Shadowspear unit discussion

[AceofCase]

Depending on what his melee profile looks like, the Lord Discordant could have a role swatting things like Dreadnoughts and other walkers. Use his debuff and then (Assuming the 99% chance he can take a Mark) put Miasma of Pestilence on him so he's getting hit back at a -2 to hit. Excellent model though, definitely picking one up no matter what. 

[Guzzlrr]

 

Friendly tip for anyone wanting to use Battlescribe to play around with the new stuff:

 

Chaos Sorcerer on foot is 98 points (Master of Possession; original point leaks stated 90 but did not include his weapon)

10 Havocs w/4 Lascannon are 230 points (2x new Obliterators)

5 Havocs w/1 Missile Launcher and 3x Autocannon is 115 points (1 new Obliterator)

Base squad of Fallen is 70 points (Greater Possessed)

Base Chaos Predator is 130 points (Venomcrawler)

Yeah I was looking at this the other day and thinking why would I use a venomcrawler when I could get a predator at the same price. I'm at a loss on the topic. It's a tad expensive even the hellbrute might be better at those points for what it does. Imo demon engines are too expensive for the 4s to hit nevermind -1 when they move I dunno. Not worth it in my past experience

 

 

 

yeah Suddenly things make sense Demon engines might be a great choice now LOL

[Cheex]

Another question is...will he have the daemon engine keyword himself since he's riding one?

 

In the WHC article it's stated that:

 

 

If you’re itching to start your horde of Daemon Engines early, well, you’re in luck! The Lord Discordant synergises amazingly with the Chaos force found in Shadowspear

 

...but there is only one daemon engine in that box, and if he synergises with the other stuff...how does he do that?

 

I wouldn't read too far into marketing hype like this.

 

Then again, he may have other rules that synergise well with non-daemon engines...

 

I suspect he will have the DAEMON ENGINE keyword, though. The mount is specifically mentioned as a daemon engine (the Helstalker), and other mounted units tend to confer keywords onto the unit (e.g. Lord on Juggernaut, Discs of Tzeentch, etc).

 

What I want to know is whether we will be able to take Helstalkers by themselves without a rider. I think it would be cool to see a swarm of these guys.

[adreal]

He might also have the <daemon> keyword, so ability to synergize with greater possessed and master of possession

[Panzer]

Well depending on how much he costs a list of 2 Heldrakes, 2 Maulerfiends, 2 Venomcrawler and 2 Defiler together with him would bring me to about 1.5k points .... very tempting! :teehee:

[Danny Cyanide]

Get 2 Decimators in there too!

[Iron_Within]

I think the key for him succeeding or not is if he has the CHARACTER keyword (which he will) and if he has less than 10 wounds. 

If he can be targeted separately then he's trash because he'll fall into the Magnus category where he's too big to hide and too useful for your opponent to leave alive. 

 

I'm holding my excitement till I see whether or not he can be targetted. If he cannot. My 2 Maulerfiends, Decimator and Defiler are all happy and will be seeing play. 

 

I might finally be able to run the Mechanised Horde list I want to run. 3 Hellbrutes, 1 Contemptor, 1 Decimator, 1 Defiler, 2 Maulerfiends + support. A MoP and a Lord Discordant would work really nicely. Though having the MoP keep up would be a problem.

[Guzzlrr]

I think the key for him succeeding or not is if he has the CHARACTER keyword (which he will) and if he has less than 10 wounds.

If he can be targeted separately then he's trash because he'll fall into the Magnus category where he's too big to hide and too useful for your opponent to leave alive.

 

I'm holding my excitement till I see whether or not he can be targetted. If he cannot. My 2 Maulerfiends, Decimator and Defiler are all happy and will be seeing play.

 

I might finally be able to run the Mechanised Horde list I want to run. 3 Hellbrutes, 1 Contemptor, 1 Decimator, 1 Defiler, 2 Maulerfiends + support. A MoP and a Lord Discordant would work really nicely. Though having the MoP keep up would be a problem.

Yeah I mirror this. Hopefully he's just a large model and has 8/9 wounds that would make this dude an auto include for me. If not my opponents are gonna start stocking llmore long range dakka

[Panzer]

I think the key for him succeeding or not is if he has the CHARACTER keyword (which he will) and if he has less than 10 wounds. 

If he can be targeted separately then he's trash because he'll fall into the Magnus category where he's too big to hide and too useful for your opponent to leave alive. 

 

At least for competetive games, yeah. In casual and semi-competetive games he'll be fine as there's usually much less potent anti-tank in those lists and with a 4++ or even 3++ and the daemon engine healing rule he'll be much harder to take out than most tanks.

[Guzzlrr]

 

 

I think the key for him succeeding or not is if he has the CHARACTER keyword (which he will) and if he has less than 10 wounds.

If he can be targeted separately then he's trash because he'll fall into the Magnus category where he's too big to hide and too useful for your opponent to leave alive.

At least for competetive games, yeah. In casual and semi-competetive games he'll be fine as there's usually much less potent anti-tank in those lists and with a 4++ or even 3++ and the daemon engine healing rule he'll be much harder to take out than most tanks.

My friendly games end up ultra competitive keeps our meta fresh but it sucks when you just wanna use a cool that kinda sucks. I remember when defilers where good turn one pop had to think of alternative options cause it was literally pointess in my lists. Itl be the same with this dude if he has more 10 wounds he'll be too useful with that sort of rule of he's point efficient

[Wayniac]

 

 

I don't really see why people see the venomcrawler guns as lackluster. 2D3 S8 assault shots that can be buffed in a multiple of ways isn't that bad. the MoP and the new warpsmith guy walking around in a bunch will make a few venomcrawlers nasty.

Mostly it's because anything you would use to buff the Venomcrawler can buff Maulerfiend/Forgefiend/Defiler which do a more specialized job and also aren't seen competitively.

 

However, the Lord Discordant seems to change a lot of that...

 

 

They're used for different things though. The venomcrawler will blast things without negative modifiers as it walks up the board into melee, it can do both. The other ones are kinda crap in the areas they aren't specialized for. And definitely now with the discordant. With a baleflamer and debuffing ability he'll want to move up the board as well.

 

 

This is true but before the Discordant, the issue was that the Venomcrawler seemed like a generalist unit: It has some shooting and some melee, but less impressive shooting than a Forgefiend or even a Defiler and less melee prowess than a Maulerfiend or a Defiler.  40k is a game that wants specialized units that can do one thing really well as opposed to two things decently, so the Venomcrawler seemed to fit this weird place as a unit that can shoot and fight decently, but not great.

 

However as someone who thinks it looks cool, is getting two via two halves of Shadowspear and wanted to have it work, the addition of the Discordant definitely turns it up a few notches and makes it a way more appealing choice especially with the Baleflamer Discordant as you said.  That's a nasty little package moving up the field providing supporting fire to units and then able to clean up in melee.

 

The only hope now is that the Discordant has less than 10 wounds.

[OnboardG1]

I suspect he’ll be similar to Bjorn and be a character with eight wounds.

[Panzer]

 

 

I think the key for him succeeding or not is if he has the CHARACTER keyword (which he will) and if he has less than 10 wounds.

If he can be targeted separately then he's trash because he'll fall into the Magnus category where he's too big to hide and too useful for your opponent to leave alive.

At least for competetive games, yeah. In casual and semi-competetive games he'll be fine as there's usually much less potent anti-tank in those lists and with a 4++ or even 3++ and the daemon engine healing rule he'll be much harder to take out than most tanks.

My friendly games end up ultra competitive keeps our meta fresh but it sucks when you just wanna use a cool that kinda sucks. I remember when defilers where good turn one pop had to think of alternative options cause it was literally pointess in my lists. Itl be the same with this dude if he has more 10 wounds he'll be too useful with that sort of rule of he's point efficient

 

 

I definitely wouldn't call that friendly games. If your local meta is very competetive that's one thing but that's not what's considered friendly or casual games usually. :P

[balordazul]

This may have already been answered but do the new oblits officially replace the codex version or is Codex Daemonkin separate from the CSM codex?  Also, I do feel the new oblits are a little high on the cost vs the old ones with their comparable abilities.  

[Kraken]

This may have already been answered but do the new oblits officially replace the codex version or is Codex Daemonkin separate from the CSM codex?  Also, I do feel the new oblits are a little high on the cost vs the old ones with their comparable abilities.  

Yes, there is a blurb in the Shadowspear minidex explaining the new Obliterator datasheet replace the old one (but the CSM squad doesn't).

[balordazul]

Thanks for the reply and a friend pointed out to me the goofy point scaling is likely due to the new melee weapon and he makes sense on that.  

[Excessus]

Thanks for the reply and a friend pointed out to me the goofy point scaling is likely due to the new melee weapon and he makes sense on that.  

 

Melee weapon, extra T and W, 50% more shots...

[balordazul]

 

Thanks for the reply and a friend pointed out to me the goofy point scaling is likely due to the new melee weapon and he makes sense on that.  

 

Melee weapon, extra T and W, 50% more shots...

 

 

The new one is a 77% up charge in cost but the T,W and 50% in shots does not add up to that and it is likely GW purposely over costed this unit and then going to drop the points again during a CA.  GW started this pattern with the indexes and even in the codexes playing it safe on pointing units generally higher they should be.  Sure there are exceptions to the rules and I'm talking about GW rules only and not commenting on the FW team.  The melee weapon is the only wild card here vs the old data sheet, most likely taking it from a 95 to 105 point model to a 115 point one.  

 

It will be interesting to see if the Hades AC Havocs will give the new oblits a challenge as a good range support unit option.  So long as the points don't change a 5 man Hades Havoc unit should be coming in around 145 points.

[1000 Sons]

I got 3 blood slaughterers, 2 maulerfiend, decimator, and a kytan that are very excited to get a couple of these guys. Add in a hq detachment of Ahriman, typhus, Khârn, led by abaddon. So many fun lists to try with this new guy. I am also excited to bring out some warp talons to play with.

[Excessus]

 

 

Thanks for the reply and a friend pointed out to me the goofy point scaling is likely due to the new melee weapon and he makes sense on that.  

 

Melee weapon, extra T and W, 50% more shots...

 

 

The new one is a 77% up charge in cost but the T,W and 50% in shots does not add up to that and it is likely GW purposely over costed this unit and then going to drop the points again during a CA.  GW started this pattern with the indexes and even in the codexes playing it safe on pointing units generally higher they should be.  Sure there are exceptions to the rules and I'm talking about GW rules only and not commenting on the FW team.  The melee weapon is the only wild card here vs the old data sheet, most likely taking it from a 95 to 105 point model to a 115 point one.  

 

It will be interesting to see if the Hades AC Havocs will give the new oblits a challenge as a good range support unit option.  So long as the points don't change a 5 man Hades Havoc unit should be coming in around 145 points.

 

 

It does though. T4->5 is a threshold where many things on the battlefield decrease their chance to wound them, and the additional wound removes the instant death risk of all those damage D3 or 3 weapons, while decreasing the effectiveness of lascannons and such on them. Heck, lascannons wound an oblit on the same 3+ as it would a predator now.

 

 

There is nothing saying they are actual hades autocannons though. The WHC post says the warpsmiths have cooked up some new guns, we don't know the rules or points but I doubt they'll fill the niche of oblits.

[balordazul]

I'm well aware how the math works in their current system but this will be a matter of a difference of opinions.

 

Until GW lists what those new havocs are holding the most likely thing is a hades auto cannon in relation to anything we have had in the past.  But we never know what GW will do as they are not transparent on their plans.  So it could be something else but there is a high chance it is just them reusing a weapon that only has two options of deployment currently.  

[Excessus]

Always felt wierd to have such a huge size difference between the heldrake one and the forgefiend one...

[Gederas]

Thanks for the reply and a friend pointed out to me the goofy point scaling is likely due to the new melee weapon and he makes sense on that.  

Melee weapon, extra T and W, 50% more shots...

The new one is a 77% up charge in cost but the T,W and 50% in shots does not add up to that and it is likely GW purposely over costed this unit and then going to drop the points again during a CA.  GW started this pattern with the indexes and even in the codexes playing it safe on pointing units generally higher they should be.  Sure there are exceptions to the rules and I'm talking about GW rules only and not commenting on the FW team.  The melee weapon is the only wild card here vs the old data sheet, most likely taking it from a 95 to 105 point model to a 115 point one. 

Having looked at my Shadowspear Daemonkin codex, yeah. I really think they're going to HAVE to drop the points.

 

One more wound, a melee weapon they LOST between7th to 8th, and 2 more shots per model. Equals a 50 point jump? What :lol:

 

Worse part, imo, is that the new Obliterators are more expensive than a Helbrute now (cheapest Helbrute is dual fists, which is 100 points).

 

[balordazul]

Agreed but also take a lot at assault cannons that have been around for a long time the ones one the vehicles are also comically large compared to the terminator versions.  Maybe they have this fall under the heroic scale or the earlier game design ideas of abstraction.  I still can't see 10 marines fitting into one of my rhinos without it being a clown car.  

 

@Gederas

 

I liked helbrutes this addition and knew all the dreadnought classes were over costed for game and have been super happy with the points fix.  I was running pre and post point change a Helbrute with reaper and ML trying to keep at range to avoid death by light arms.  

 

Heck the more I look at the Venomcrawler the more I like it at 130 it is not amazing but it has assault weapons vs the rest of the daemon-engines.  Combined with being a assault backup unit it has a good chance of doing ok.  It is not going to a game breaker or do better than a focused unit but I do see some good opportunities with it.

[Excessus]

Whoa, my local store had lots of people show interest before so he ordered 28 boxes, they sold out in an hour...