Shadowspear unit discussion

[Excessus]

A personal annoyance is the toes of one of the oblits. I hated the toes on the DV helbrute, and I still hate them on that oblit. I will be putting some GS on those toes for sure...

[balordazul]

A personal annoyance is the toes of one of the oblits. I hated the toes on the DV helbrute, and I still hate them on that oblit. I will be putting some GS on those toes for sure...

 

Green stuff Talons as those would be a simple and easy change that might look good.

[ChazSexington]

 

 

I know we're yet to see the strats, psychic powers etc but does this release really do anthing for Possessed? I am desperate to get them onto the table (last time I used them they go blown away before making combat - all 20 of them) and using them.

 

My first thought was putting 8 + Greater Possessed and Dark Apostle in a Dreadclaw and going full tilt for the enemy. Any thoughts?

 

They give them +1 Strength, so not too bad. I'm not convinced its enough, but it helps. Greater Possessed have the Character keyword, so they've got some protection. They seemingly don't hit that hard though. WS 2+ and minimum S6 (we don't know what its weapons, Daemonic Mutations, do).

 

I suspect the the two new codexes are in fact mini codex is that just come with the box set and are intended to be used with the main line codexis so I wouldn't get concerned about it not being able to interact with your existing army

 

It was announced they would be mini codices.

 

Also sounds like they will cost as much as helbrutes.

 

Which unit? Venomcrawlers are more expensive, but for good reason. 

 

 

We do know what the mutations do, it was on the leaked datasheet.

 

How do you know what the Venomcrawler costs in points? VCs and brutes are the same power level of 7.

 

 

I'm just extrapolating from the PLs. Helbrutes have net come down quite a bit in points (but not PL), which skews their PL thingy. IIRC, mine used to cost, inc. wargear, around 130pts. 20pts per PL is the general rule of thumb. 

[Sonoftherubric21]

I read somewhere that the "average" PL now post all the big points updates is now much closer to 15 Points Per Power Level. 

Though I don't have any numbers to base that on myself off hand. As you said helbrutes (along with tons of vehicles and many units) shot down in points and some came up with PL being unaltered so its not a perfect 1-1 formula anymore. 

who knows how that will effect oblits and Venomcrawler given the wild point ranges.  If oblits are 100 each or less? They will be fine.  If they are 120 each? tough sell against helbrutes and that may cause issues......though having a 2+/5++ and assault weaponry meaning it can move and fire at full effect WITH guaranteed alpha through deepstrike is a selling point in of itself I don't think that 4 wounds should cost 120 per model. 

100 or hovering right around that or slightly less seems reasonable. as they are 65 each pre-buff I think that 35 points for +1 wound, +2 attacks + a new melee weapon + Tough 5 is close to perfect.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Little bump due to the Maelific Lore coming out: 

I would say that out of the 6 spells around 4 of them have incredible potential. 

Sacrifice has hilarious potential if you just wail on a Warpsmith for healing hurt engines or daemons. (Note: can also work on princes and greater possessed!!!) I see some potential here for forgefiends, venomstalkers, and defilers definitely given the gunner load outs both of these can take. the 4+ to hit won't mean a whole lot with rampant re-rolls all over the place. 
 

Mutated Invigoration helped immensely with the random attack rolls for possessed and has the potential to help obliterators as well! Does this make possessed "good"? I am not sure but you can bet Ill give them a shot and get some practice in....they are getting closer, str 6, 2-3 attacks each certainly helps. 

Cursed Earth is *stellar* giving all daemons a base 4++ nearby, oblits, and as of writing it effects all daemon engines as well. giving defilers, maulers, forgefiends and the like a 4++ without further buffs/protection. 

Infernal power is great! it turns the MOP into an "Chaos Lord / Lieutenant" mixture for a low warp charge. Put this near a unit in melee or a unit shooting (again, oblits, defiler, forgefiend) and you are looking at RR 1 to wound, AND RR1 to hit for a warp charge 6 spell. 

 

Frankly given the design of the lore I can envision a list with a Daemon Prince and 2 Masters of Possession filled with cultist troops, a couple of units of possessed, 3-4 of greater possessed and several obliterators and fill the rest with daemon engines. 

I think something like that has INCREDIBLE potential and almost every model in the army would be multi-wound with easy access to regen/healing. 

[Khornestar]

Can summoned daemons be given relics, if paid for with CP before the battle? Er, or stratagems such as the banner of blood upgrade?

 

Also, this power (unless there's something I'm missing) doesn't mean the MoP can't still summon at the beginning of the movement phase.

 

Depending on where the MoP is, that could be pretty badass. Summon in two skull cannons, or whatever is needed.

 

 

Also, the Hellwright from the IA book (and Dark Abeyant form) has the Warpsmith keyword, so they could potentially be a larger reservoir of wound healing. That's d3+3 wounds healed per turn with the power and a daemon engine as the target. Warp charge 4 essentially guarantees the power going off. 6 wounds healed in a turn on a Lord of Skulls or something would be huge. Shoot, even on a Mauler/Forgefiend, that's over half their wounds returned. Not that it would happen every time, but still!

 

Also, Warp Charge 4 for a "guaranteed" mortal wound in combat is pretty badass as well. Why the hell not?

[Prot]

I am a little worried about Oblits. Hopefully without reason. I just fear their points since they were something that worked well, I just hope this isn’t a stealthy way of turning them down. I can’t tell how much they shoot now. The survivability factor is okay, but not 100 points okay. ( I really don’t care about their fists).

 

I don’t mind the toes.... I think it’s indicative of what they go through and I imagine those physical changes help them survive.

 

Speaking of bird feet... that new rotary gun dude has the chicken look going too. I think I may clip some depending in the variety of Havoc sets in the future. I don’t want a squad of 4 of these guys looking like they’re trying to escape the nest or something. ;)

 

Still dying to hear psychic powers and the Venom crawler points. I mean that’s one model I really want to use lots of.

 

I’m converting spare Crimson Slaughter Rhinos for Black Legion.

 

Also I’m still really hoping Abaddon is sub 300 personally.

[General Strike]

Yeah, I really hope Obliterators aren't 100pts each. I want to run a least two units of them.

[Khornestar]

The psychic powers had been leaked earlier today:

 

[Danny Cyanide]

I love cursed earth and sacrifice!

[Excessus]

Sacrifice and infernal power, then park the MoP between 2 venomcrawlers and some oblits. Sinc ethe venom crawlers regain wounds each turn you can just do MWs to them all the time without worry...

[Danny Cyanide]

Sacrifice on a Hellwright, who also regens a wound each turn, has the WARPSMITH keyword, and will pump 3 healed wounds into a daemon engine, healing d3 wound on another. 2 Forgefiends around the Infernal powered MOP with a cultist bubble wrap. It's a pretty sweet castle!

[helterskelter]

Cursed Earth and Sacrifice would probably be my go to powers for now, I do have a warpsmith but I like him, buuuuut if it means getting the maulerfiend out of a pickle healing for guaranteed 3 for the loss of a wound is no biggy

[Excessus]

Sacrifice on a Hellwright, who also regens a wound each turn, has the WARPSMITH keyword, and will pump 3 healed wounds into a daemon engine, healing d3 wound on another. 2 Forgefiends around the Infernal powered MOP with a cultist bubble wrap. It's a pretty sweet castle!

 

Oooh, good idea with the Hellwright, I always forget about them!

[Iron_Within]

Yeah, I really hope Obliterators aren't 100pts each. I want to run a least two units of them.

They're very likely to be 100-120 points each

[Panzer]

I'm so tempted to build a firebase with Cursed Earth and Infernal Power lol

Fiends with a 4++ and re-rolling 1s for hits and wounds sounds awesome.

[Sonoftherubric21]

 

Yeah, I really hope Obliterators aren't 100pts each. I want to run a least two units of them.

They're very likely to be 100-120 points each

 

 

I do not forsee 120, but Id say 100 is all but guaranteed. Which IMHO is fine given their individual power and use. 

[Marshal Loss]

 

 

Yeah, I really hope Obliterators aren't 100pts each. I want to run a least two units of them.

They're very likely to be 100-120 points each

 

 

I do not forsee 120, but Id say 100 is all but guaranteed. Which IMHO is fine given their individual power and use. 

 

 

A guy on Dakka is saying he saw a leak of 115 but I don't have a source myself. It fits the ballpark though

[Panzer]

Just keep in mind that their rules and point costs likely got printed before the CA2018 so they might not be in their final version at release.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Even at 115 its pricey but I will still use them quite a bit.  Ideal would be less but ill take it. 

 

And the above is true regarding printing. 

[helterskelter]

345pts for 12w 2+ 5++ 18 randomised stat shots that can deepstrike if needed. However back this up with an appropriately powered MOP (so sub 500 points for the whole group) that's a 4++ and better chance of more desirable weapon stats.

Seems fair for the most part, and we haven't seen new stratagem or warlord traits yet

[Prot]

Oh gees 115 per Oblit? I hope that's wrong... gotta be wrong. 

 

The thing is I don't really like Havocs. I just think loyalists do that bubble, shooty, stagnant thing much better, and quite frankly I think it's a bit boring for my playstyle. Even with Ultra's I never sat back. With my Crimson Slaughter / Corsairs it was full tilt all the time. Even Thousand Sons are a good mid-ground army.

 

Oblits work well with the theme of this box not just because they are Daemonic, but because they can keep up with the buffs, etc, and not sacrifice efficiency. But if they are 115 each, I'll have to reconsider. They will force me to babysit at that cost, and there's too many 'fun' things to explore right now in the new stuff. 

[RolandTHTG]

Honestly, since they're rumored to go back to the 1-3 option, you can get 2 of these new guys for not much of an increase in points over the previous 3-set, and still have 12 shots for 1 less total wound but one more toughness.

(funny how there's two of them in the box set...)

[Sception]

yeah, 115 sounds about like what I'd expect, though personally I think it's about 10 to 15 points higher than it should be.

 

I think oblits are pretty decent (to the point that any CSM stuff is in general) at 195 for three.  Comparing to that, two of the new ones would have the same shooting output, +1 toughness (though -1 wound), +1 strength in melee, -1 ap in melee, -3 melee attacks, but the remaining 6 attacks all deal double damage on average.  All in all, I'd call it a bit of a buff, probably worth a few extra points even if the main function of the unit - its shooting output - remains unchanged.  Again, probably not worth 35 points more.  Maybe 10 to 20 points more.

 

Though of course, that's assuming oblits as even one of the more decent CSM units previously, were reasonably pointed to begin with.  I haven't played competitive enough games in 8e to have a meaningful opinion there, though in my handful of casual games, abby, 3 oblits, and either 3 more oblits (so I could roll fleshmetal twice, and cacophony whichever rolled better) or a termie sorcerer for extra buffs always did good work when they ported in.

 

Even if the points are a bit less favorable overall, greater flexibility in unit size is nice.  If you are playing the cacophony game as a key offensive element, the ability to throw out twelve more shots from the unit (including extra shots from the stratagem) is great, even at a premium in points.  It's like shooting 3 times with the old unit instead of just twice.  If you just want some support and you aren't throwing all your eggs in one basket, 1 new oblit has half the firepower of the old unit at not that much more than half the price, and you can put those saved points elsewhere.  Alternatively, 2 separate units of 1 new oblit each is a fair bit more flexible than one old unit of three.

 

 

I don't think I'd call new oblits at 115 better than their old rules, at least at first blush, but I wouldn't really call them worse, either.  More than a lateral shift, which I'm personally ok with, as again I thought the old oblits weren't bad already.  But again, I don't have much 8e experience, certainly not in the competitive sphere, so... *shrug*.

 

 

new preview up:  https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/06/mar-6-shadowspear-focus-daemonkin-rulesgw-homepage-post-2/

 

mostly old news by this point, (and I'm probably ninjad to heck on this link already), but there's some new info.  A few malefic powers which....  I mean, I guess that possession power might be cool, if they update the discipline to be available to daemon princes as well.  On an sorcerer body, I'm not exactly chasing duals with enemy characters, and if I was I'm not sure how I'd successfully tag any given the MoP's lack of jump options.

 

The other power looks... ok.

 

EDIT:  All the powers were leaked above, and, honestly, just as before, I'm not seeing anything yet that would make me inclined to abandon the already fantastic dark hereticus lore.  IMO a plain old sorcerer is just better than a MoP, even before you get to the terminator and jump options that regular sorcerers still have.  A couple of those powers I might like on a daemon prince, but... yeah.

 

Worse, the one buff spell strongly indicates that possessed won't be seeing any changes to their basic rules, and that's just kind of tragic right there.

 

 

.....

 

 

Also some previewed command traits.  Re-rolling ones on psychic powers strikes me as pretty good if your warlord is a sorcerer/MoP, but I'm not sure it's good enough that I'd be taking sorcerers as my warlord rather than daemon princes or abaddon except in fairly small games.

 

Overall I'm still neither impressed nor especially disappointed by any of the new stuff seen.  I expect some of it will see play, and I certainly appreciate how good the models look, but nothing's standing me out as a major game changer yet.

[Trevak Dal]

 

Is it legal to give obliterators unit and put it into Death Guard detachement, through index options, then overwrite with new profile?

No

Yeah homie, if I could do that :cuss, I'd take Tau crisis profile from 8th back to 7th for even more op cheese and Zerkers back to 7th edition Legion lists.

 

Nobody will let me do that :cuss though, because Mook guys with 5+ s6+ attacks per turn coming twice "doesn't seem fair"