Is there a niche for Las. Razorbacks?

[momerathe]

So, I've been mulling over taking some lascannon razorbacks as AT support - not least because I've got some ideas for a conversion I'd like to try out.

 

However, whichever way I look at it I can't fit the pieces together in my head.

 

* Mathematically, las/missile ven. dreads just seem to be better (140 for 3 shots at 2+ vs. 110 for 2 at 3+)

* You don't want to use the razorbacks as transport because of the hit penalty for moving.

* And just having the vets hide in the transports first turn before jumping out to shoot doesn't work with the beta bolter rule (disembark counts as moving)

 

Is there anything I'm missing?

[Mr4Minutes]

Easier to get a cover save with the ven dred as well. (Terrain dependent of course)

 

Dreds also get to use our mission tactic reroll 1s to wound.

 

I don’t like the las back as an AT option for the reasons you stated. It’s standing and shooting instead of transporting.

I use the relic shield on a watch Captain with my ven dreds. 2+ to hit, re-rolling ones. And with cover it’s 2+/5++/6+++.

 

I mostly lean towards twin HB Razorbacks personally. Being cheaper with more shots, it’s less of a punishment to rush up the middle with a squad, pop smoke and then deploy the squad and shoot/charge stuff.

[Syward]

IMO, unless you plan to use them for transport and/or for a mobile LOS block/screen, there are better options for AT than the TLLC RB. If you are looking purely for a platform for the TLLC, I'd say stick with the Venerable Dreadnought. It's got a lot more value for the points than the TLLC RB. 

[vigitant]

While i dont think lasbacks are good for AT, beta bolters should not control your movement.
Standing still for full rapid fire is a nice option, but i think in most situations the board control from pushing up is going to do us better than trying to gunline.

That being said, the basic rhino chassis has some neat advantages.  getting that extra ~4" of movement can go a good ways towards getting more board control, and will likely put you in rapid fire range anyway.
As Syward said, mobile LOS wall is a super annoying tactic.  Make a "V" with your rhino chassis, and shoot from inside the "V."  you'll block off a bunch of return fire.  Or shoot on the edge of your opponents formation, and wall off the rest.

All this can be done better by a rhino, though.

If you want a transport that can do all the above, put in back up AT, protect your dudes, soak enemy fire/overwatch, and make your opponent hate you, there is an option that will do all that at the cost of a smash captain...
You know the drill...

[Mobius0288]

I used to use a razorback lascannon almost exclusively. As of Chapter Approved 2018, the Ven Dread is your best option. I mean, how awesome is it that we can have a Vanguard of an HQ choice and couple of Ven Dreads (3rd slot of choice).

 

The only thing the las-back can offer is turn 1 protection for troops, and the ability to somewhat counter a deep strike by hiding dudes in it and they fail the charge.

 

The rhino is currently the best option as a transport due to the bolter rule, followed by a heavy bolter razorback. The twin assault cannon still has a place for me but I usually try to keep a reroll guy near it to maximize the shots. The range sometimes hinders me and drives me to make room for a corvus blackstar instead, picking off what I want rather than what shows up at my door step.

[h0U5e]

Dreads get Chapter Tactics, Razorbacks don't. UM for fall back and shoot at -1 or RG for -1 to hit helps a lot for units that want to shoot / stay at range.

[momerathe]

Thanks folks, that more or less confirms what I thought. Shame. Well, I want to do the conversion anyway, so maybe it'll get an outing if only in casual games.

[vigitant]

Thanks folks, that more or less confirms what I thought. Shame. Well, I want to do the conversion anyway, so maybe it'll get an outing if only in casual games.

 

I always found it useful back when i did DnD/Pathfinder optimization advice to point out that many things are good, but not optimal, some are bad, but can be made to work in some situations or builds, and only a small subset of options are truly terrible.  Some because they are functionally useless, others because they incorporate(or are) massive penalties that render them unplayable.

 

This is important in 40k as well.  And I'd say my old rule of thumb still bears out:

If something has any form of throughput, it can be made to work.

 

Lascannons are throughput.  They may not be as good AT as vendreads, but they can transport more bodies than vendreads.  they dont require you to spend pts on a ML.  They have more movement.  They are likely to be categorized differently by your opponent.

All of these differences can potentially be exploited with the right tactics and army builds.

 

Interesting idea, somewhat fluffy: 

put eisenhorn and/or a generic inquisitor(ordo xenos, of course) and some acolytes inside.  theyre cheap enough at 10 pts a pop with SB.  gives you a few extra smites and such.  Eisenhorn with his demon is 125 points, but he can be surprisingly potent.  his buffed daemonhost is crazy.

It frees up the DW to do what they need to, and leaves you some bodies in the car to drop off for objectives, screen, or melee counterattack.  it's super difficult to blockout 1-2 model units from disembarking.

If a unit of 'nids or orks get in on your lasback, eisenhorn, acolyte stormbolters, and a super daemonhost are probably gonna be able to solve that problem, or at least get their points back.

[Mobius0288]

That's a good way to get a cheap Vanguard too if you need the CPs. And can't he summon the daemon after the game is started? That could be on more slot for another acolyte? or 5 Ordo Xenos Militatant "escorts?"

[vigitant]

That's a good way to get a cheap Vanguard too if you need the CPs. And can't he summon the daemon after the game is started? That could be on more slot for another acolyte? or 5 Ordo Xenos Militatant "escorts?"

You still have to pay for the daemon.  but he can summon it 1" away from enemies.  and that thing is a beast for 25 pts.  no character rule, which is sad, but with his ability its not bad at all

[Mr4Minutes]

Cherubael gets the character keyword.