Shadowspear unit discussion

[Tokugawa]

 

 

Just saw this rumor for the leaked Shadowpoint points costs:

 

CSM - 13

GP 70

MoP 90

Oblit 115

Venom 130

 

Autocannon 10

Plasmas Gun 11

Plasma Pistol 5

 

C in Phobos 110

Eliminator - 18

Infilt 22 Helix 32

Librarian in Phobos 100

Lt in Phobos 80

Suppressor 18

Accelerator Cannon 15

Bolt Sniper 3

 

 

Disappoint! More victims of rules!

[Wayniac]

Apparently, those leaked points are now confirmed via a video on Youtube reviewing the min-dex.

[Excessus]

Link?

[Wayniac]

[Sonoftherubric21]

Confirmed: 4 attacks in top bracket for venomcrawler. 

6 attacks including tendrils.  

[Wayniac]

Confirmed: 4 attacks in top bracket for venomcrawler. 

 

6 attacks including tendrils.  

 

Yep.  I still think it MAY have some merit but it's a hard sell compared to a Maulerfiend or a Defiler.  I think the biggest potential issue with it is that it's a generalist unit.  40k is a specialist game, yet GW continues to try and push generalist units that can't do any one thing well but can do a variety of things.

[Ahzek451]

Jes Goodwin said a cheeky remark about having new lesser possessed in the vox cast interview when he was talking about greater possessed. So theres that maybe.

[Sonoftherubric21]

 

Confirmed: 4 attacks in top bracket for venomcrawler. 

 

6 attacks including tendrils.  

 

Yep.  I still think it MAY have some merit but it's a hard sell compared to a Maulerfiend or a Defiler.  I think the biggest potential issue with it is that it's a generalist unit.  40k is a specialist game, yet GW continues to try and push generalist units that can't do any one thing well but can do a variety of things.

 

 

I could argue the mauler vs the venomcrawler both having merits back and forth (flip a coin, similar results) 

 

However: the defiler is a straight upgrade above both for more points. (12ish so or more then either of them) 

 

If they want to do generalist units they need that price point, this thing should be 115-120 in the dread price range and it would be spot on perfect for what it brings. 

[Prot]

It's a tough call on the Venom Crawler. Like all of the Chaos units in the box, I love the sculpt. But I agree it's just another generalist unit that really doesn't define itself in the Chaos line. 

 

With my Thousand Sons I started playing dual Defilers (it was dual Maulerfiends) once the CA2018 Point Drops came into effect. 

 

Eventually what I found was exactly what you're saying.... they felt too generalist, and not particularly good at any one thing. The points and wound count made them tempting. I probably played them for about 6 games as a pair, and then I decided I wasn't getting results out of them, so I went down to one, and got really nothing out of it.

 

I ended up pulling Defilers from my list entirely. I do see the Venom being a very similar unit. In part the issue is the Daemon rule of  hitting on 4's no matter your specialty. I do think if the Venom has or gets some kind of hellish flamer it would be a really good move, but with the way you can alter strength with these units, it's hard to say.

[Mekhitar]

Defilers wth the flail start at flat 7 attacks, and wth better strength. If venoms get the CA 20-pt drop for all daemon engines they definitely have a role; right now they are a tad too pricy.

[Sception]

For me, the value will depend on alternate weapon options.  I'm just not a fan of rolling for number of shots, then having to roll to hit.  There are enough failure points in the regular attack sequence between to-hit, to-wound, and saves, adding an extra failure state of just not rolling enough attacks to be threatening first is too much.  I can deal with varying strength, AP, & damage, oblits were and are usable, but possessed, battle cannons, & the new venomcrawler guns I just can't get behind.  Too many ways for my dice to let me down in clutch situations.  Heck, the option to take no guns, and only pay points for its melee output, might be enough to convince me.

 

We'll see what its options look like when and if a full kit is released.

[Furnace Lord]

How do people feel about the Warlord traits available to the Master of Posession vs. the standard Codex ones?

[Wayniac]

How do people feel about the Warlord traits available to the Master of Posession vs. the standard Codex ones?

I think the one that can give you a Command Point when you manifest a power could be useful, potentially the one that gives an additional psychic power.  But honestly, none of them seem that great because they require a PSYKER (which the Daemon Prince is not) and really how often are you taking a PSYKER as your Warlord?  I suppose if you fielded like a Terminator Sorcerer Lord or something they may have some use.

[Cheex]

 

How do people feel about the Warlord traits available to the Master of Posession vs. the standard Codex ones?

I think the one that can give you a Command Point when you manifest a power could be useful, potentially the one that gives an additional psychic power.  But honestly, none of them seem that great because they require a PSYKER (which the Daemon Prince is not) and really how often are you taking a PSYKER as your Warlord?  I suppose if you fielded like a Terminator Sorcerer Lord or something they may have some use.

 

 

Daemon Princes are psykers unless they have the Mark of Khorne...

[Bat33.1]

I hope there is a points drop via FAQ a couple of weeks after this releases or a lot of these pretty chaos models will see very little table time. It's great that Chaos is getting some love from GW, quite a lot of love with the new khorne models are on the way too, but boy do GW struggle to write strong balanced rules for anything that isn't a Xenos space Elf.

 

The box will sell but I've spoken with a few people that are holding back until they see what the full CSM release looks like. I don't think those ugly Suppressors are doing the box any favours at all 

[Wayniac]

 

 

How do people feel about the Warlord traits available to the Master of Posession vs. the standard Codex ones?

I think the one that can give you a Command Point when you manifest a power could be useful, potentially the one that gives an additional psychic power.  But honestly, none of them seem that great because they require a PSYKER (which the Daemon Prince is not) and really how often are you taking a PSYKER as your Warlord?  I suppose if you fielded like a Terminator Sorcerer Lord or something they may have some use.

 

 

Daemon Princes are psykers unless they have the Mark of Khorne...

 

 

Ah okay, I missed that part and just looked at his normal keywords, not the part that said he gets PSYKER unless he's Khorne.

 

I think my point still stands though as the +1 Strength trait might be beneficial, but since he doesn't have a force weapon he doesn't get any additional benefit.

[Excessus]

Just have your sorcerer warlord hide out somewhere while your prince runs around being a beatstick...

[Mekhitar]

I like the CP one. CSM currently don’t have any ways of getting these back (though thousand sons do), and CP are golden for an army relying on VotLW every phase you can get it.

 

It vies with Flames of Spite, which I otherwise find pretty nice. Chances are if I go the MoP warlord route, I will be taking him to replace my usual jump lord anyway.

[Prot]

I do find Cultists make dual Battalions very possible. I don’t know if it’s super competitive to do so but it does alleviate the CP issue.

[Panzer]

I actually think Warp Lord is better than Reader of Fate. Over the course of the game it should save you more CP from not having to use the re-roll Stratagem than you'd generate CP by rolling 6s after successful casts.

Additionally it makes it way more likely to get powers off or simply making it harder to deny for the enemy while also protecting you from perils caused by 1s more than just once in a game.

[Wayniac]

Friendly tip for anyone wanting to use Battlescribe to play around with the new stuff:

 

Chaos Sorcerer on foot is 98 points (Master of Possession; original point leaks stated 90 but did not include his weapon)

10 Havocs w/4 Lascannon are 230 points (2x new Obliterators)

5 Havocs w/1 Missile Launcher and 3x Autocannon is 115 points (1 new Obliterator)

Base squad of Fallen is 70 points (Greater Possessed)

Base Chaos Predator is 130 points (Venomcrawler)

[Guzzlrr]

Friendly tip for anyone wanting to use Battlescribe to play around with the new stuff:

 

Chaos Sorcerer on foot is 98 points (Master of Possession; original point leaks stated 90 but did not include his weapon)

10 Havocs w/4 Lascannon are 230 points (2x new Obliterators)

5 Havocs w/1 Missile Launcher and 3x Autocannon is 115 points (1 new Obliterator)

Base squad of Fallen is 70 points (Greater Possessed)

Base Chaos Predator is 130 points (Venomcrawler)

Yeah I was looking at this the other day and thinking why would I use a venomcrawler when I could get a predator at the same price. I'm at a loss on the topic. It's a tad expensive even the hellbrute might be better at those points for what it does. Imo demon engines are too expensive for the 4s to hit nevermind -1 when they move I dunno. Not worth it in my past experience

[Wayniac]

 

Friendly tip for anyone wanting to use Battlescribe to play around with the new stuff:

 

Chaos Sorcerer on foot is 98 points (Master of Possession; original point leaks stated 90 but did not include his weapon)

10 Havocs w/4 Lascannon are 230 points (2x new Obliterators)

5 Havocs w/1 Missile Launcher and 3x Autocannon is 115 points (1 new Obliterator)

Base squad of Fallen is 70 points (Greater Possessed)

Base Chaos Predator is 130 points (Venomcrawler)

Yeah I was looking at this the other day and thinking why would I use a venomcrawler when I could get a predator at the same price. I'm at a loss on the topic. It's a tad expensive even the hellbrute might be better at those points for what it does. Imo demon engines are too expensive for the 4s to hit nevermind -1 when they move I dunno. Not worth it in my past experience

 

 

Yeah... that's my concern with the Venomcrawler too.  Anything it does, something else does better, and while I am usually fond of units that can perform multiple roles the sad reality is generalist units don't fit the current way 40k is played.  Although in the Venomcrawler's defense its guns are Assault, not Heavy, so it can move and fire with no penalty.  It's just that the guns are a bit lackluster and it seems like you would want to use it in melee, but at that point, a Maulerfiend or Defiler is going to do better in melee than the Venomcrawler anyway, and you already rarely see those in play as it is.

 

Something a friend and I have been discussing is a package consisting of 2x Forgefiends (2x Hades Autocannon and 1 Ectoplasma Cannon) and a Master of Possession in the backfield.  That's a nice bunch of shots, they don't have to move as the range covers most of the board, and having a MoP with Infernal Power and Cursed Earth provides them a 4++ save with re-rolling hits and wounds to help with offsetting the 4+ BS.

 

I still think the Venomcrawler requires some testing but it just doesn't seem like it fills a needed role; it does both shooting and melee but does both mediocre, and there are better units for dedicated shooting and dedicated melee.  I have a friend who swears up and down the Venomcrawler is better than a Maulerfiend because it has two guns.

[Panzer]

I'd actually take a Venomcrawler over a base Predator to be honest.

[Wayniac]

I'd actually take a Venomcrawler over a base Predator to be honest.

Versus a Predator maybe.  But the point remains a Venomcrawler has 2 lackluster guns and less melee output than a similarly-priced Maulerfiend (w/Lasher Tendrils ofc).  So the Venomcrawler tries to be a generalist but doesn't have as good weapons as Defiler or a Forgefiend (which granted will be about 30 points more), and not as good melee output as a Defiler or a Maulerfiend.

 

So IMHO it doesn't quite fit a role as it does two things decently instead of one thing really well.  That said though I'm getting 2 with the two halves of Shadowspear I'm getting this weekend, so I'm going to be trying it out.  It could be better at smaller points where you don't have the points to specialize in shooting and melee, so having something that can fill both roles could be beneficial.