Road to The North China Open

[Morticon]

So, after some more thought, I've realised that I will need some serious anti tank.  The Devs are good, but they dont cut it.  I need something a little more dynamic.  I think, for their points, the best thing marines have to offer in this regard are the contemptor Mortis dreads. With that in mind.....

BA - BATT
 

BA Smash Cap - Hammer, Shield, Angels Wing, Artisan. 

BA Libby Dread - Quickening, Wings

 

5x Scouts - storm bolter

5x Scouts -
5x Intercessors - grenade

 

8x Vanvets - 5shields, 1Axe, Maul, 2Swords

5x Devs - Cherub, Lascan, Missile, Heavy Bolter
1x Quad Mortar

1x Quad Mortar

DW - BATT

 

Libby - JP, Stormbolter (Veil, Might)

Captain - JP, Stormbolter, Hammer (Beacon here, now)

 

8x Vets - 2Terms, 1Vanguard, 7 stormbolters, 6shields.

5x Primaris

10x Vets - 5Bikers (homer), 5SB, 5SS.

Mortis Comtemptor Dread - Quad Las
Mortis Comtemptor Dread - Quad Las

[Charlo]

A seldom seen choice, I like it! BS2+ with four lascannon is pretty nasty.

[lash144]

Why don't you bring anti heavy in form of close combat? As you pointed out marine long range AT is pretty mediocre at best. And those DW vets should have no real problem of shooting down your enemies screen.

[Panzer]

Why don't you bring anti heavy in form of close combat? As you pointed out marine long range AT is pretty mediocre at best. And those DW vets should have no real problem of shooting down your enemies screen.

Probably because melee is slow as hell for Marines. You only start damaging an opponent who doesn't come to you turn 2-3 the earliest and by that time most games on tournaments are already more or less decided. Melee is not bad but for something as important as knights etc you want to be able to deal with it turn 1.

[lash144]

1) We have jumppacks :p

 

2) Marines just don't have anything to deal with a knight turn 1 or really in general besides Smash captains / Gman. Just take Morts 2 Dreads for example an run the math against a single knight with ion bulwark. Even if we assume the dreads don't need to move and get rerolls 1's to hit and wound they do just 7 dmg on average due to the 3++. It's pathetic unfortunately.

[Morticon]

Why don't you bring anti heavy in form of close combat? As you pointed out marine long range AT is pretty mediocre at best. And those DW vets should have no real problem of shooting down your enemies screen.

 

Thanks for the thoughts, Lash! 

 

I've thought about this LOADS.  Any thoughts/suggestions for type of CC I should be bringing?

 

I'm not sure if you caught the regionals report thread, but I've played about 15 games now with this core (the DW/BA) -  and I've found that where I struggle a little is with units that provide solid support from a backline position.  Russes for example, that can be screened by multiple layers of guard - who, yes, will be taken out easily by the DW, but still provide good blocking for a turn or two.  

 

What I will do, is maybe run a test game with two more smash captains and see if they provide something the 8 lascannons dont.  

 

I do agree with sfPanzer, however, and i think theyre too slow.  Jump packs, while great in general, just dont allow me to get into things to do enough damage.

 

I can kill units from turn 1 - that's important to me.   I

 

That being said, I've not done it before, so i'll give it a bash.   

[Morticon]

While I'm waiting for my dreads to arrive, I'll look to playing a character assault army. 
 

A - BATT
 

BA Smash Cap - Hammer, Shield, Angels Wing, Artisan, visions. 

BA Biker Cap - Hammer, Shield  (also likely to get visions)

BA Libby Dread - Quickening, Wings

 

5x Scouts - storm bolter

5x Scouts - storm bolter
5x Intercessors - grenade

 

8x Vanvets - 5shields, 1Axe, Maul, 2Swords

 

DW - BATT

 

Libby - JP, Stormbolter (Veil, Might)

Captain - JP, Stormbolter, Hammer (Beacon here, now)

 

8x Vets - 2Terms, 1Vanguard, 7 stormbolters, 6shields.

5x Primaris

10x Vets - 5Bikers (homer), 5SB, 5SS.

SALLIES - SPEARHEAD

 

SM Captain - Fist, Shield, JP

 

5x Devs - Cherub, Lascan, Missile, Heavy Bolter

5x Devs - Cherub, Lascan, Missile, Heavy Bolter

1x Quad Mortar

1x Thunderfire Cannon   (the Tfire cannon is slightly better for what I use it for on account of the AP1.  The shattershells on the quad are nice, but rarely come into play.  

 

CP - ASSASSIN  

 

 

This make up means I have 1 character that does d3 Dam, 3 characters that do 3 damage a pop and one that does 4.  I'm going to see how the Sallies play, despite the fact that the BA guys wound more easily.  The rerolls for the devs and the Tfire AP may make up for this.  

 

I'll play vs. nids next and then try get a mech game along the way. 

[Panzer]

1) We have jumppacks

 

2) Marines just don't have anything to deal with a knight turn 1 or really in general besides Smash captains / Gman. Just take Morts 2 Dreads for example an run the math against a single knight with ion bulwark. Even if we assume the dreads don't need to move and get rerolls 1's to hit and wound they do just 7 dmg on average due to the 3++. It's pathetic unfortunately.

 

1) You don't say. Still not as fast as a Lascannon. 

 

2) Not true, however I didn't necessesarily mean to completely kill finish Knights turn 1 (though that would be preferable). A single Lascannon shooting turn 1 does already more than any of our melee units turn 1 since those can't even swing at a knight that early so their damage potential is strictly 0 while the single Lascannons damage potential is 0-6. ;)

[Tokugawa]

I prefer your original concept: use mass storm shields to absorb high damage attacks, which quite nullified incoming alpha-strike.

 

2 or 3 inserted tanks would become easy victims of alpha-strike, which conflict with your established tactics.

[Panzer]

Having seen some of the lists on the Grand Tournament Final last weekend I find the Razorback list problematic as well.
Stuff like 6 Eldar flyers, T'au with 19 Seeker Missiles, 2x6 IF Dakka Centurions pour out a sick amount of damage against vehicles.
But then again any Marine list would have troubles facing those I fear.

[lash144]

@Mort:
No haven´t seen the original reports. As for units I think you made an good choice with the Smash Captains and the Libby Dread. You could also go down the Sanguinary Guard route but they require some support, so you might make to have bigger changes. 

I don´t know how the terrain looks in your meta, but what I learned from my last tournament is that it is not necessarily important to kill units turn 1. With the ITC terrain rules I can easily hide all of my forces turn 1 and build up the pressure with some indirect shooting.

But if you struggle more with things like Leman Russes than Knights Lascanons are still a good call since their AP isn´t wasted and you are wounding on 3´s. 
Since you already had an version with some AdMech in: They have some really really good long range units you could bring!



@ SfPanzer:

The problem with a knight is that you have to pretty much kill it in one go or have to have units that can withstand the return fire. 
Just assume you get first and get lucky with the Lascanons and do get say 11 dmg. The knight player spends 1CP to operate on the highest bracket and just wipes out your Dreads.
 

[Panzer]

 

@ SfPanzer:

The problem with a knight is that you have to pretty much kill it in one go or have to have units that can withstand the return fire. 

Just assume you get first and get lucky with the Lascanons and do get say 11 dmg. The knight player spends 1CP to operate on the highest bracket and just wipes out your Dreads.

 

That's true but if anything that's even more of a reason to not rely on melee for anti-tank as your melee would get wiped out twice before they even get to swing lol

Charakter based melee is an exception (though not really anymore with all the assassins, sniper and whatsoever) but you have a Captain in your lists anyway so it's only in addition to whatever regular anti-tank you have, not your whole answer.

[lash144]

That's why I mentioned that we have jumppacks. I wouldn't walk up a unit of SG the field, that's for sure.

Just chill and hide turn one and then beta strike.

[Morticon]

What are the ITC terrain rules?  

[shanewatts]

I can't strictly say from a pure BA perspective, but using melee to deal with knights is the most reliable option generally.

 

Knights will have an invuln vs shooting (and possibly a very good one) but typically will not in melee. So while your melee unit will not do any damage to a knight right away, when it does finally do so it can potentially kill it on the spot. Assuming you go the shooting route, that knight will be doing damage regardless of how much wounds you put onto it until it is dead.

 

Going into vehicles without an invuln save, shooting will be much more effective, but typically that means it is effective against you as well.

 

The biggest drawback to using long range shooting as your source of anti tank/knight is that more than likely it is vulnerable to the same unit type of your opponents, which makes "first turn hammer" a much bigger deal. If you go the melee route and try for a "beta strike" and limit the targets in your army that are vulnerable to those types of weapons, you effectively are negating how well those units can impact you. Being able to protect your anti tank units and making theirs ineffective are very viable ways of dealing with them.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Here ya go Mort ...

 

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2018/12/16/lvo-40k-update/

[Are Verlo]

What are the ITC terrain rules?

They treat groundfloor walls as completely los-blocking regardless of Windows, breaches and so on.

 

And many of the tables at the LVO had squarded ruins (ETC use more L-shaped IMO).

 

 

This makes it possible to hide infantry from all but «no los required weapons». And monsters, bikes and vehicles can’t assault you as long as you are more than 1” away from the outer walls

 

Edit: for some reason I did not see that BO had posted a proper link hours before I replied .

[Morticon]

Hey all! 

So this weekend I play-tested the Sallies addition list vs. a Guard list, and a Tyranid/GSC list. 

It went really, really well.  

 

OVERALL THOUGHTS:

 

The Vindicare, as many are starting to notice, or who have already mentioned online, can be a little underwhelming.  Characters are easy to hide, and he really Isn't a massive damage dealer.  In game 1, he missed his first shot of the game (4th "one" I've rolled for him over 3 games now <_<).  

 

Hooooowever, I got to a Playtest the murder-machine (Eversor) vs the Nids - despite positioning him poorly...wow....highly recommended.  He wound up taking out 8 stealers in combat (after having a few poor rolls to boot). Because I popped his FNP, he also only took 2 wounds back.  Was great.

 

Sallies devs are GOLD.  Absolute GOLD. I have no intention of going back to BA devs, sadly :(  The reroll hit and wound is essentially 4 free CP a turn. Came into play every time I fired. 

 

The Sallies Smash Captain wasn't played well in both games, but I think will make a nice addition to the list.  He fits better than the other options.   Vs. certain match-ups, I'll consider giving him Shield Eternal. 

 

I will continue to playtest this list, but also want to try the double contemptor quad las madness against the nid and eldar player before i make a call. 

 

 

GAME 1 brief synopsis. 

I played against what I consider a FANTASTIC guard list.  It reminded me of a 5th ed list.  It wasnt the usual nonsense we all see these days, so, even though it was a slow to play against, it was cool. 

If memory serves, I was up against Pask, 2 Bassies, 2 Wyverns, 2 Chimeras, 2Sentinels, 1 Hellhound, 2 heavy weapons teams and then 120 guardsmen - every unit with a heavy and a special - and then 10 scions too. 

Unfortunately, despite being very capable, the opponent was very new - so we only got 2 turns in.  

Lessons learned:   STOP HEDGING BETS, MORT!!!!!!! ><; 

 

I hedge my best ALL the time, but dont often think of all the consequences.  I split attacks, to hope to try kill two things and expect to kill one, not realising there's a chance I may not kill either.  

In this case, smashy made it up to the lines through a gap to the wyverns.   He was in a position to kill a wyvern (or commander) and then consolidate into another wyvern.  

 

I split attacks, and duffed - leaving both units alive, and the 2nd wyvern available to fire <_< 

After the game I vowed to do this mental process as a checklist:

 

BEST CASE 

EXPECTED CASE 

WORST CASE 

 

 

In this case it was:

 

1: Kill commander and Wyvern - consolidate into 2nd wyvern and eginseer 

2: Kill Wyvern - consolidate into 2nd Wyvern and enginseer.

3: Kill nothing - do nothing. 

 

Knowing option 2 would have netted me the same functional /game result, I should have gone with option 3. 

I will to the "best, expected, worst" thing from now on.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Morticon]

Game 2 Overview - vs Nids. 


This game was fantastic.  Up against a great "local" player who won the last local tourney, but has been vying for blood after I tabled him twice when we played! 

 

He was using:

 

Dakka Flyrant

Swarmlord

Malenthrope

Neurothrope

 

2x 3 Rippers

2x 20 Stealears

6x Hiveguard

 

Patriarch (relic + shadow stalker)

Magus

 

13x Acos - 2 cutters

5x Acos - 4 flamers

5x Acos

 

and enough reserve points for a Kellermorph! 

 

 

His inclusion of GSC into his list has COMPLETELY nerfed my main strategy, and forced me to play in a completely different way.  As luck would have it, we were playing one of the missions where set up is done entirely.  
 

This meant that we would know who was getting first turn.  However, because of the way blips work, I wouldnt be able to do my deathwatch alpha.  

He won the role off for deploying first (ie: potentially going first) and deployed his core army about 5" behind the blips.  With kraken stealers and stormlord, despite us playing hammer and anvil, he would still not have any issue getting the stealers into combat, turn one (which he did). 

Knowing this, I opted to put every unit I could into reserve. 

I put in smashy, eversor, vanguard and both squads of DW veterans into reserve - i left the awkward 10man biker/footslogger team as a unit of 10 to spare me the CP for now. 

 

 

The stealers smashed into the line - traversing over 40" in a turn.  Thankfully, i deployed far back, and took the hiveguard out of the game for a turn. 
Also, thanks to the odd terrain rules of 8th, my guys up a building were protected from a charge/consolidation attack by the stealers for a turn, and they were unable to wrap around (despite a small mistake on my part about the activation of them).

 

** It seems to be a common misconception (at least it is back home) that if you have two units that have charged you, and you remove friendly models out of 1" distance (or even out of 4" - 3" consolidate + 1" to enemy) from the unit that has not yet fought, that that unit may no longer activate (as it doesn't have a unit within 1"). 

This is not accurate, as the second half of the activation rule allows for activation and pile in of a unit if it charged this turn! Handy for us BA to know!!! **

 

I cleaved the one stealer squad, and took a few wounds off of big monsters, but no real damage done in turn 1 from me. 

His turn 2, saw his second wave of stealers his, along with the acolytes.  However, since my boots on ground were absolutely minimal, it was just the characters and some primaris and heavy support fighting off the hordes.

 

But....by turn two....things changed.....

The reserves came in and just started cleaving.  

By turn 3 just the big guys were left, and by turn 4 he was tabled.  

Good fun, despite a lot of small mistakes being made in terms of rules! Looking forward to gaming vs. that list again. 

 

 

 

Will try post some pics later. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Panzer]

Hey all! 

 

So this weekend I play-tested the Sallies addition list vs. a Guard list, and a Tyranid/GSC list. 

 

It went really, really well.  

 

 

OVERALL THOUGHTS:

 

The Vindicare, as many are starting to notice, or who have already mentioned online, can be a little underwhelming.  Characters are easy to hide, and he really Isn't a massive damage dealer.  In game 1, he missed his first shot of the game (4th "one" I've rolled for him over 3 games now ).  

 

Hooooowever, I got to a Playtest the murder-machine (Eversor) vs the Nids - despite positioning him poorly...wow....highly recommended.  He wound up taking out 8 stealers in combat (after having a few poor rolls to boot). Because I popped his FNP, he also only took 2 wounds back.  Was great.

 

Sallies devs are GOLD.  Absolute GOLD. I have no intention of going back to BA devs, sadly   The reroll hit and wound is essentially 4 free CP a turn. Came into play every time I fired. 

 

The Sallies Smash Captain wasn't played well in both games, but I think will make a nice addition to the list.  He fits better than the other options.   Vs. certain match-ups, I'll consider giving him Shield Eternal. 

 

I will continue to playtest this list, but also want to try the double contemptor quad las madness against the nid and eldar player before i make a call. 

 

 

GAME 1 brief synopsis. 

 

I played against what I consider a FANTASTIC guard list.  It reminded me of a 5th ed list.  It wasnt the usual nonsense we all see these days, so, even though it was a slow to play against, it was cool. 

 

If memory serves, I was up against Pask, 2 Bassies, 2 Wyverns, 2 Chimeras, 2Sentinels, 1 Hellhound, 2 heavy weapons teams and then 120 guardsmen - every unit with a heavy and a special - and then 10 scions too. 

 

Unfortunately, despite being very capable, the opponent was very new - so we only got 2 turns in.  

 

Lessons learned:   STOP HEDGING BETS, MORT!!!!!!! ><; 

 

I hedge my best ALL the time, but dont often think of all the consequences.  I split attacks, to hope to try kill two things and expect to kill one, not realising there's a chance I may not kill either.  

 

In this case, smashy made it up to the lines through a gap to the wyverns.   He was in a position to kill a wyvern (or commander) and then consolidate into another wyvern.  

 

I split attacks, and duffed - leaving both units alive, and the 2nd wyvern available to fire  

 

After the game I vowed to do this mental process as a checklist:

 

BEST CASE 

EXPECTED CASE 

WORST CASE 

 

 

In this case it was:

 

1: Kill commander and Wyvern - consolidate into 2nd wyvern and eginseer 

2: Kill Wyvern - consolidate into 2nd Wyvern and enginseer.

3: Kill nothing - do nothing. 

 

Knowing option 2 would have netted me the same functional /game result, I should have gone with option 3. 

 

I will to the "best, expected, worst" thing from now on.  

 

Heh, yeah that's kinda important. Killing things snowballs you through the game. One less unit for the enemy to shoot with which means more units on your side that survive which means more damage coming at your opponent which means he'll lose more units and so on. Do that every turn and your advantage grows, but only scratch units because of bad rolls or whatever and you quickly find yourself in a disadvantaged position where your army slowly disappears while the opponent still has most of his units to work with. 

[Charlo]

Nice reps Mort. Glad to know the list is coming together!

 

Having watched some videos online the Eversor is utterly bonkers. I dread to think what 2 or 3 could do combined.

[Morticon]

Had a small epiphany yesterday about RavenGuard. 

I think if I run the dread list, I'll make them RG and use a RG Smash Captain to boost on up with the BA Smashy.  

If i run the devs, I'll go sallies.  

[lash144]

Ironhands can also be useful. You get a 6+ FnP and can ignore the -1 for moving on a single vehicle.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I don't think the 6++ ignoring wounds is anything great to be honest. I feel like IH got the short end of the stick this edition .

[lash144]

It's okay and a model with many wounds like a Dread. Plus their stratagem can prove useful.