this sense? Because that falls apart when you consider that the sneaky witch powers only affect sneaky units ala vanguard in phobos armor, who presumably beyond wearing phobos armor are also fulfilling the role of being sneaky. Simply sticking phobos armor on intercessors wouldn't make them suddenly a valid target for the sneaky witch powers, because intercessors have a different role? I mean it all comes down to sepperating the units in crunch and this is as valid as any, right?  I might just be misunderstanding everything though.

[Dracos]

My head canon has the Phobos armor offering the same protection as the Tacticus but has less durability and requires more maintenance. Tacticus is better for longer engagements in the field, and Phobos for infiltration missions.

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

But none of them are functionally any different on the table! Phobos is because it has Psychic powers specifically for it and abilities that the other doesn’t. Choosing the previous armour variants was purely visual, now this is just actually better for the same role.

 

Why are you framing this as a bad thing?

Because it’s yet another Primaris rule that doesn’t make sense and seems lazy. Primaris can’t get ina landraider because reasons, Primaris have a choice of two armour, one of which is a straight upgrade but they still use the other because reasons, this Psychic power only affects these particular Primaris marines because reasons.

 

It just feels like GW has given up any effort to make things make sense.

[killersquid]

The vanguard marines I like more than the first wave of models. I'm going to split a box with a buddy of mine. The infiltrators and suppressors are the bees knees!

[Marshal Rohr]

Games Workshop stopped trying to care about reasonable marine lore in 5th Edition.

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

 

But none of them are functionally any different on the table! Phobos is because it has Psychic powers specifically for it and abilities that the other doesn’t. Choosing the previous armour variants was purely visual, now this is just actually better for the same role.

Why are you framing this as a bad thing?

Because it’s yet another Primaris rule that doesn’t make sense and seems lazy. Primaris can’t get ina landraider because reasons, Primaris have a choice of two armour, one of which is a straight upgrade but they still use the other because reasons, this Psychic power only affects these particular Primaris marines because reasons.

 

It just feels like GW has given up any effort to make things make sense.

 

 

Yeah no, I think you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. I touched upon this earlier when i edited my post.

 

The sneaky witch powers affects phobos units because its a lighter power armor and those wearing it will typically conduct more stealthy covert type of actions. In crunch it its just a matter of writing that the sneaky witch powers affect phobos units. This is just crunch so its as good a sepperation as any. The sneaky powers affect sneaky units who are such by wearing phobos armor. It's not a matter of phobos being strictly superior to tacticus.

[Ishagu]

Guys, there are now 8 Primaris units that are NOT included in the codex, 10 if you count unique wargear options of existing units.

 

It's very, very obvious Codex 2.0 will be released VERY soon.

 

Let's not worry about armour keywords, Shadowspire is clearly designed to function within itself primarily.

[Robbienw]

Not sure that Primaris gear is mass producible as such, at least not by imperial mass producible standard.

 

The fact that classic marines are being produced still in part because their gear is more readily available, would seem to suggest primaris gear is of more limited availability.

 

Could be a very low amount is being newly produced at the moment and they are using gear largely from stocks built up by cawl over the last 10,000 years.

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

 

 

But none of them are functionally any different on the table! Phobos is because it has Psychic powers specifically for it and abilities that the other doesn’t. Choosing the previous armour variants was purely visual, now this is just actually better for the same role.

Why are you framing this as a bad thing?

Because it’s yet another Primaris rule that doesn’t make sense and seems lazy. Primaris can’t get ina landraider because reasons, Primaris have a choice of two armour, one of which is a straight upgrade but they still use the other because reasons, this Psychic power only affects these particular Primaris marines because reasons.

 

It just feels like GW has given up any effort to make things make sense.

Yeah no, I think you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. I touched upon this earlier when i edited my post.

 

The sneaky witch powers affects phobos units because its a lighter power armor and those wearing it will typically conduct more stealthy covert type of actions. In crunch it its just a matter of writing that the sneaky witch powers affect phobos units. This is just crunch so its as good a sepperation as any. The sneaky powers affect sneaky units who are such by wearing phobos armor. It's not a matter of phobos being strictly superior to tacticus.

To me it doesn’t make sense that the librarian can shroud one set of marines and not another. And if you look at the armour, Phobos armour can do everything Tacitus can do and then some. Tacitus can do everything Tacitus can do and nothing else. Phobos is superior until GW can give us an ability/reason why it isn’t.

 

I don’t think we will convince each other, it’s partly my issue but I place a huge amount of importance on the fluff making sense and it bugs me when little things don’t fit, even though I can happily ignore big things. It’s also that I feel every thing like this takes away from marines being a truly integrated force rather several self contained parts.

[Ishagu]

I totally agree that another keyword for the psychic powers is really stupid.

 

I'm not getting upset until we've seen full releases and a new codex. It will be here in no time.

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

To me it doesn’t make sense that the librarian can shroud one set of marines and not another. And if you look at the armour, Phobos armour can do everything Tacitus can do and then some. Tacitus can do everything Tacitus can do and nothing else. Phobos is superior until GW can give us an ability/reason why it isn’t.

 

Phobos is only "superior" in crunch only because it can be affected by the witch powers. You'll have to forgive me, but I find this to be such an absolute non-issue I don't know where to begin.

 

The simplistic crunch, which has adpetas sororitas power armor as effective as astartes power armor despite the latter depicted as twice as thick, which has terminators armour and artificer armor as effective depsite the former being what 5 times as thick, i could go on,  but this extremely simplistic crunch representation which is decades old, is now depcting two versions of astartes armor, one being lighter than the other... and so the powers of the librarian all about being sneaky and stealthy, being able to cast powers of amplifying being sneaky and stealthy only working on the marines wtih the express role of being sneaky and stealthy, is a problem to you because it arbitrarily makes the sneaky and stealthy variant superior in your view? 

 

You do realize that you cannot divorce the armor from the unit right? And the other gear the unit is wearing? I'm sorry I just have no sympathy for your point of view at all in this regard. I don't see your claim this is somehow fluff not making sense, when this is a purely a crunch issue - a crunch issue firmly embeddened in this long standing tradition of armor related crunch issues stemming from the simplicty of the d6 roll. It just isn't a fluff issue.

 

EDIT: Apologies if I come across as a dick because I probably do. I probably should have more sympathy for your concerns as I see a hint that they may stem from an extremely similiar place that very old concerns of mine did. Then I accepted that the d6 roll just doesn't allow for that much variation

[MARK0SIAN]

EDIT: Apologies if I come across as a dick because I probably do. I probably should have more sympathy for your concerns as I see a hint that they may stem from an extremely similiar place that some of mine did decades ago

Don’t worry, we each prioritise different things for the hobby. This is an issue for me but I wouldn’t expect everyone to give it the same weight. In part I am aware I’m probably at the weird end of a lot of issues in terms of what I care about in the hobby, for me things like this are just like a mental itch I can’t scratch :)

[Ishagu]

I totally give it weight. I don't want MORE keywords segregating unit as it's getting very silly.

 

I just think that it won't be an issue once the next codex is released, or it will make more sense.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Basicly it comes down to this I think:

 

Tacticus armor IS tougher than phobos. Offers more protection. This is fluff.

 

The difference in protection is not enough to warrant that it can be caught on the gross simplification that is the armor save roll. Ie both armors are still 3+. This is crunch.

 

Thus, the crunch is simply not nuanced enough to pick up the advantages of Tacticus has over Phobos. The benefits of Phobos has over tactcus are however picked up by infiltration rules and by it being targetable by sneak witch powers. This is a fault of the crunch and not the fluff.

 

This in turn is further balanced in game by having it that only stealthy coverty type of units with typically liighter weapons actually use phobos armor. Because they're lighter, do coverty actions have and have lighter weapons, they're justified as being targetable by these certain powers, represented by said powers specifically only working on units with the PHOBOS keyword. The phobos witch is meant to work in tandem with phobos units. I don't see a problem here.

 

Anyway I'm gonna bow out now as I feel I'm just going in circles here. Cheers to anyone who puts up with my rambling.

[Sete]

People discussing the finer details of armours and I just want a god damn unit with chainswords.

[Marshal Rohr]

You'll get one this summer in the Soul Wars parallel

[Sete]

I doubt we will see any more Primaris variations this year. I hope I'm wrong tho.