Road to The North China Open

[Morticon]

Mind Raid is the go to. I think the others are entirely average imho. If you are in a tournament environment that allows changing per game, I would switch between Temporal Corridor and Tenebrous Curse, depending on opponents. If you have other phobos units then scryers gaze or shrouding becomes more useful.

 

If you're rocking an SM (not BA) phobos libby, then the Time + corridor+ nullzone work brilliantly

[Panzer]

Keep in mind that Tenebrous Curse doesn't just make charges harder. Halving the Movement stat and the advance roll is also pretty devastating for units who want to grab objective or get into position to shoot stuff. ^^

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Most I want to use the one that slows down an enemy unit... that sounds pretty dirty to me.

[Morticon]

Okay all, so, one more little tweak. I currently have a squad of 5 Raven Guard intercessors in the mix.

They work well with the -1 to hit, so, they're hardy and with the RG strat to move them up on to objectives outside my deployment.

However, I can also make the 5man DEATHWATCH Intercessor squad a 10man one instead- giving me access to more SIA.

What do you think for the tournament? I'm leaning towards the DW
What do you guys rate?

 

 

EDIT: Here is a more detailed comparison. 
 

Death Watch: 

 

The ability to have 5more DW Primaris means that I can have a squad of 10. 

 

* This allows me the possibility of splitting them if they are chosen as a target (making it much tougher for opponent to get a point)

* This allows for 10 more shots of special issue ammo at base -1AP. 

* This allows me to Deepstrike, or "beacon-call"  a meaty, 20 wound unit to the battlefront. 

 

Raven Guard: 

* If I choose Princeps, which is a little less likely given the fact not much can use it, I can have a unit to move. 

* RG have a -1 to hit at range, meaning they're more likely to hold an objective (although, them camping on an objective isn't the best use of 85points). 

* With RG pregame move strat, I can have the unit on an objective from the start of the game, or have a primaris squad up much further than it would usually be. 

 

 

[CaptainHelion]

I'm inclined towards the DW, myself. I like the oomph of the larger unit

[Xenith]

The two options seem similar in that they are wound-dense/resilient, and have different deployment options or can get up the field quickly, however at the expense of command points.

 

Would a squad of infiltrators be a reasonable substitute? Same wounds, etc, but can get the apothecary, could also be RG for added survivability. You just pay a point premium for them. 

[Charlo]

I like the Deathwatch personally.

 

Using beacon on a beefy unit will be a real game changer with the SIA.

[Morticon]

Some really good thoughts all. Thanks for contributing.

 

I playtested the RG tonight. They were amazing.

 

 

Really worked for what they needed to. Also, I don't know how often I'm going to keep the DW in a squad of ten, but I will Play test this. It looks really solid.

 

I'd LOVE RG infiltrators, but just don't have the points at the moment.

[Morticon]

Yesterday was a bit of a fun, casual game with a local gamer buddy who plays IG and is starting orks.  He's really invested in his orks at the moment, but didnt have enough points to make 2k, so, with me needing the practice with some armour, I was happy to let him use some IG armour as support. 

Little did I know he would be taking a Macharius Vulcan!! 

 

I wont give a full battle report, suffice to say that despite my opponent being a newer, and generally thematic player, I really had a lot of learning moments.

 

Takeaways were:

 

1: The Eversor needs to burn a CP for 4+++ if he intends consolidating into units with lots of attacks. (He died pathetically after killing a  Weirdboy). 

 

2: The "Recon" mission, which has become a go-to secondary in the ITC format is quite a poor choice in a "Dawn of War" type set up- where its the "standard" deployment.  I've been playing so many games on other map types recently that I havent had a chance to see it work. Even with scouts, getting into 4 quarters pushes you quite close to the enemy.  

 

3:  The Contemptor Mortis dreads are (I guess obvious?) workhorses. Not game changers, but solid.  One was taken out cheaply and quickly, but even though another was gimped, they just still kept throwing out the las.  I like the options it gives me- just wish one was a DW version...would be really cool for some shenanigans - but I think the added resilience is great.  

 

4:  Raven guard tactics are very good for tourney play, and Shadowspear have made them a REALLY nice army.  The -1 to hit is really good, and coupled with camo-cloaks and 3+ save, its Tanky. 

 

5: The Phobos Libby was a little poor this time round.  He opted for Silent Stalker again, given that it was mission two (ie: full deploy) and I have a feeling that, despite me loving the Princeps idea, Silent Stalker is going to see more use against tourney focused lists with massive shooty potential.  

 

Especially since I'm mixing detachments and dont get the option to move Smashy into a good position should he need it. 

 

I feel that if i was playing a different build, phobos libby with princeps, infiltrators and/or scouts and smash cap would form the core of the movement shenanigans. Will HIGHLY recommend this to BA players.

 

DC too, actually.  

 

How many times have you had a situation where you thought youd go second and deployed the DC far away, or thought youd go first, and deployed DC up close, only to be seized on . With Princeps, you now get the option to completely move them where-ever you'd like accordingly.  It really is a big one that I cant speak more highly of (for specific builds!). 

 

6:  The big mixed DW Veteran Squad was deployed into reserve - which I dont normally do, but I really liked it.  Instead I deployed the stormshield/bolter 5man (split with the bikers) backfield.  They actually provided a really good little firesupport base thanks to beta-bolters. I feel DW are likely to lose this somehow (perhaps influenced by a recent read online) - but smoke em while you got em.  I liked having the option to bring the 8man on at a later stage. I think when I playtest the next list, and I use the 10man strong intercessor squad for the DW, i'll have them in reserve though.  I really like the idea of them coming down mid game. 

 

This also allowed me the chance to use my beacon elsewhere.  It actually came in super handy when I pulled units out of combat.  And since the teleport move doesn't count as a fallback (much like On Wings of Fire), they're free to move about and shoot - so it gives some solid tactical options. I may look to playing the beacon (and captain) more reservedly so I can do more tricks like this. 

 

 

That's all for now! 

As usual, please keep the thoughts, comments and ideas coming! 

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

[BrotherAetherick]

 

3:  The Contemptor Mortis dreads are (I guess obvious?) workhorses. Not game changers, but solid.  One was taken out cheaply and quickly, but even though another was gimped, they just still kept throwing out the las.  I like the options it gives me- just wish one was a DW version...would be really cool for some shenanigans - but I think the added resilience is great.  

 

 

What did you mean you wish there was DW version? DW can take them too. However, I honestly think raven guard ones are better because usually you want your mission tactics to be troops and if you don't buy the tome relic he won't really benefit from mission tactics.

[Morticon]

Yo! Yessir!! what I meant was, I wish I had space in my list to fiddle it to make him a DW version. I like the ability to quadlaser snipe tyranid synapse! Or get the Reroll ones on something heavy. But the -1 to hit will be better I think

[Morticon]

Greetings all! 


So...... 

 

I had three games this weekend.  All with some version of my final list - one of which was a little bit of a decoy in terms of some of the bells and whistles that the "real" list offers - exact same models, but different units.  This was on account of the fact my opponent will be playing in the NCO, too - and guard are incredibly tough.  The thing was, however, that I really really enjoyed how the Phobos Libby played when he was a BA unit (on account of the Princeps WLT).  But, overall (and I was keeping track of it), the RG tactics will be far, far better I think. 

I playtested the chunky 10 man intercessors.  In the first game they combat-squadded to avoid giving points, so played as would be expected.  But, in the second two games, man....scary stuff.  10 man squad is really, really nice. Especially with SIA on the Primaris bolters! 

 

I also kept the biker and shield veterans together (which i may do in the future against IG) - the bikers tend to go down cheaply to high S shots, while the shields go down to volume of fire.  The squad together means theyre getting an average toughness of 5 and a 3++ to tank. Makes it really, really hardy. 

 

 

The Contemptors worked exactly as I expected.  Solid work-horses rather than single-unit powerhouses. They fill a really good role in my list, providing me with some scary firepower, but also providing a big enough threat to take away from some other units. 

Game 1 was vs a triple battalion IG list. 

 

90 guard, 3 tank commanders (incl. Pask), 2 Wyverns, 2 Bassies and a mortar squad - and an annoying Calidus Assassin.   

 

Game 2 was vs a Guard/Admech/BA list.

 

30 Guard, 3 Tank commanders (incl. Pask), 2 Wyverns, 3 Armiger Helverins, 3 scout squads, Libby Dread, Smashy and an Assassin.

 

Game 3 was vs. mech BA. 

 

Smash Cap

Corbulo

2x 5 Sniper Scouts

2x 5 Tac - Hvy Flamer, Cmbi-melta, Axe

 

Dread - TLLC/TLAC

Dread - TLLC/Fist

Scorpios

Sicaran Venator

8 Vanguard Vets - Axe, Swd, Maul, 5 shields

 

Quad Mortar

Leviathan Dread. 

 

Razor - TLAC

Razor - TLLC

 

 

 

Will give some full BatReps and pics later! 

[CaptainHelion]

Glad to hear the 10man unit of DW Intercessors is working out! Given it was my vote, I'm always happy to be proven right :P. Especially when I was working, in essence, in a vacuum, having neither played with or against DW this edition. 

Same for the Contemptors. They're a great unit.

[Morticon]

D-day (list submission date) is 5 days away. 

 

There are still two options floating around in my head despite me leaning towards one side.  Because I play small tournaments, my tournament regular tournament strategy is to acquire intel, and then ensure my list (all things being equal) can beat what I regard are the toughest lists.  Going in as blind as I am, means that there are too many variables that I'm unaware of. 

This is what is causing me the trepidation/second guessing. 

 

IG gunline and Tau are going to be the toughest matchups for me.  In these games, I feel like my second choice list would be better than the first. 

 

However, the first choice list seems like it at least gives me a broader set of tools to work with against more unknowns - hence it being my first choice.  

If you've been following this thread, even if you dont usually comment, please feel free to click a "like" for either FIRST CHOICE or SECOND CHOICE listed below.  No need to comment or justify, can be entirely subjective - i'm just curious to see how other people see it. 
 

FIRST CHOICE

 

______

BA Captain - Jump Pack, Hammer, Shield  (Usually -1CP for Wings, -1CP for Visions)

BA Libby Dread - Storm Bolter

 

5x Scouts - CCW, Pwr Axe

5x Scouts - Bolters, Storm Bolter, Heavy Bolter

5x Scouts - Bolters, Storm Bolter

______

DW Captain - Jump Pack, Hammer, Storm Bolter (Usually -1CP for Beacon)

DW Libby - Force Axe, Storm Bolter, Jump Pack (Usually Might of Heroes & Veil of Time)

 

10x Intercessors - 2Grenades

10x Veterans - 5 Bikers, 5Storm Shields, 5Storm Bolters  

8x Veterans - 2Terminators, 1Vanguard, 6Storm Shields, 7Storm Bolters, 1Power Axe, 1PowerSword

______

RG Phobos Libby (WL - Usually Silent Stalker, possibly Target Priority) (Mind Raid & One other) (Usually Armour Indomitus, or Tome of Malacor)

 

1x Contemptor Mortis Dread  - 4Lascannons

1x Contemptor Mortis Dread  - 4Lascannons

3x Eliminators

 

5x Scout Bikers 

+ (Assassin)

[Morticon]

SECOND CHOICE

 

______

BA Captain - Jump Pack, Hammer, Shield  (Usually -1CP for Wings, -1CP for Visions)

BA Libby Dread - Storm Bolter

 

5x Scouts - CCW, Pwr Axe

5x Scouts - Sniper Rifles

5x Scouts - Bolters, Storm Bolter

______

DW Captain - Jump Pack, Hammer, Storm Bolter (Usually -1CP for Beacon)

DW Libby - Force Axe, Storm Bolter, Jump Pack (Usually Might of Heroes & Veil of Time)

 

5x Intercessors - Grenade

10x Veterans - 5 Bikers, 5Storm Shields, 5Storm Bolters  

8x Veterans - 2Terminators, 1Vanguard, 6Storm Shields, 7Storm Bolters, 1Power Axe, 1PowerSword

______

RG Phobos Libby (WL - Usually Princeps of Deceit, sometimes Silent Stalker) (Mind Raid & One other) (Usually Armour Indomitus, or Tome of Malacor)

RG Captain - Jump Pack, Hammer, Shield (Usually -1CP for Relic JP or Shield Eternal) 

 

5x Intercessors - Grenade

5x Scouts - Bolters, Storm Bolter
5x Scouts - Bolters, Storm Bolter, Heavy Bolter

1x Contemptor Mortis Dread  - 4Lascannons

5x Scout Bikers - Storm Bolter

+ (Assassin)


______________________

For a quick comparison, the second list offers more CP - an effective start of 13 or 14 vs. 10  - both lists of which often put two units into Teleportium (burning another 2CP).   

The second list also has more Troops, and with RG shenanigans and Princeps, the mobility and redeploy options are fantastic in an ITC environment.

However, the second list also seriously lacks firepower and if the characters are neutralised, the ability to take out big threats is crushed.  

[BrotherAetherick]

Will the impending FAQ be in in place for the tourney? You may want to wait until it's out. Could shake up the competitive meta a lot.

[Morticon]

Will the impending FAQ be in in place for the tourney? You may want to wait until it's out. Could shake up the competitive meta a lot.

 

The ruling for the tourney is that all points changes will be accepted if the FAQ drops before the 4th (submission date), as well as FAQ clarifications.  Beta rules would be decided on a case by case basis I believe.  But, its getting to the point where unless it drops today or tomorrow, it's unlikely to change things greatly. 

[BrotherAetherick]

I much prefer the first list. 4 more cp is nice in all, but in my opinion the second contemptor adds a lot more to your list than 2 more squads of scouts and the RG captain. Having just 1 ranged anti tank risks it just being annihilated turn 1 and you're back to using characters to try to get through screens to hit tanks again.

 

I'm not sure if it's possible to get the model in time (also failcast), but I would recommend a thunderfire cannon in the first list replacing the eliminators. Gives you a techmarine to repair contemptors, indirect fire (very important for ITC especially if there's a lot of LOS blocking ruins) and one of the best strats in the game in the form of tremor shells. You can slow two units down to a crawl with the phobos and the thunderfire every turn.

 

The 20 points can be found if you take off the axe in the scouts, the axe in the vets, downgrade the axe to a staff and take off his storm bolter, and storm bolters on scouts. May cause more WYSIWYG problems if you don't have replacement models.

[Ceril]

Can our BA scouts use stormbolters? Marine codex has the option, battlescribe lets us add them, but the codex doesn't list it:

 

• The Scout Sergeant may replace his bolt pistol with an item from the Melee Weapons or Pistols lists.

• The Scout Sergeant may replace his boltgun with an item from the Pistols list.

 

What we are lacking is access to Sergeant Equipment, or combi weapon list.

 

If there has been an FAQ I've missed it, searching games-workshop there doesn't seem to be one. Nor anything in official BA FAQ/errata.

[Brother Cruoris]

I think it's an index option.

[BrotherAetherick]

 

 

The ruling for the tourney is that all points changes will be accepted if the FAQ drops before the 4th (submission date), as well as FAQ clarifications.  Beta rules would be decided on a case by case basis I believe.  But, its getting to the point where unless it drops today or tomorrow, it's unlikely to change things greatly. 

 

 

FAQ is out FYI.

[Panzer]

Yeah you might want to read the part about Deathwatch and Bolter Discipline and the part about using the Cherub with the Mortal wound Stratagems. 

[shanewatts]

And using princeps redeploy

[Panzer]

Yeah that as well. Almost forgot about it already. One of my favourite new things to play around with and it's already gone lol

[Morticon]

And using princeps redeploy

 

Thanks for that! Makes it a lot less useful! 

 

Assassins also up to 2CP now, and DW SIA taking a hit is tough - though not a biggie for me on account of how I play them. 

Can our BA scouts use stormbolters? Marine codex has the option, battlescribe lets us add them, but the codex doesn't list it:

 

• The Scout Sergeant may replace his bolt pistol with an item from the Melee Weapons or Pistols lists.

• The Scout Sergeant may replace his boltgun with an item from the Pistols list.

 

What we are lacking is access to Sergeant Equipment, or combi weapon list.

 

If there has been an FAQ I've missed it, searching games-workshop there doesn't seem to be one. Nor anything in official BA FAQ/errata.

 

As noted above, it's in the Index (y) 

I much prefer the first list. 4 more cp is nice in all, but in my opinion the second contemptor adds a lot more to your list than 2 more squads of scouts and the RG captain. Having just 1 ranged anti tank risks it just being annihilated turn 1 and you're back to using characters to try to get through screens to hit tanks again.

 

I'm not sure if it's possible to get the model in time (also failcast), but I would recommend a thunderfire cannon in the first list replacing the eliminators. Gives you a techmarine to repair contemptors, indirect fire (very important for ITC especially if there's a lot of LOS blocking ruins) and one of the best strats in the game in the form of tremor shells. You can slow two units down to a crawl with the phobos and the thunderfire every turn.

 

The 20 points can be found if you take off the axe in the scouts, the axe in the vets, downgrade the axe to a staff and take off his storm bolter, and storm bolters on scouts. May cause more WYSIWYG problems if you don't have replacement models.

 

You sir.....are on to something.....

 

I'll see what I can do.