BloodWolves Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 Which would you go with? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354151-loyal-32-vs-rusty-17/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
sairence Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 Probably depends a lot on what else you bring. A Knight list I reckon would get more value out of two Techpriests healing and strategem access. In general, the Guard is probably the more universally useful one. As a Guard player I hope more AdMech detachments start popping up. Might redirect some hate away... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354151-loyal-32-vs-rusty-17/#findComment-5264472 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighMarshalAmp Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 Since a CP Battery is meant to free up space you can in turn fill with higher value units, the exact loadout of the battery isn't all that relevant. What remains is the ablative wound count and 32 > 17. Hence, in isolation, the 32 are superior. With the Onager though, you suddenly have a surprisingly cheap anti tank platform that your HQs can repair, so that and their rather more exciting weapons give the 17 the edge in terms of both additional support options while keeping the cost low and variety of playstyle (sorry, IG, it's not you, it's me). Plus, if you're really just after CP and have another main army you'd like to focus on, 17 models will be painted sooner than 32 ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354151-loyal-32-vs-rusty-17/#findComment-5264507 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodWolves Posted February 26, 2019 Author Share Posted February 26, 2019 Well I just was wanting a broad overview but thanks all! I like the guard aesthetically but the ability to heal knights always seem to sway me. Im wanting to run 1250pts of knights but mostly 3 armigers and maybe one Crusader. Or 1500 with Crusader, Gallant, Warden. I also like the guard just to add a Psyker to my HQ to help stop or do some psyker shenanigans. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354151-loyal-32-vs-rusty-17/#findComment-5264675 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 Probably best thing to do is play test both builds if possible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354151-loyal-32-vs-rusty-17/#findComment-5264704 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exilyth Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 Loyal 32 (2 company commanders, 3 infantry squads) cost 180 pts barebones, 5 units w/32 wounds total. Mass of bodies with orders, can 'hide' HWTs in squads. Enables access to units like leman russ, basilisk, HWTs, sentinels, ogryns, hellhounds. Rusty 17 (2 enginseers, 3 squads of 5 rangers) cost 165 pts barebones, 5 units w/23 wounds total. Better save and shooting, can 'heal' certain vehicles. Enables access to units like onagers, ballistari, kataphrons, electro priests, infiltrators. Both enable access to certain options, e.g. an onager w/icarus array vs. a hydra for AA duty, or an onager w/neutron laser vs. a leman russ for AT. Which one is better for your list depends on what your list is bringing/lacking. If you only need one detachment and have enough points leftover, you could take both the rusty 17 w/an onager for AA(array) or AT(laser) and the loyal 32 w/mortar HWTs and a leman russ for AI & AT. I don't have the point cost for an onager at hand currently, but if I remember correctly, barebones 17+32 should leave enough room to fit one onager into 500 points and leave some room for some cheap upgrades (e.g. mortars). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354151-loyal-32-vs-rusty-17/#findComment-5264923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodWolves Posted February 27, 2019 Author Share Posted February 27, 2019 I know its not the most optimal build. But I just did this up on battle scribe.. I mostly play 1250pt games. 1st. Battalion: Imperial Guard 1 Company Commander 1 Psyker 3 Infantry Squads 3 HWT w/ Mortars 2nd. Battalion: Ad Mech 2 Tech Priest 3 Ranger Squads 3rd. Super Heavy Det.: Imperial Knights Knight Crusader w/ RFBC + Stormspear Armiger Helverin Armiger Warglaive Total: 1250 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354151-loyal-32-vs-rusty-17/#findComment-5265323 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 Wouldn’t it be better to run the Armigers kitted the same ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354151-loyal-32-vs-rusty-17/#findComment-5265325 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focslain Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 Wouldn’t it be better to run the Armigers kitted the same ? There is a 10 pts difference between the warglaive and the helverin (warglaive being cheaper), they also fill two different roles with the helverin being good at range and the warglaive as a good assault unit. It seems that the 1250 list lacks a good assault unit and all the support fire is from the knights. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354151-loyal-32-vs-rusty-17/#findComment-5265440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 Since here in this forum we are really discussing potential builds to CP farm for Custodes it seems I would kit them both the same for redundancy . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354151-loyal-32-vs-rusty-17/#findComment-5265443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focslain Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 Since here in this forum we are really discussing potential builds to CP farm for Custodes it seems I would kit them both the same for redundancy . In that case it depends on your Custodes build, if foot slogging I'd suggest the warglaive as a bull rusher, if mostly bikers then the helverins for good fire support. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354151-loyal-32-vs-rusty-17/#findComment-5265451 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 I actually find the Hevlerins to be overated. I know they have amazing range and flat D3 but is only AP1 and variable number of shots . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354151-loyal-32-vs-rusty-17/#findComment-5265473 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_149 Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 Yeah it's the variable number of shots that sucks the most 4d3 means your averaging 8 hitting on 3+ so now your down to 5/6 then whatever your shooting at gets its saving throw so maybe 2 get through :( like the sisters exorcist basically to random to be reliable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354151-loyal-32-vs-rusty-17/#findComment-5266122 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focslain Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 Yeah it's the variable number of shots that sucks the most 4d3 means your averaging 8 hitting on 3+ so now your down to 5/6 then whatever your shooting at gets its saving throw so maybe 2 get through like the sisters exorcist basically to random to be reliable. Thing is that the Thermal spear on the warglaive is d3 shots, also random. It just has a better CC attack then the helverin does. True the helverins cannon isn't uber-good, but when it lands a hit it hurts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354151-loyal-32-vs-rusty-17/#findComment-5266156 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 I never have any problems versus Helverins tbh... just jump in cover and good to go . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354151-loyal-32-vs-rusty-17/#findComment-5266169 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodWolves Posted February 28, 2019 Author Share Posted February 28, 2019 Well I would have a Vanguard of Warglaives as a full assualt and guard objective with troops and have a Crusader w/ RFBC as a backline makeshift Basilisk. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354151-loyal-32-vs-rusty-17/#findComment-5266188 Share on other sites More sharing options...
librisrouge Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 It occurs to me, after reading a thread in the admech section, that the Rusty 17 may be more advantageous for purely the reason of the strategems it unlocks. You get a 2nd mortal wound shield strategem. You also get Knight of the Cog, enabling one knight a turn to take advantage of Canticles. That could be huge, depending on how you use it. Admittedly, this requires you to be a Questor Mechanicus house but, if you're playing competitively, you already are in order to get a Cawl's Wrath Castellan. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354151-loyal-32-vs-rusty-17/#findComment-5266773 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanewatts Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 Keep in mind that in order for a knight to benefit from Canticles, all units in that detachment need to have the canticles rule. So only a solo knight in a super heavy aux can benefit from that strat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354151-loyal-32-vs-rusty-17/#findComment-5266776 Share on other sites More sharing options...
librisrouge Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 Keep in mind that in order for a knight to benefit from Canticles, all units in that detachment need to have the canticles rule. So only a solo knight in a super heavy aux can benefit from that strat. Huh, did not know that. Never mind then. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354151-loyal-32-vs-rusty-17/#findComment-5266826 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodWolves Posted March 3, 2019 Author Share Posted March 3, 2019 I feel like it comes down to Psyker Defence or the ability to repair. Or a Leman Russ vs Dunecrawler. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354151-loyal-32-vs-rusty-17/#findComment-5268255 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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