Road to The North China Open

[CaptainHelion]

Quite the game, from the sounds of it. How did you find the Dawneagles to deal with? They're something I definitely find difficult to deal with

[Panzer]

How do you see your chances against a list with lots of ObSec hordes? The characters hit hard but they would have a hard time getting rid of 30 Ork Boyz unless you charge with multiple Captains (not to mention multiple units of those) and your shooting doesn't look potent enough for that either.

Lots of anti-quality in your list but not much for anti-quantity.

[Majkhel]

And how do you find Vindicare? Wouldn't you switch for the Eversor?
Congratulations on won the game! 

[Morticon]

Quite the game, from the sounds of it. How did you find the Dawneagles to deal with? They're something I definitely find difficult to deal with

 

I may have gotten lucky, but I found them over-hyped.  The BA hammer-caps are well equipped to deal with them.  Three Failed 4++ saves and they're dead.  Fully note that I may have gotten lucky. But, Im not too overwhelmed by them at present.

 

How do you see your chances against a list with lots of ObSec hordes? The characters hit hard but they would have a hard time getting rid of 30 Ork Boyz unless you charge with multiple Captains (not to mention multiple units of those) and your shooting doesn't look potent enough for that either.

Lots of anti-quality in your list but not much for anti-quantity.

 

The character's i'd send for clean up.   With the Veteran DW and the scout bikers, not to mention scout support I find I dont lack anti-infantry at all.  In this case, I also switch out to the Eversor, who can take on a horde of 30 boys by himself.  The 8man veteran squad puts out 29 shots, wounding on 2s, rerolling 1s to hit and wound. The 5man that usually deepstrikes down puts out 20 of the same, as does the 5man veteran bikers.  The Cap and Lib put out 4 each, too.  The scout bikers put out 36x S4 shots at 12" on top of that.   

 

All of this changes if i'm not going first - as it will in most games of 40k - but I feel like I have the necessary tools to deal with the Orks. 

 

Depending on set up, I may even put the 10man (non-combat squad) into reserve along with the 8man.  Then, when i drop in turn 2, I can vape two full-sized Boyz squads, and have the Eversor charge a third if need be.    

 

And how do you find Vindicare? Wouldn't you switch for the Eversor?

Congratulations on won the game! 

 

Thanks!!

The Eversor is my go-to, but the Vindy was better for this list.  Vs. this list I felt the eversor would have been either under or over-utilized against his units.  Kill a squad of Intercessors? Or bounce off a Dawneagle? Vindy is proving to be underwhelming in terms of damage output, but very good for help with tournament points in the ITC format.  

 

 

**********************

 

Thanks all for the comments and questions so far.  Really good to chat through things.  

[Jolemai]

Has you TO made a ruling in whether or not you can select what Assassin you want for each game, or does it need to be the same throughout (considering lists are set and can't be changed, surely you'll need to specify what unit your reinforcements points are for like Daemons do?)

[Morticon]

Has you TO made a ruling in whether or not you can select what Assassin you want for each game, or does it need to be the same throughout (considering lists are set and can't be changed, surely you'll need to specify what unit your reinforcements points are for like Daemons do?)

 

To my knowledge, and since its an optional CP that you can use at the start of the game, I believe you can choose each game.  I think that's the point of it? Can you tell me a little more about the reinforcement points? Wasn't this the whole point of summoning and a key element of how the one player did so well at one of the big GTs with a summoning list? :O 

[Jolemai]

Paying a Command Point to get an Assassin in the game is just a way of getting around putting it in a Detachment, you still have to pay the points for the model. These are reinforcement points as per the rulebook and yes, as per the normal rules you can bring on whatever Assassin you wish.

 

However, we're talking about glorified tournament houserules.

 

For example, psychic powers are chosen/generated before the battle, however, many tournaments have a ruling in place whether these are fixed for the entire tournament or not simply because lists are fixed and powers have to be stated on the list you hand in. Ergo, any Assassin - regardless of how it is "purchased" - would need to be stated on the list you hand in, no?

 

Whatever the tournament uses for Daemon summoning would, imo, be in place for Assassin requisitioning. Hence why I asked you to check :)

[Morticon]

With you on the first part!! Haven't heard of it being ruled as such anywhere in the second. The TO has chatted about them, and mentioned their versatility in their selectio, along with demons...so, should be good to go.

I'd be super curious to hear if people rule it as needing to be listed in some places!

[shanewatts]

I think the Assassins will be safe from having to be chosen in lists in most tournaments, simply because the stratagem is using during deployment and not pre-game.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You should be able to pick whichever one you want, that’s RAW .

[Jolemai]

You should be able to pick whichever one you want, that’s RAW .

 

So is being able to shoot someone on the bottom floor of a ruin but, you know, ITC houserules - which is the entire point I'm trying to bring up.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That is a great rule by ITC and I enjoy it. I live in SoCal where ITC is widely accepted, never heard one person complain about it either.

[lash144]

I for my part am fine with a "houserule" if it's from the far biggest 40k tournament system :p

[Panzer]

It's always better to ask the TO when in doubt. Houserules are houserules, don't try to argument with RAW or logic against it. ^^

[BrotherAetherick]

 

Turn 2, saw him reluctant to move forward again, worried about the prospect of 4 smash captains and a dread in his face. However, this turn allowed him to deploy his assassins- so this would be interesting!!! 

 

He cleaned up the scout bikers, cleaned up the 4man scouts and took a wound off here and there - but he was still holding back.  The RG captain used his attacks to try kill the tarantula, but duffed his wounds, getting only 1 through.  The assassins were deployed targeting the BA captains.   Both assassins made it in to combat, and the Blackknights were deployed to kill the RG Cap.  He took me down to 1 wound with the RG captain, but failed to kill him.  He had elected to fight first with the BKs.  This meant that I could use two CP (still had 5) to intercept an attack - which I did with Wings Cap - I then burned rampage, and duly smote Assassin 1 into oblivion - taking a few mortals in return. Assassin 2 did 3 wounds to Hammer Cap - and took 3 in return (requiring a save reroll to avoid dying).  Both Captains made it out alive - which was great. 

 

 

 

Just FYI you can't red rampage if you did not charge in that turn. So you wouldn't be able to to red rampage on your opponents turn.

[Morticon]

 

 

 

 

 

Just FYI you can't red rampage if you did not charge in that turn. So you wouldn't be able to to red rampage on your opponents turn.

 

EXCELLENT catch - thank you so much for that. 

[Morticon]

So, as the games go on and more consideration is given, I've gravitated strongly towards the "Flight of the Smashies" list - rather than a balance between shooting in the form of the dreads, and then the smashies.  I dont know if this is going to be the most ideal or not, but it's definitely something I'd like to try out.  Also, the thought of taking a list with no shooting greater than S4  (not counting S5 with shotguns, S6 with grenades) is a complete novelty for me. 

 

The issue now is that after looking at the Shadowspear stuff, I'm REALLY curious about the tactic discussed in the Vanguard Warlord thread. 

 

 

I'm seriously looking to make a Vanguard Libby my primary WL because of it. 

The current list is this: 

 

BA Smash Cap - Visions, Wings, Shield, Hammer

BA Smash Cap - VIsions, JP, Shield, Hammer of Baal

Libby Dread - Wings, Quickening

 

5x Scouts- SB

5x Scouts- SB

8x Scouts - CCW

 

6x Scout Bikers

 

RG Smash Cap - Ravens Fury, Hammer, Shield (WL - silent stalker)

RG Cap - Relic Blade, JP, MC Bolter

 

5x Scouts - Rifles

5x Scouts - Rifles

5x Intercessors

 

DW Cap - Hammer, JP, Beacon, SB

DW Libby - Veil, Might, JP, SB, Axe

 

8x Vets - 2Terms, 1Vanguard, 6 shields, 7 SB, Axe, Sword

10x Vets - 5Bikers, 5 Shields, 5SB

5x Intercessors

 

Assassin

 

 

The amended list would look like this: 
 

BA Smash Cap - Visions, Wings, Shield, Hammer

BA Vanguard Libby - (WL) Princeps of Deceit - Mind Raid + one other power

Libby Dread - Wings, Quickening

 

5x Scouts- SB, Bolters

7x Scouts- SB, Bolters

7x Scouts - CCW, Axe

 

5x Scout Bikers

 

BA Smash Cap - JP, Hammer, Shield 

BA Smash Cap - VIsions, JP, Shield, Hammer of Baal

 

5x Scouts - Rifles

5x Scouts - Rifles

5x Intercessors

 

DW Cap - Hammer, JP, Beacon, SB

DW Libby - Veil, Might, JP, SB, Axe

 

8x Vets - 2Terms, 1Vanguard, 6 shields, 7 SB, 2Axe

10x Vets - 5Bikers, 5 Shields, 5SB

5x Intercessors

 

Assassin

 

 

For info sake, the tournament is 5 games, using ITC format, 2 of which will have CA18 style set up, 3 of which will have CA17 set up. 

The standard deployment + pregame moves leaves me with 7 starting CP in the first list, and 10 starting CP in the second. The second also generates more CP.  I can go from having 0 CP in one turn, casting mind raid, then using it in shooting phase to nuke a character with the assassin getting another net gain of one - making the assault phase more viable.  

[Panzer]

The Vanguard Librarian is a great addition to any list imo. Powers 3-6 are just generally useful and the option to give him the Princeps of Deceit Warlord trait makes him an even more interesting option.

[CaptainHelion]

I'm inclined to agree with sfPanzer. The Vanguard Libby really benefits from still being a Librarian, so he functions in a very similar way to a regular Libby, just with some extra cool things. And Princeps of Deceit is an excellent trait that I imagine we'll see quite a bit in the future.

[Morticon]

If only Rievers got concealed positions ....

[Panzer]

If only Rievers got concealed positions ....

 

Then I'd have even less reason to consider Infiltrators and would just push 3x10 Reivers with combat blades into my opponents face turn 1. :D

[Morticon]

Hey all.  Okay, so I got the opportunity to test out the "Flight of the Smash-Captain 'Lite'" - the tactical version - ie: with the Phobos Libby.  I'll run you through the battle shortly. 


I played "list 2" from 5 posts above.

 

I was up against a regular opponent who is just getting better and better at playing his Eldar/DE/Harlie army.  

 

His list:

 

Alaitoc

Skyrunner Farseer

Warlock on Bike

20 Guardians - 2 missile platforms

5 Rangers

5 Rangers

Hemlock

6 Shining Spears

 

Troupe Master

Solitaire

Death Jester

Death Jester

4 Harlequin Bikers - 4 Haywire Cannons. 

 

Succubus - shardnet/impaler

Succubus - shardnet/impaler

15 Wyches - 2shardnet/impalers, hekatrix, impaler

15 Wyches - 2shardnet/impalers, hekatrix, impaler

5 Wyches - shardnet

DE Fighter (cant remember the name at the moment). 

 

**** 

I've played this list a few times now, and I think have won twice and lost once vs it.  But every time I play it, Will gets better with it, and the games get closer as he accounts for the BA shenanigans.  

With him having 6 characters available I chose "headhunter" as my one primary, and then "marked for death" as the other- choosing the flyers (which had to die, and the bikers- which were very high up there on the threat list - and important enough a lynchpin model that he wouldnt be able to hide them)

 

He chose the same secondaries, with the Libby Dread, DW Libby (less wounds) and the 2 scout squads as the marked squads.  

We were playing "Crucible of Champions" - where characters scoring 3 objectives gain you extra points. I lost the board selection, and was placed a corner with limited cover, although, the board was quite far, so terrain in this case wouldnt have made too much of a difference. 

 

With the Phobos Princeps Libby in command, i started using my tricks straight out the gate. My first deploy was a 7 man scout squad right up near the top of his board side, hidden behind a ruin, just outside of the max deployment area.  I followed this up with the Phobos libby too.  My second big squad of scouts i put right in the open next to his rangers which were in cover near an objective. 

 

I was hoping to mess with his deployment tactics a little bit, but I dont think it did at all, aside from maybe dedicate a 5man Wych (feels weird to type that word without the plural!)  squad to the side they were on, and maybe have the harlie bikers in support. 

 

I had more deploys than he did, so he got the plus one.  He won the roll off, and I failed to seize.  

 

Because of this, I unceremoniously removed all three units and redeployed in my backline, making the scout squad form a barrier from the shining spears.  

 

Deployment wound up looking like this...



One sniper scout squad was placed in the high ruins on the left, the other on the ruins in the middle, with a 5man scout squad on the cetnter objective.  Primaris BA were watching the right middle objective, surrounding the assassin who was in cover there too, with some nice firelines.  

 

His first turn was FAR more aggressive than I expected, and his force came running at me. 

 

 

With 12 CP to spare  (I had burned 6 on 2xVisions, 2x Relics, 1x Teleport and an Assassin) I thought Id make use of Intercepting Volley (poorly costed DW strat I feel given that most Eldar stuff with fly is either at -1 already, or can be given -1 to hit...making it underwhelming). 

 

Nevertheless, I managed to at least kill a biker.  

 

When shooting had subsided, my 5man scouts were down to 1 man, and my 7man scout squad was no more.  

 

He then used "Fire and Fade" - instead of launching his spears into combat -moving them away from harm. 

 

BA TURN 1.  

I had two Smashies (one Hammer of baal+visions, one Vanilla) on board.  I moved them up to engage the DE flyer - knowing id have to hold off taking out the hemlock when Wings-Smash arrived.  The DW Cap I flanked to the left to try engage the Harlie bikers by calling in the beacon. 

 

I wanted to make better use of the Phobos Libby and his powers,  but I positioned everything in a way to gain a +1 point for the mission having characters on three objectives. 

Shooting wise, I wind up killing a warlock with snipers, and I believe a Death Jester - the vindy did 2 dam, then rolled a 3 for headshot, then failed his second roll - i figured, why not, and rerolled it -getting a 4, which then followed up with a 6 - killing it.  I then got a CP back. 

The scout bikers had also flanked up the right side to unload fully on the wyches - they wound up kiling 8, and i didnt bother paying them more attention, thinking theyd be heavily gimped by morale, not realising that they only take one casualty due to their cult. 

 

The other shooting was limited, and with hard-to-hit in play, and the Harlie bikers natural -1, I was gimped heavily, even with the massed DW fire.  I think I only did a wound or two to the Harlie bikers.  The charge phase saw me stuff up and get blood crazed - moving BOTH Vanilla and Hammer into the attack of the Razorwing (finally remembered its name).  This meant that I moved my bloody character model off the objective.  

 

Hammer of Baal made light work of the Razorwing, and vanilla duffed his attacks/wounds at the remnants of the Wyches squad that had been shot at.  (I also forgot to charge the scout bikers in to them..like an idiot) 

 

By end turn 1, the score was 6-2 to me.  

TURN 2

Turn 2 saw him come just as aggressively.  He knew exactly which units were a threat, so baiting was really tough.  He moved into position to target my LIbby dread (giving me a chance to use Intercepting volley again). Again, he popped Hard-to-hit (or whatever its called) making my guys hit on 6s :/ 

I did manage to kill a Harlie biker- which despite it being underwhelming meant that I had 1d6 less shots to deal with. 

His Hemlock moved aggressively towards my scouts, while his 5man wych squad came out to take on the bikers. 

His Solitair and Troupe Master also came out to play with Vanilla and Hammer. 
 

 

 

 

I think he did 8 mortal wounds to Libby dread with the harlies - despite me having popped smoke, and despite him only hitting on 5s :/  Thanks partly to doom, I believe.  This was a great time to pop "Armour of Contempt" - which wound up only saving 2 wounds, but meant he was still alive.  

 

The spears had shot at the Termy-Vet squad, but didnt manage to do too much damage. Small mercies given, he had blasted my scouts with the Hemlock for 3 mortals, but subsequently forgot to shoot with it in the shooting phase.  They were safe for a round. 

 

When the Harlie bikers charged in to finish off the Dread (who by the way was T8!!! ) , I heroically intervened with the Phobos lib and the DW Lib.  

I cant quite remember how/why I burned so many CP, but by the time shooting was over, I think I only had one CP left - ihad spent one too many- which prevented me from using Honour of the Chapter if my libby dread died :(  The harlies wound up putting 3 wounds on him, and I failed all three.  :/ 

With shooting and assault, the 5man wyches wound up taking the scout bikers down to 2 men.  He also took out both captains (one with smite) the other with the HQs.

 

BA Turn 2 saw Wings come down ready to take on the Hemlock. The various other units left combat where possible to allow for shooting of the enemy stuff. I positioned my Characters on the objectives so I would have three again! 

Mind Raid didnt go off :/ Which bugged me -I got off Tenebrous Curse on the Hemlock - thinking that if I severely damaged it, but didnt kill it, it would kill itself because of the fact it has a minimum movement and Curse halves movement - SPOILER ALERT: Curse halves the characteristic- so the min movement is halved too :/ Lame.  

I did get a bit lucky as I rolled a 6 to wound on the Vindy shot at the Solitaire - i burned my last CP to get 2 more - those two more would then secure me enough to get 3d6 charge - but the lack of mind raid meant no additional attacks to secure its death. 

 

I shot up the harlie bikers, and tried to do other wounds where possible - I think the Vets moved forward towards the Rangers in cover, supported by Farseer and the Death Jester.  They cleared the rangers off in the charge.  I then made the SAME idiotic mistake, and charged my DW captain off the bloody objective :/  

Wings managed to get a bunch of wounds on the Hemlock, but saves and FNP equivalent saw it sitting pretty on 5 wounds.  :( 

The turn ended on a score of 10-6

 

TURN 3 
He dropped his guardians behind my lines, ready to mix things up.  He moved about, and positioned to shoot what he could and charge what he could, the Spears still causing havoc.  He moved the wyches out this turn too. 

In short, after all the attacks were done, my scout squad was vaped, as was my DW Libby and my DW Captain - my DW term-vet squad also went down very hard. It wasn't a good turn for the Imperial forces. 

There was still fight left, though, and the last reinforcements came down. 

I finally got mind-raid off.  i was going to use the point to get 3 more for killing the warlord who was out in the open now (the troupe master).  But, I got too lucky with 5 sniper scouts, who wound up killing the WL by themselves.  The vindy did manage to polish off the Farseer I think. (although, that may have happened in Turn 4, I cant remember. 



Smash charged in to the hemlock - but again, it survived.....albeit in one wound.  

The worst thing about these bloody vehicles is that there is NO degradation in their shooting or psychic ability.  It's really frustrating. 

 

The turn ended, and I still had two of my key targets alive.  

I think the score ended this turn on 13-9 or so (i may be out by one or two each round! so bear with me!) 

 

 

Over the next few turns, there is a glorious set of skirmish level fights, with the majorty of our armies having been totalled.  Both of us used every available shot and every unit to do what we can.  The points saw some heavy swings and roundabouts, as the game went into its 6th turn. 

I got very lucky with some rolls on Wings though, and tanked a bunch of shooting from guardians, leaving him unwounded - but unable to try chase down the hemlock -which eventually went down to sniper fire, I believe.  

The guardians tanked and took the rear objective for a turn or three, as smashy had to come help out and clear the way after having tried to clear off 3 spears - which he also failed to do (the Exarch was left alive). 

 

 

The exarch, then flew over to the Vindy side, leaving combat.

In my turn, i consolidated what forces I had to try clear off the guardians.  I wound up wiping them out, but i made yet ANOTHER fatal mistake (this is worth checking out btw - I should have checked the point score. I was up in my turn, with him not having killed any units ...and i charged the BA primaris in the exarch -they died....giving him more points than I had for killing stuff in the second last turn. 

 

The vindy managed to survive being shot at and attacked by the Exarch, but  when the dust settled, despite him only having a succubus and 5 rangers, I had not managed to kill his Spear Exarch. 

The game ended turn 6 on a score of 24-24. 


Well fought.  And great game. 



***************


POST GAME THOUGHTS 

 

  
LOVED the huge amount of CP and the reliable CP gen in the form of the assassin.  Real game changer. Loved the extra libby, mind-raid, despite it being a little underwhelming overall, and the redeploy ability. 

I HATED not having options.  Having limited shooting options is really not cool, and I will DEFINITELY need to playtest a lot more with this list to see if I think it's better than the RG support list.  

Vanilla Smash is average and I think I'll change him out for a relic blade - and if I do run this list, I'll definitely make him a DC boy too. 

 

Vindicare, who has been underwhelming in other games, was  ON FIRE today.  Really exciting and scary unit on the field today. 

I think i chose the wrong units in the spears - theyre SO tough to take down.  Hard to hit + spear ability + alaitoc = dumb. 


Comments and thoughts welcome as always. 

 

 

 

 

[BrotherAetherick]

Nice batrep.

 

You can't curse the hemlock, or any unit with the FLY keyword. You can't even target them for the mortal wound, which is quite odd.

 

I'm surprised the spears survived so long against captain smash, he's one of the best units to pick up spears with, hit on 3's, wound on 2's, every failed 6 is a dead spear including the exarch.

[Morticon]

Nice batrep.

 

You can't curse the hemlock, or any unit with the FLY keyword. You can't even target them for the mortal wound, which is quite odd.

 

I'm surprised the spears survived so long against captain smash, he's one of the best units to pick up spears with, hit on 3's, wound on 2's, every failed 6 is a dead spear including the exarch.

 

Goddamnit- I read that entirely wrong - for some reason I thought it was units ONLY with the fly. ><; bleh.  

Thanks again for the catch.  

 

I was surprised too, he was rolling 6s like it was nobodies business.  I think of the 5 attacks, I got three wounds, 2 of which he saved.  I think in retrospect, i should have left off hammer cap and wings cap and tried to target the Spears from the strike.  

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You’re one of the first persons besides me to use SS units competitively... we are learning.