Does the Inquisition have authority over Guilliman?

[Sete]

"Chief among these was his perception of the Primarchs as tools of conquest, not as sons. Tools that were one day to be set aside when their work was complete. It's likely this revelation has been passed down the generations of Custodes and is a view still held by their present members."

 

False .

I'm waiting for your rebuttal.

[Brother Zeal]

"Chief among these was his perception of the Primarchs as tools of conquest, not as sons. Tools that were one day to be set aside when their work was complete. It's likely this revelation has been passed down the generations of Custodes and is a view still held by their present members."

 

False .

 

Truth.

 

The Master of Mankind and the short audio drama First Lord of the Imperium are very illuminating in this regard.

 

In First Lord of the Imperium, Malcador himself outright states that "the Imperium is not for the post-humans" and that "the legions and their sires are conqueror's tools, and nothing more".

 

He goes on to say that the Primarchs who survived the Great Crusade were expected to turn on each other, just without the involvement of Chaos.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

No you see ADB loves to retcon so no.

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

No you see ADB loves to retcon so no.

Why is your response to content to plug your ears? If you don't like the fluff you don't have to be here...

 

In MOM when he's operating on Angaron he seems to deeply imply to the head of the Mechanicum that he couldn't fix the butcher's nails but thought he still had uses. His son. In literal torture. Was USEFUL. A resource.

 

Like at that point in the crusade they werent even in any dire need of primarchz (clearly as they killed off at least two by then).

 

Emps in MOM valued a primarch as a tool.

[Brother Zeal]

No you see ADB loves to retcon so no.

 

If only that were so, friend. First Lord of the Imperium was written by Laurie Goulding, one of the editors at BL. Then of course there is Dark Imperium, the novel released at the dawn of 8th ED to give context to all of the 40k lore going forward. The following passage is taken directly from said book, and unlike Master of Mankind we cannot take comfort in the possibility that the Emperor's coldness towards the primarchs is a reflection of the POV character's bias.

 

"There was the wizened corpse surrounded by banks of groaning machinery, His sword upon His knee. Sorrow suffused everything. The sacrifice required to keep the Emperor alive sickened the primarch. If He were alive. He appeared dead. Guilliman had expected nothing.

 

But He spoke.

 

With words of light and fire, the Emperor had conferred with His returned primarch, the last of His finest creations.

 

A creation. Not a son.

 

The living Emperor had been an artful being, as skilled at hiding His thoughts as He was at reading those of others. What remained of Him was powerful beyond comprehension, but it lacked the subtlety He had whilst He walked among men. Speaking with the Emperor had been like conversing with a star. The Emperor's words had burned him.

 

What hurt most was what went unsaid.

 

The Emperor greeted Guilliman not as a father receives a son, but as a craftsman who rediscovers a favourite tool he thought lost. He behaved like a prisoner locked in an iron cage who has been passed a rasp.

 

Guilliman had no illusions. He was not the man who brought the rasp; he was the rasp.

 

While the Emperor had walked abroad, He had cloaked his manipulations in love. He had let His primarchs call him father; He had let them call themselves His sons. He had rarely spoken those words Himself, Guilliman now realised, and when He had He had done so without sincerity. Buffeted by the full might of the Emperor's will unclothed in flesh, a cloak had been ripped from Guilliman's eyes.

 

The Emperor had allowed them to love Him, and to believe He loved them in return. He had not. His primarchs were weapons, that was all.

 

Though His power was immense, perhaps greater than it had been before He ascended, the Emperor's humanity was all but gone. He could no longer mask His thoughts with a human face. The Emperor's light was blinding, all encompassing, but finally - finally - Guilliman had seen it as a whole. The being he thought of as a father could hide nothing from him.

 

The Emperor did not love His sons. They were things. Guilliman, all his brothers, were nothing but a means to an end."

 

- Dark Imperium, Chapter 22.

 

 

Actually, while re-reading Dark Imperium, I noticed that Guilliman deliberately keeps a priest of the Ministorum at his side to maintain the illusion that he respects the Ecclesiarchy's views, and to prove that he isn't a corrupted non-believer.

 

Wouldn't it have been interesting if he had likewise recruited an Inquisitor to act as a heresy canary? Granted, half the stuff he would reveal about the days of the Great Crusade, the Heresy and the Scouring would probably be considered forbidden lore, but it would have been better to educate members of the Inquisition about the early history of the Imperium rather than the corps of savants he has apparently decided to put together.

[Brother Tyler]

If there is a desire to (constructively) discuss the relationship between the Emperor and the Primarchs, please start a new discussion (and feel free to link back to this discussion, if desired).

 

Please return to the topic, which is the level of authority, if any, that the Inquisition has over Roboute Guilliman.

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

 

 

No you see ADB loves to retcon so no.

If only that were so, friend. First Lord of the Imperium was written by Laurie Goulding, one of the editors at BL. Then of course there is Dark Imperium, the novel released at the dawn of 8th ED to give context to all of the 40k lore going forward. The following passage is taken directly from said book, and unlike Master of Mankind we cannot take comfort in the possibility that the Emperor's coldness towards the primarchs is a reflection of the POV character's bias.

 

"There was the wizened corpse surrounded by banks of groaning machinery, His sword upon His knee. Sorrow suffused everything. The sacrifice required to keep the Emperor alive sickened the primarch. If He were alive. He appeared dead. Guilliman had expected nothing.

 

But He spoke.

 

With words of light and fire, the Emperor had conferred with His returned primarch, the last of His finest creations.

 

A creation. Not a son.

 

The living Emperor had been an artful being, as skilled at hiding His thoughts as He was at reading those of others. What remained of Him was powerful beyond comprehension, but it lacked the subtlety He had whilst He walked among men. Speaking with the Emperor had been like conversing with a star. The Emperor's words had burned him.

 

What hurt most was what went unsaid.

 

The Emperor greeted Guilliman not as a father receives a son, but as a craftsman who rediscovers a favourite tool he thought lost. He behaved like a prisoner locked in an iron cage who has been passed a rasp.

 

Guilliman had no illusions. He was not the man who brought the rasp; he was the rasp.

 

While the Emperor had walked abroad, He had cloaked his manipulations in love. He had let His primarchs call him father; He had let them call themselves His sons. He had rarely spoken those words Himself, Guilliman now realised, and when He had He had done so without sincerity. Buffeted by the full might of the Emperor's will unclothed in flesh, a cloak had been ripped from Guilliman's eyes.

 

The Emperor had allowed them to love Him, and to believe He loved them in return. He had not. His primarchs were weapons, that was all.

 

Though His power was immense, perhaps greater than it had been before He ascended, the Emperor's humanity was all but gone. He could no longer mask His thoughts with a human face. The Emperor's light was blinding, all encompassing, but finally - finally - Guilliman had seen it as a whole. The being he thought of as a father could hide nothing from him.

 

The Emperor did not love His sons. They were things. Guilliman, all his brothers, were nothing but a means to an end."

 

- Dark Imperium, Chapter 22.

 

 

Actually, while re-reading Dark Imperium, I noticed that Guilliman deliberately keeps a priest of the Ministorum at his side to maintain the illusion that he respects the Ecclesiarchy's views, and to prove that he isn't a corrupted non-believer.

 

Wouldn't it have been interesting if he had likewise recruited an Inquisitor to act as a heresy canary? Granted, half the stuff he would reveal about the days of the Great Crusade, the Heresy and the Scouring would probably be considered forbidden lore, but it would have been better to educate members of the Inquisition about the early history of the Imperium rather than the corps of savants he has apparently decided to put together.

Nail. In. Coffin.

 

 

And it makes PERFECT SENSE given what we know of the emperor.

 

He didn't succeed in guiding humanity from the shadows.

 

He didn't succeed in truely uniting earth and mars. He didn't succeed in his attempt to build beings that could guide his empire.

 

The reality is: the emperor is human enough to error. Divine enough to no longer be able to be epethetic.

[Sete]

Hon hon hon.

*Takes nail out of the coffin.

 

Shrine World's and faith in the Emperor is keeping the Great rift at bay. There is power in symbols and faith. And with enough faith, well let's say the Emperor Protects.

 

The Imperial Church top lads know about the traitor primarchs and Horus heresy, and the Inquisition knows about Guilliman being raised by xenos magic, and they all are keeping tabs on a Imperium secundos scenario. So some of them knows about HH and how dangerous a corrupted primarch can be.

Yeah the Emperor is being powered by 1000 psykers a day and there is now a big difference between an alpha lever psyker that he was during Horus Heresy and a near omnipotent entity that he is now...

 

The Emperor only objective is the survival of mankind. Primarchs are a tool, Custodes are a tool, astartes are a tool.

[Brother Zeal]

The Imperial Church top lads know about the traitor primarchs and Horus heresy

 

Not too sure about that. In Carrion Throne, Interrogator Spanoza (a well-educated and devout woman who served alongside the Imperial Fists, giving her more insight than most about the Astartes) was utterly baffled by an old text which implied that there were more than nine Primarchs.

 

 

 

and the Inquisition knows about Guilliman being raised by xenos magic

 

Do they? I was always under the impression Greyfax glossed over certain elements of Guilliman's revival when giving her account of events to the Ordos.  I mean, Primarch or not, there's really no way an institution as paranoid and xenophobic as the Inquisition would have been able to handle the truth of what happened. Maybe I'm just not giving the Custodes' endorsement enough credit.

 

 

Also, it's worth noting that Guilliman sealed the entire Library of Ptolemy on Macragge purely because of a single record it contains. To me that indicates that he's even more wary now about extreme reactions to the notion of Imperium Secundus than he was back in the day. Guilliman may not answer to the Inquisition, but it seems that even he understands that things will get very, very ugly if someone with an Inquisitorial Rosette ever found out that he once tried to build his own Imperium, regardless of the circumstances.

[Sete]

Yep. Our Martyred Lady audio book.

Take it to Gav Thorpe if you disagree.

The full situation is that half the galaxy is gone under the great rift, beggars can't be choosers. And he's still a son of the God Emperor. But still everyone is making power plays behind Guillimans back.

 

Spinoza was a newbie inquisitor was she not?

Obviously not all inquisitor would know it. But if Greyfax does, the Inquisitorial Representative does, and they speak freely about it, it is implied that Ordo Hereticus is keeping tabs on RG.

 

The Imperial Church top hat actually uses RG Imperium Secundos as an excuse to try and grab more power, bringing that what if into question.

Of course this talks are behind closed doors between protagonists, but the information is out there, and they had access to it.

[Vash113]

IIRC in Watchers of the Throne the Imperial Chancellor, when talking to the Inquisitorial Representative revealed that he knew some things about the Horus Heresy, chaos and the traitor Primarchs, perhaps not a great deal, but his level of access made him somewhat aware of the threats and the history of the Imperium even though the information was ostensibly secret even to the High Lords. The Inquisitorial Representative made no comment on his knowledge, indirectly sort of acknowledging it was something of an open secret among those powerful enough to uncover the information.

However the situation post the Fall of Cadia is different. Grey Knights moved openly on Terra, passing the view of millions without incident where previously the merest glimpse of them would have been a death sentence and the daemonic attack against the palace also made the existence of daemons impossible to contain any longer as a purge of billions on Terra was just not possible. The cat is out of the bag so to speak now and knowledge of chaos, and likely the traitor legions and Primarchs is no longer as secret or proscribed as it once was.