Guilliman's Return and the Codex Astartes

[Brother Casman]

TL;DR version: I discuss some possible ideas on how the modern Codex Astartes came to be, and explore a bit of Guilliman's reaction to it when he returns.

 

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Okay, to preface this: I'm not a peer of the Imperium, and I'm well aware that I really only vaguely understand strategy and tactics (and how they're different) and I can say "Logistics wins wars" with the best of them (and that's about all I can do in that particular domain), but I wanted to talk a bit about the Codex Astartes.

 

So, Guilliman's magnum opus was expressly written to break up the Space Marine Legions, and I dare say, to encourage the Space Marine Chapters to scatter across the Imperium. Why? To ensure that building up the might of a Legion under one person was extremely hard. Further, the evidence suggests that, occasional incursions aside, the Imperium was largely at peace following the Scouring - presumably Guilliman foresaw that. Rather than cast the Space Marines aside as no longer needed, Guilliman set them up as "Guard Precincts" - the Space Marines could be the first-to-the-fight, should any hotspots erupt. The Space Marines thus have a purpose in helping to hold the Imperium together, and it works for a couple millenia.

 

Which brings us to the War of the Beast. To my mind, this represents an early failure of the Codex Astartes - not through any fault of its own, but because the War was an outside context problem, something that Guilliman couldn't foresee (I mean, an emergent empire of Orks? Come on, Orks can't organize like that). Luckily the Imperium managed to pull themselves together and not fall apart in the War, but I'm sure the various commanders were concerned about how the Codex applies to future events, even though it wasn't really written for that purpose. I'd guess that the Codex-as-written worked extremely well in the Inter-War Periods, but any new conflicts would show potential flaws in always following one way of thinking. So this is probably the period when Space Marine Commanders begin adding to the Codex Astartes; not altering it per se, but trying to keep it up-to-date as best they can. They'd be trying to fling a light to the future by saying "here's how we dealt with such-and-such problem". If we assume that this organic process (or something similar) happened, then we can jump to the Dark Millenium and see what Guilliman's work has become.

 

The Dark Millenium is the culmination of multiple wars, Black Crusades, and so on. As the Space Marines struggled to do their part in keeping the Imperium together, they likely would have multiple versions of the Codex floating around, all expanded into shelves of encyclopedias. No doubt that some versions of the Codex would contradict other versions; it'd be a mess, the kind of mess you get when centuries of ideas accrete around a core. I'd bet that every so often, a particularly ambitious commander would get the bright idea of trying to synthesize a "master Codex" out of the various versions, but all he'd really do is add another version to the pile. One thing to keep in mind, is that the core work is intended for the post-Great Crusade era, and the people adding to it haven't experienced that time period. The Great Crusade would be outside their context, other than as stories and legends.

 

And then, Guilliman comes back. I've no doubt that Space Marines mentioned using his Codex Astartes as a guide/holy tome/big book of war, and Guilliman would have probably been both horrified and fascinated to see what it had become. I would think that he'd spend evenings reading through the various amendments and suggestions, comparing editions, and just taking it all in. I'd also wager that he sees the parallels between the Dark Millenium and the Great Crusade era - he'd be able to fill in the foundation that the Codex Astartes needs, and he could do it in the same manner as the previous commanders: "this is what we did during the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy". He would have the knowledge and experience to be able to synthesize a new Codex Astartes. Maybe it wouldn't be one that restored the Legions of old, but it could explain legion strategies and tactics that Space Marine Chapters could adopt. At the very least, Guilliman would be able to give the Codex Astartes another point of context.

 

With that, the Codex would come full-circle(ish) - it'd cover the important parts of logistics, strategy, tactics, ... warfare, really, for the vast majority of the conflicts the Space Marines have fought. It would still be several shelves of encyclopedias, but it would provide useful doctrines, nonetheless. And, with the implicit approval of Guilliman, commanders would still add to it as they saw fit, there would just be a central authority that can double-check the additions. It would be quite the book.

 

Thoughts?

[Marshal Rohr]

The Codex's main weakness was always the size and organization of the Chapters and the restrictions on the fleet. If those two things are changed, then chapters can become functional as expeditionary forces again and make a real difference, instead of having to rarely commit in force.

[Ishagu]

That's all pretty spot on. The codex was too regimented and restrictive but that is in part due to the dogmatic attitude that developed in the Imperium over time.

 

It has short comings, and the lack of any centralised leadership withing the Imperium means that even minor reforms are impossible.

 

It has already been stated that Guilliman is working on a new tome; "The Codex Imperialis." We don't know what this entails yet but we do have some hints.

 

For one, Guilliman does not like the divides that have been created between chapters. Mistrust, incompatible methods or war and negative attitudes between chapters was neither intended nor wanted. Isolationist chapters that have strayed too far from the norm was not intended either.

 

During the Indomnitus Crusade it becomes apparent that he's trying to encourage cross Chapter synergy by having Marines with the geneseed of the SW, BA, DA etc working closely together.

 

I believe he's intending to standardise Marines more through units created for a specific purpose, and to allow large collections of Chapters to function as a singular, Legion-like force during times of need. How the main commander is elected could be similar to the way Chapters do it currently when more than one is involved in a war zone.

Also it has become apparent that Primaris Marines use modular armour and can be equipped for different scenarios. Theoretically it's possible to deploy an entire Chapter's worth of Marines in Gravis Armour and flamethrowers to purge a city of heretics, for example, whilst another Chapter is deployed entirely in Tacticus armour to engage an enemy in a longer ranged firefight in the same conflict.

 

The unnumbered sons were a massive 500k - 1 mil or so strong Legion style force comprised of multiple gene lines that he used to smash his way from system to system perging Xenos, Traitors and the forces of Chaos.

He's also reforming the 500 worlds of Ultramar to their pre-Heresy state.

 

I think it's clear that the Legion style of warfare has benefits during periods of all-out war and that the small, independent codex chapters are more useful as small scale response forces during times of greater peace. As we all know however, its the 42nd* millennium, and there is only war.

[Marshal Rohr]

Cite your sources about the Primaris numbers.

[Brother Casman]

Aye, it's obvious that there are times when the Space Marines need to muster in greater forces than a single Chapter, and lots of Chapters have done exactly that in war zones: alliances coming together to save a world, for example. With Guilliman back, he can say "yes, this is an approved way to wage war; just remember that it can only be temporary. Further, here are some things to consider..." and so on.

 

Of course, your typical Space Marine Commander has forgotten more about war than I'll ever know, and he'd likely only use the Codex as a "study guide", so to speak. But I'd guess that our force commander would be relieved to know that commanding a multi-Chapter force is the right thing to do in certain times.

[Ishagu]

Conjecture through the various books. Numbers are never stated but the fact that the Crusade re-enforces every single Chapter in the galaxy and even throws out 20 additional chapters per sub sector for added defences indicates the numbers are massive.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Conjecture through the various books. Numbers are never stated but the fact that the Crusade re-enforces every single Chapter in the galaxy and even throws out 20 additional chapters per sub sector for added defences indicates the numbers are massive.

 

No doubt, based on the lit, Guilliman had massive numbers of Primaris in his Unnumbered Sons army. Still, I was going to challenge you on his ability to re-enforce "every single Chapter in the galaxy". Fortunately, I crunched the numbers before opening my big text mouth...… he could do it

 

I love math It never lies to me.

[Robbienw]

Those numbers don’t match up with anything given in any current dark imperium fluff.

 

He definitely didn’t reinforce every chapter in the galaxy.

 

A small percentage have yet to receive Primaris technology and marines according to cawl in dark imperium. Some have only received a small amount like the Novamarines in DI2. Other didn’t receive any, just the technology to make them themselves, like the Emperors Spears. Given the numbers mentioned in dark imperium at the end of the Indomitus crusade, I seriously doubt they ever numbered over 200k.

 

There could be more than that now depending on the ratios that chapters are making, but it’s impossible to say for sure.

[Marshal Rohr]

There were almost two million marines in service at the height of the Great Crusade. If Cawl had a million on ice and there were about a million already around as oldmarines that would mean the rift doesn't even matter

 

 

 

As far as Casman's point, in AoS Stormhosts are much smaller than SM chapters. I wonder if 'new' Primaris chapters aren't going to become much smaller too.

[Ishagu]

10,000 years of building up their numbers? Pretty easy to prepare 1 million.

 

And we know for a fact that every chapter has been reinforced with Primaris, and 94% of those chapters were happy with them. That's not counting the vast numbers of new chapters created and those entirely rebuilt.

[Brother Casman]

Y'know, I had kind of thought that we'd discuss the Nova Codex Astartes (let's call it) in this thread, not just the numbers of Space Marines generated by Cawl...

 

Edited to add: To be clear, I'm not upset or anything, as the numbers of a Chapter would be something that's laid down in the Codex, I just don't want it to dominate the conversation.

[CCE1981]

To the OP

Tactics - is local - how are we going to take that bunker on the hill and how are we going to hold it.

 

Strategy - wide ranging - how are we going to take this 10 miles of defensive line. - can go up on scale for Grand Strategy - if we take this region we cut off our opponents access to food and oil.

[Kinstryfe]

As I see it, there was a third issue with the Codex beyond chapter size and fleet restrictions, which was the near religious position that it took on to many chapters. Guilliman's intent, as we see in the hinted flexibility in the new Primaris companies and chapters, was for it to be a treatise of recommendations for best practices and actions. Instead it's been taken by many chapters to be a directive on how any given situation must be approached. It seems hinted at that this effectively limited the options available for a chapter in any given scenario and very likely stunted the tactical growth to occur in the next ten millennia. It's also led to most chapters becoming a living stereotype, known for only one type of combat and organization, further stagnating the tactical flexibility of many chapters.

 

I actually see some of the Primaris roles as indicative of this change. Guilliman's initial position seemed to be that good practices were just good practices. It didn't matter if it was Horus' speartip, Kurze's terror tactics, or Perturabo's siegecraft, just because it was perfected by a traitor didn't affect the quality of the idea, and Guilliman was of the mind that those were tactics worth knowing. Due however to modern chapters seeming to venerate their Primarchs to the degree they to, most chapters seem to practice variations of the same nine styles of warfare instead of showcasing a competency in all types of warfare. By the intent of the Codex there is no reason that the White Scars should not be able to expertly withstand a siege, why the Imperial Fists wouldn't be able to run a counterinsurgent terror campaign, or why the Salamanders shouldn't exceed at long distance bombardment, save the fact that those chapters seem to excessively rely on the methods of war which their Primarchs preferred. Reivers seem to utilize some of Kurze's specialties. Inceptors almost seem to echo rapid drop tactics used by Horus. Eliminators probably follow some of the same tactical training Alpharius taught. Perhaps Primaris roles are a way for Guilliman to say "you all refused to learn this stuff, so now we're going to make you".

 

One of the other purposes of the Codex seems to have been unsuccessful as well, which was preventing the fall of more Astartes to Chaos. While it's true that there hasn't really been a Legion sized fall at a single time (the Badab War maybe being the closest instance) there have still been a steady stream of traitors over the millennia. I'd imagine Guilliman may be trying to figure out which is worse: the possibility of a Legion going rogue, or chapters being insular enough that there's no oversight to stop a large group going rogue. Part of the problem, having a single Warmaster overseeing the entire Imperial military, is less of an issue since it's been stated that it's a position rarely utilized except in the largest conflicts. With that fix in play, one of the main reasons for having smaller autonomous chapters may have largely gone away, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the size limits either lifted or expanded upwards.

[Robbienw]

10,000 years of building up their numbers? Pretty easy to prepare 1 million.

 

And we know for a fact that every chapter has been reinforced with Primaris, and 94% of those chapters were happy with them. That's not counting the vast numbers of new chapters created and those entirely rebuilt.

Well, you don’t know how easy it was for him to make them, how having to keep it secret affected what he could do and the resources he had, if he paused the project whilst doing other things etc. There are too many nebulous variables to say it was easy to make that many.

 

We also know that not every chapter was reinforced, some may have just received the technology, particularly if they were near full strength. Or there intended reinforcements were lost to the great rift, like the ones that were meant to go to the emperors spears.

 

Added to that you have the comment from captain numitor in of honour and iron that the imperium would still be lacking in forces to prosecute the crusade even if there were a million Primaris, which very strongly implies there was not a million (or close to a million) of them. You also have the line in Dark Imperium which states that cawl made ‘many tens of thousands’ of Primaris marines, which you could take to mean meant under 100k. Certainly no where near a million.

 

I think your supposed numbers may be a bit optimistic, to put it nicely :)

[SpecialIssue]

I'm gonna be contrarian and say I dislike how GW seems to be backtracking from the Codex Astartes to try and recapture the glamour of the Legions. The romanticism surrounding the Legions in the fanbase seems to mirror the in-universe opposition to re-organizing into Chapters at the end of the Scouring. That is, putting feelings and glory over the pragmatic reality of a new age - which is why Guilliman was the one to force it, and the least-likely to backtrack on it if the reasons he implemented it have become worse, and that despite the array of enemies it faces and the intransigence of mere mortals, the Imperium is still the dominant power after 10 millennia(!) with this system.
 

 

 

The fad is to hate Gulliman for destroying the grandeur of the Legions and castrating the Imperium for his own benefit. I disagree.

I reckon the situation post-heresy dictated the end of the Legions, not just politically but militarily and logistically. Fact is, the Legions were dead as an efficient military organisation standard by the Heresy, and Gulliman's Legion and his own skills made him the one that needed to step up to what was needed to be done.

I agree with the Legion structure making little to no sense in the wake of the Heresy and the general trends of Imperial force dispositions at the end of the Great Crusade.

The Great Crusade took place during 200 years when the warp was relatively placated, spent from the birth of Slaanesh. This allowed much more centralized command and travel, allowing the sprawling command chain and elements of the Legions across multiple campaigns/star systems to coordinate, supply and importantly, ship out new recruits from their levy worlds on the other side of the galaxy. They were as a modern industrialized high-tech army; each campaign and unit not very self-sufficient and reliant on constant resupply. With Chaos' reemergence, from Istvaan on, we went back to an often tumultuous, unreliable warp and thus unreliable ability to communicate. You now needed units to be more self-sufficient in both supply, recruitment and command authority, able to survive and replenish in their combat area for extended periods, and more forwardly deployed to effectively respond to crisis. In effect, localized deployment, recruitment and material replacement. Even if the Legions were never officially split, operational realities would have resulted in increasing levels of independence and self-identity amongst their formations, and the de-facto creation of essentially independent chapters which, whether in roving fleets or confined to a certain area of operations, would hardly ever see each other. In fact the sheer scale of the galaxy had already created this even without warp storms - far-flung units from traitor legions not seen for decades arriving back from the edges of known space to find the civil war, and throwing their hats in with the loyalists.

So with the essential gradual fragmenting of the Legion's operations, coherence and ability to communicate across the galaxy, why bother keeping this ponderous high-level organisation, when it now only serves to legitimize wide-scale Astartes loyalty to a small command group for no real command benefit?

In addition to the trouble with calling for and getting supplies through the warp across huge distances, you had many of the principal Forge Worlds severely damaged or destroyed by the Heresy with corresponding loss of many unique production capabilities and crippling of the previous, centralized supply system. Shortfall in production would have been delegated officially or unofficially to new Forges more forwardly deployed or closer to forces, encouraging further independence of units. In addition. at least in the beginning, the ability to produce large amounts of the high-tech equipment required on the Legion-level was probably in doubt, which required more careful husbanding of valuable Astartes and their equipment. Thus it was that the Imperial Guard and the forward-deployed PDF were required to shoulder a greater primacy in combat, and the Astartes shed much of their theatre-level orientation for a more tactical-objective based posture to go with their increased self-sufficiency.

While the Legions hold the glory of the halcyon days of the Imperium, the pragmatic realities of the sheer scale of their success and the galaxy's hostile nature were rightly recognized by Guilliman as requiring them be reorganized (along with conforming with pressure to detooth the threat of Astartes rebellions).

In addition, there was technically nothing stopping chapters from uniting to prosecute campaigns together when needed, apart from the political pressure and organisational etiquette/norms later dictated by the High Lords in the wake of the disappearance of the Primarchs. The chapter structure is still able to be combined and fight together just like the Legions when called for and allowed to.

Simply put: the Legions in the modern chaos of the late 41st millennium is putting too many eggs into one Schrodinger's box. There seems to be little to nothing recommending it as an organisational structure over decentralisation.

In the this new 42nd millennium, these facts I would think are even more relevant. Sweeping the galaxy with another huge concentration of force sounds great, until you remember the problems of attrition and coordination that merely travelling through the warp brings: with ships/supplies/messages being lost or delayed en route, how do you ensure they all arrive at the same time, how to ensure steady resupply for such large expeditionary forces, wastage of resources on threats which don't require it, how do you even know where this sort of force is needed with the patchy comms, etc, etc. which puts a dampener on the feasibility of the Indomitus Crusade, the actual benefit of the 500 worlds, and even ensuring every chapter gets Primaris tech within 100 years in my eyes. In comparison, the famous Kryptmann Census, even without the Great Rift, struggled to get into contact with many planets supposedly still in the Imperium, took years, and burnt out the best astropaths in the Imperium. These used to be central and very real problems for the Imperium in 40k, even before the Rift, that nonetheless seem to have been forgotten.

In addition to in-universe practicalities, there is the thematic aspect. The Legions and Chapters represent the break between the glorious Heroic Age of the Imperium, ruled by gods and demi-gods for all its legends and catastrophes; to one of dirt, blood and iron, ruled by mortals for all its bureaucracy and mortality. In this is seen in the way Asartes are organised and how they fight. In one they are sweeping armies of glory - in the other, a tactical instrument used in ad hoc combined arms with other forces, while being half-whispered, rare and awed echoes of that distant Heroic Era.

I'd prefer if they kept that distinction. Don't let the concept and necessity of the Adeptus Astartes chapters atrophy into a bland mass of legion-esque workings in an attempt to capture the marketing appeal of bygone eras, and the quick and lazy hook of bigger, better and more powerful Space Marines. Don’t look at the Great Crusade as a time to be emulated, but a time of dreams that we are still trying to deal with the repercussions of.

 

[Charlo]

There were almost two million marines in service at the height of the Great Crusade. If Cawl had a million on ice and there were about a million already around as oldmarines that would mean the rift doesn't even matter

 

 

As far as Casman's point, in AoS Stormhosts are much smaller than SM chapters. I wonder if 'new' Primaris chapters aren't going to become much smaller too.

 

Why would it mean it doesn't matter? 2 Million marines is a drop in the ocean compared to the amount of Orks, Tyranids, other Xenos, Chaos Cults, Daemons and other threats to the Imperium, easily multiple billions. The rift has only brought more problems to the galaxy and I dare say no amount of marines can solve it quickly.

 

I also wouldn't take anything Stormcast do as any relation to Primaris.

[Robbienw]

There weren't 20 additional chapters per subsector either, that appears to be a made up number.

 

The only info I can find in Dark Imperium or any other source, regarding numbers of primaris chapters, is that there were 'dozens' of primaris chapters made.

[Ishagu]

OK so I dug up the lore. The Unnumbered sons were the size of 9 full Legions (100k bring the Conservative Legion size although most were bigger), so around 900k - 1 million.

 

This was at the start, and in the book it's explicitly stated that a huge number of Astartes were held back and more were being awoken as and when required.

 

Also upon his return to Ultramar Guilliman assigns over a dozen new chapters to the region. In fact in the book he seems to re-enforce every single sector they wage war in with multiple Ultima founding chapters as permanent garrisons.

 

This is on top of the fact that chapters like the Blood Angels and Crimson Fists are almost entirely rebuilt in Primaris, and the Ultras are mostly Primaris too. The fact is that at least 94% of chapters have received Primaris, a lot fully re-built and many newly created. It's pretty simple to deduce the numbers.

[Captain Idaho]

Interesting information Ishagu. Do you have any quotes at all?

 

From what I know of Guilliman's character, I think it is evident that he'll not be too fussed about changing things up however he feels.

[Ishagu]

I can't link anything as I'm away from a computer but I did have another brief read.

 

The numbers are even bigger than I thought because what actually happens is that half of the Ultima founding is sent to form new chapters or re-enforce existing ones, and the other half is formed into 9 Legion sized forces.

[Marshal Rohr]

Gonna need some quotes given your track record of making stuff up

[Ishagu]

Dark Imperium novel, chapter 7.

 

Enjoy the read

[Marshal Rohr]

Page and paragraph

[Robbienw]

No, Ishagu is still making these hyper inflated numbers up.  They are pure headcannon fantasy.

 

Legion size isn't set. At what time of Legion sizes is the size of the ultima founding comparable to?  A legion is anything bigger than a chapter really.  There are 3 distinct size setting of the legions, from the start of the great crusade, end of the great crusade/isstvan, and the end of the heresy/scouring.

 

The legion size around the start of the great crusade was probably much smaller, around 10k size like the old legion sizes GW used to give.  Just prior to the heresy starting, you had big variations of sizes with the like of the raven guard and salamanders around 80k, up to the likes of the SoH being 170 to 180k, and the Ultramarines at a massive 250k+

 

Then after the Heresy, the Legion sizes were small due to massive casualties.  Some like the SW and the Space Wolves were only a few thousand strong.

 

You can't infer any number from the comment something is legion sized, cause legion sized can be a bit bigger than a chapter up to 250k in the heresy background.  An unnumbered sons force of 10k would be legion sized for example.

 

So the only numbers we have to go on proving the size of these legion sized formations, are those directly quoted in Dark Imperium chapter 7 which states Cawl made 'many tens of thousands' of Primaris, and the 'Dozens' of Primaris chapters were created.  Also you have Captain Numitors statement that there wouldn't be enough Primaris to solve the Imperium's problems even if there were 1 million of them, which strongly implies there were a lot less than that. 

 

As for the BA and CF being entirely rebuilt with Primaris, this is false once again.  BA are being rebuilt with a mix of Primaris and normal marines according to their codex fluff.  The codex states they have large numbers of scouts above normal, allowing them to field whole armies of scouts, and we know Scouts are a classic marine only thing. 

 

As for the CF, according to the vigilus book there were around 350 standard crimson fist survivors and 500 primaris given by gulliman.  That is nowhere near to being 'entirely' rebuilt with Primaris.

 

On to the claim that the Ultramarines are majority primaris, again there is nothing to back this up and is another made up claim without supporting evidence.  We have evidence to suggest this is not the case if the Ultramarines 2nd company is anything to go by.  Their force organisation at the time of the plague wars (so around the current point in the DI timeline) is shown in the SM codex, and shows that the 2nd company is about 70% Classic Marine and 30% Primaris.

[Ishagu]

Lol OK guys. You can think whatever you want. It's clear you've not read the recent novels so there's no point in even discussing this further.

 

Back to topic now. I'm bored of discussing numbers.