Shadowspear unit discussion

[Sonoftherubric21]

I just thought of something to add regarding Maelific powers.... The aura buffs for daemon legion units effect all lords on daemonic mounts. easy access 3++ to Lord on Juggernaught or slannesh mount when near a Master of Possession. 

Foor for thought when designing lists now and we want more "daemon" oriented units. 

[dice4thedicegod]

It’s a shame that the obliterators, which were already decent, are getting a new data sheet while the possessed aren’t.

 

I’m also not sure about obliterators that cost the same as a helbrute. Maybe it’s worth it...

[Tordeck]

I’m also not sure about obliterators that cost the same as a helbrute. Maybe it’s worth it...

A deep striking Hellbrute with and Assault 6 minimum Str 7 -1 gun that can Endless Cacophony? Yeah.

[Panzer]

Also Sv2+ (though only T5 so I guess that balances out ^^).

 

It's really just the little brother of a Helbrute. More mass shooting with potential high strength while the Helbrute has access to stuff like Lascannons, but less durable and worse melee than Helbrutes (Helbrutes would love a 5++ but T7 and more wounds protects them better against many scary guns, especially those pesky Autocannons).

[Excessus]

 

I’m also not sure about obliterators that cost the same as a helbrute. Maybe it’s worth it...

A deep striking Hellbrute with and Assault 6 minimum Str 7 -1 gun that can Endless Cacophony? Yeah.

 

 

You forget that Helbrutes can fire frenzy and have way longer range...

[Iron_Within]

Fire frenzy is limited to the closest target and cannot move.

Obliterators can VOTLW and endless cacophony in units of 3 which is stronger

Yes they have longer range.....

Thing is though hellbrute and obliterators don't compete for space. Havoc's, defilers and forge fiends do compete with obliterators

[Excessus]

While it is true about fire frenzy, wasting 3cp on a single oblit is a waste imho (since that is what we were talking about). Nothing competes with space in these new detachments. Helbrute fits in the elite detachment and oblits in the heavy detachment. Three oblits will be a lot more expensive than a helbrute.

[Sonoftherubric21]

While it is true about fire frenzy, wasting 3cp on a single oblit is a waste imho (since that is what we were talking about). Nothing competes with space in these new detachments. Helbrute fits in the elite detachment and oblits in the heavy detachment. Three oblits will be a lot more expensive than a helbrute.

 

You think so? 36 shots? wounding almost assuredly on 2's (assuming VOTLW) except against T8 targets. Will always have an AP, and if you can control for the Damage value could put out *serious* damage onto just about anything. 

 

Although the cost is big this could be very good on the table. 

[Hollenweger]

Has anyone worked out what base size the new Obliterators are on? It looks like it might be bigger than the 40mm the current models are supplied with.

[Sception]

looks like 50 to me, but that's just eyeball guesswork.

[Marqol]

They mentioned they are nearly as tall as a Hellbrute so I think 50mm is a good bet. I am wondering if my current terminator sized obliterators will need to become Terminator Special weapons. 

[Gederas]

50mm. They're Centurion-sized

[Iron_Within]

Just saw this rumor for the leaked Shadowpoint points costs:

 

CSM - 13

GP 70

MoP 90

Oblit 115

Venom 130

 

Autocannon 10

Plasmas Gun 11

Plasma Pistol 5

 

C in Phobos 110

Eliminator - 18

Infilt 22 Helix 32

Librarian in Phobos 100

Lt in Phobos 80

Suppressor 18

Accelerator Cannon 15

Bolt Sniper 3

[Prot]

I think the Havoc increases in value from the changes to Obliterators. I could very well be wrong, but it feels like that right now, and with impending changes to new Havocs. 

 

edit: OMG infiltrators at 22? Lol These can't be real points.

 

115 each oblit? gees.

[Mallios]

I think the Havoc increases in value from the changes to Obliterators. I could very well be wrong, but it feels like that right now, and with impending changes to new Havocs.

 

edit: OMG infiltrators at 22? Lol These can't be real points.

 

115 each oblit? gees.

Other than weapon options, what Havoc changes are you referring to?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

He's saying that Havocs will look like a better value in comparison to Oblits because Oblits are going up in points.

 

I doubt Havocs will change at all in terms of stats, rules, or points, though I'm interested to see if we're getting any new weapon options other than that roto cannon-looking thing.

[Excessus]

 

While it is true about fire frenzy, wasting 3cp on a single oblit is a waste imho (since that is what we were talking about). Nothing competes with space in these new detachments. Helbrute fits in the elite detachment and oblits in the heavy detachment. Three oblits will be a lot more expensive than a helbrute.

 

You think so? 36 shots? wounding almost assuredly on 2's (assuming VOTLW) except against T8 targets. Will always have an AP, and if you can control for the Damage value could put out *serious* damage onto just about anything. 

 

Although the cost is big this could be very good on the table. 

 

 

You should read what i write though...a SINGLE oblit, single! One, uno.

[Iron_Within]

Yes wasting 3CP on a single obliterator would be silly, That's why they're different roles. Hellbrute is that all rounder model that can be squeezed in for a hundred points. I don't think they're terribly good if you've just dropped one in, however in a mech heavy list, another armoured target can hit that saturation point.

 

A single obliterator vs a single Hellbrute, I'd choose a hellbrute. But 3 hellbrutes vs a squad of 3 obliterators, I'd choose the Obliterators.

 

The downside is now the obliterators are very powerful you're very reliant on that doom unit you're pumping 3 CP into and 2 to 4 psychic powers (Prescience, Improved Fleshmetal weapons, +1 Invulnerable save and Ecstatic Agonies). That's a lot of power into one unit and not a lot of redundancy. Ofc it's a frikking doom unit, especially if you manage to Death Hex your target (5 psychic powers). But that's a lot of wheels to spin and go wrong.

[Cheex]

Part of me expects that these points costs were made without the CA18 points drops in mind, so I wouldn't be surprised if some points adjustments were made after release. Previous boxed games also had some points discrepancies, so I'm guessing these had to go to print earlier than a normal publication.

 

That said, I still think Obliterators are worth it. Two Newblits have the same damage output as three Oldblits, and the unit is 35pts more expensive. The unit does have one less wound, but the higher toughness makes up for it. They have fewer attacks, but the improved Strength and AP makes up for it.

 

It's a nerf, no doubts there, but let's be honest: Oldbliterators were great for their cost.

 

Now, they have added flexibility: you can bring one for smaller games, or you can bring three to take full advantage of stratagems and auras.

 

As for Helbrutes, they are just excellent value at the moment. However, Newblits have a few advantages: Assault weapons, can teleport, 2+/5++, can be the target of abilities that buff DAEMONS, and can be taking in units of 3 to maximise buffs. And Helbrutes can't use VotLW or Endless Cacophony.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Good break down Cheex. 

I would imagine these points will be adjusted in the near-future given a couple things (oblits, phobos captain, venomcrawler) are *slightly* overcosted and some units....like Infiltraitors are *HORRENDOUSLY* overcosted. 

 

As for the moment? Oblits will feature in alot of my lists, they have real potential and I think venomcrawlers deserve some table time to work this out. They are almost identical in points to the Maulerfiend but more fragile...BUT they have an assault gun with 2d3 shots a turn. Easily turned into a las-cannon equivalent with greater possessed. 

[Wayniac]

So, in my opinion on our new stuff:

 

CSM - Stayed the same for some reason, hopefully, it will be changed in Vigilus 2.  Not much to say about them right now, as usual.

 

Greater Possessed - Look pretty good and have enough synergy with our daemon units along with a beatstick profile that I can see getting a lot of use out of them.

 

Master of Possession - After seeing his spell list seems pretty solid as all of the Malefic powers except for maybe Incursion and Possession seem to have solid use, and those two only are "bad" due to having to pay reinforcement points for summoning.  Possession is really the only "stinker" here as even Incursion could have some use if you planned to use summoning.  If you didn't have to pick powers beforehand and could just select any from the list in your Psychic phase I could see Possession being something you'd pick if you wanted the MoP to finish someone off, but I can't see any compelling reason to pick it over a better power.  Another trick I see using with him is to bring him up with a blob of cultists or something in support of a Maulerfiend or two (or Venomcrawler; see below) with the Sacrifice power so it can be healed.

 

Obliterators - Oh boy.  I mean, they got buffed, definitely.  But if the 115 point leak is correct then we're paying 35 points *more* for 2 than we used to pay for three.  I would have gotten 95 points per, even 100 as that would have made 2 almost the cost of 3 (okay 100 would have been 5 points more) but with the buffs, they have the same output.  But 115?  A Helbrute is only a little more than that, more durable and more reliable for a particular role as opposed to Obliterators being a generalist unit due to the random stats on the Fleshmetal weapons.  I still think they have solid use and a package with some Oblits and a MoP with Cursed Earth and Infernal Power or even Mutated Invigoration sound like it will be pretty nasty, but 115 is the upper boundaries of what they should cost IMHO.

 

Venomcrawler - I don't see it.  It looks like a bad version of a Maulerfiend or a Defiler for 130 points.  The bonus to summoning is going to be largely useless in Matched Play and its other stats are pretty lackluster compared to its rivals.  Sure it has the two guns, but still 4+ BS and even if you can buff those guns to be like a lascannon equivalent with Greater Possessed, with its low AP and damage you aren't going to be hunting tanks with it.  I have a friend who swears up and down it's better than a Maulerfiend because of the gun but I just don't see it.  Now if/when we get the variant seen in artwork with what looks like two Baleflamers, that one I think will have use (but who knows how much more expensive it will be) but this version just seems like it's in a weird spot where it's not really good at any job you want it to do.  I do think it might be the dark horse and may require more experimentation to see exactly where it stands, but on paper right now IMHO it's looking like trash.

 

EDIT: Here are some more thoughts on the Venomcrawler, after giving it some more thought it doesn't seem as bad as it might appear at first:

 

The biggest downer is its points put it comparable to the Defiler and Maulerfiend (I'm almost certain that GW didn't check what adjustments they were doing to similar units in Chapter Approved with this; it seems on par with the Myphitic Blighthauler which went down significantly in Chapter Approved 2018), but let's compare to the Maulerfiend which is IMHO it's closest rival:

 

* It has 2 fewer wounds (10 compared to 12)
* It has two Assault D3 guns with decent stats for light anti-tank work (the variable damage sucks, however. I'd have preferred a flat 2, but what can you do) which when compared to the Defiler is better as it makes it a mobile gun platform.
* Same Toughness/WS/BS/Movement, 3+ save, 5+ Invulnerable
* Slightly better regen (1 automatically, 1 if it killed anything)

 

We don't know it's attack characteristic but let's assume 4 attacks at full health as that seems to be the standard for Daemon engines.

 

That means it gets 4 attacks with its claws (at full health S8 AP -3 and 3 damage) plus 2 attacks from the Tendrils (S6 AP -2 and 2 Damage) or 6 attacks with the Tendrils. This makes it able to deal with heavily armored targets (claws) or elites (tendrils). If you have a Greater Possessed nearby it gets +1 strength to everything so S9 gun and claws and S7 lashers, however, this is likely not too relevant however as it won't make a huge difference except maybe for the claws if you're attacking something with high Toughness.

 

Let's also remember the Master of Possession has two very good spells: Cursed Earth (+1 invulnerable) and Infernal Power (re-roll hit and wound) in an aura around him. The re-rolls can help to offset the 4+ BS while Cursed Earth gives it a very respectable 3+/4++ with regen.

 

That's not too bad at all when you think about it. It has to be used in tandem with something else IMHO; something to screen it and provide support as it supports them. A 36" assault gun with decent anti-elite stats isn't anything to scoff at, especially if you get re-rolls to help offset the awful BS. Its melee is decent enough if you aren't trying to make it kill things by itself and can damage heavy targets with the claws or cut through elites (like those hated Primaris loyalist dogs) with the tendrils.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Bare in mind it would be 6 attacks total. 4 base + 2 for the tendrils. All other engines with substantial Melee capacity (that I am aware of) have 4 swings.  Mauler/defiler/heldrake. So I don't *think* the venomcrawler would be less. 

It feels like its an ever so slightly more fragile mauler fiend (down 2 wounds) but trades its 10 attacks for 6 attacks +2 assault guns firing 2d3 shots, str 8 base (becoming 9 if you take aura).

 

I agree with you about the model needing to come down, 120 or so would be about perfect. But as of the moment? Potential! 

[General Strike]

Yeah, it makes me re-think how I want to run Obliterators. They've become an anti-elite killer for me, and I won't be running 3 squads of 3 any time soon.

[Gothical]

At the moment I see the Venomcrawler as acting as more of a kind of skirmisher, whilst the Maulerfiend remains the heavy-hitter. You can throw it forwards early on to engage screens and take pot-shots at targets with the cannon, it is fairly durable with the innate ability to regenerate 2 wounds per turn, and if it does go down you want it in the enemy's face to try to benefit from its higher chance of exploding. 

Don't forget it is a vehicle and so benefits from Blasphemous Machines which gives it a huge threat-range with those guns.

 

You can hold it back to support Summoning, then launch it as a missile against an elite unit once your summoned unit(s) are in play. Its survivability is going to skyrocket if you summon something hard-hitting to support it (Bloodthirster via the MoP's psychic power summon?).

 

I am interested to see what any variant model does (believed to be coming due to the baleflamer rumour engine) as personally I see the Summoning ability as being irrelevant, though I am looking at this from the perspective of an Iron Warriors player that wouldn't dabble in such weakness to begin with 

[Sception]

I might also have some spares, depending on what's on offer.