Guilliman's Return and the Codex Astartes

[Kontakt]

What utter nonsense. Marine chapters are renowned for co-operating all the time and electing a leader from the most senior chapters. Look at the likes of Armageddon, Cadia, the badab war etc. Even insular chapters co-operate, they are just a bit less communicative, they tend more to turn up and smash stuff to bits. Even the DA and the SW put their differences aside to fight together on many occasions.

 

The true number of insular chapters who won’t fight with other chapters is tiny and limited to a few outliers who other chapters don’t want to fight alongside because they are scum like the marines malovelent or dangerous because of a gene flaw.

The Dark Angels run off and do their own thing half the time (vigillus, book 1). They are unreliable at best; they have threatened and even fired upon other imperial forces in their desperate quest to hide a heresy they are not responsible for. There is deep mistrust of the space wolves (wulfen aren't exactly standard). "Renowned for co-operating" must be an euphemism, since every time an astartes commander needs to be chosen, there is an argument (hellsreach, the war of the beast, etc.). After all, who decides what qualifies as a "senior chapter?" It may still seem minor to you, but these are issues a legion would not have at all. I am not saying that these chapters can't work together, but they don't seem to do that very often.

[Marshal Rohr]

What we see in the lore is chapters not working together as a narrative device for dramatic impact. The actual functioning of the chapters would be closer to Badab, where uncooperative elements are outliers (Sharks, Fire Hawks, Executioners, and Minotaurs).

 

It’s the lack of support assets that clearly show where chapters lack the most important elements the legions could bring to the field. The integrated command would have to exist or nothing would be possible, but even the new Primaris lore doesn’t fix that problem. Chapters could be insular if they were bigger and had a full spectrum of assets to call on.

[Ciler]

What we see in the lore is chapters not working together as a narrative device for dramatic impact.

Exactly. We as observers of the storyline love an underdog/small guy/man that does it his own way, so there's an emphasis on that. The lone wolf looks a lot more "badass" than the solid crew when achieving a specific goal. But in practice, most theatres of war always involve several astartes chapters.

[Volt]

The main issue with the legions is that they aren't what the Imperium needs at all. To be frank the Legions, while well suited for reclamation from a small starting position in a fashion similar to the establishment of the Hellenic or Mongol Empires- are godawful structures for actually defending those regions. Realistically any space marine legion would be completely whipped by chapters in a defensive war, as legions suffer from concentration of force that makes them weak to being picked apart by chevancheé. 

 

This is why I pretty much hate most of the modern writing as it's done in a fashion that doesn't actually make any sense. The Codex Astartes as originally conceived made a fair amount of sense - its only flaws are those of numerical limitations imposed upon Chapters with the asinine 1k hard cap on linemen instead of focusing on something more sensible (such as limiting the size of naval assets). Instead Guilliman wakes up, apparently has a stroke and forgets everything he learned over the course of the Heresy and Scouring; and decides that remaking the chapters in fashion of a legion while not having a legion's numbers is a BRILLIANT plan. While also devising squad and unit structures that are clearly made by game designers to sell models instead of people seriously considering how in the god damn these units are supposed to function in the 'reality' of the fiction, resulting in gross SOD snapping by many fans. 

 

Plus if you really wanted to benefit space marines with new strategic genius, you'd just improve their logistics. Not add a whole new layer of logistical complexity onto the chapter that will take centuries to refit the entire galaxy for. Codex Astartes 2.0 should have been about streamlining the logistics of Chapters to make them function autonomously in greater efficiency while also boosting the success rate of recruitment to allow for rapid recuperation from losses and enabling chapters to fabricate most of their tech on-site instead of needing mechanicum support, which is a liability. It's hard to justify in-universe as well, as restricting wargear to certain squad types and effectively reducing the flexibility of the Adeptus Astartes is a move so grievously moronic that Guilliman should be taken in by the Inquisition to make sure he's really not Omegon with a fresh paintjob. 

[Subtleknife]

The main issue with the legions is that they aren't what the Imperium needs at all. To be frank the Legions, while well suited for reclamation from a small starting position in a fashion similar to the establishment of the Hellenic or Mongol Empires- are godawful structures for actually defending those regions. Realistically any space marine legion would be completely whipped by chapters in a defensive war, as legions suffer from concentration of force that makes them weak to being picked apart by chevancheé.

 

Not really. As long as the legion itself had good communications, the intent was understood at all levels, good logistic supply and those lower down the chain were free to exercise mission command then the legion should be a more effective tool of war where decision can be made quickly and effectively.

[Volt]

 

The main issue with the legions is that they aren't what the Imperium needs at all. To be frank the Legions, while well suited for reclamation from a small starting position in a fashion similar to the establishment of the Hellenic or Mongol Empires- are godawful structures for actually defending those regions. Realistically any space marine legion would be completely whipped by chapters in a defensive war, as legions suffer from concentration of force that makes them weak to being picked apart by chevancheé.

Not really. As long as the legion itself had good communications, the intent was understood at all levels, good logistic supply and those lower down the chain were free to exercise mission command then the legion should be a more effective tool of war where decision can be made quickly and effectively.

 

No it isn't, because ultimately it's a single army tied around a singular commander and is only effective at one place at one point of time. The Imperium doesn't need great crusade forces anymore, what it needs is thousands of garrisons across the galaxy to counter and repel enemy incursions as they appear. A legion is completely inappropriate for defensive war as it will be torn to shreds in ambushes and guerilla fighting which it is completely incapable of countering effectively. They'll bounce off Chapters like the Mongols bounced off of Hungarian castles in both wars. 

[Subtleknife]

 

 

 

The main issue with the legions is that they aren't what the Imperium needs at all. To be frank the Legions, while well suited for reclamation from a small starting position in a fashion similar to the establishment of the Hellenic or Mongol Empires- are godawful structures for actually defending those regions. Realistically any space marine legion would be completely whipped by chapters in a defensive war, as legions suffer from concentration of force that makes them weak to being picked apart by chevancheé.

Not really. As long as the legion itself had good communications, the intent was understood at all levels, good logistic supply and those lower down the chain were free to exercise mission command then the legion should be a more effective tool of war where decision can be made quickly and effectively.

No it isn't, because ultimately it's a single army tied around a singular commander and is only effective at one place at one point of time. The Imperium doesn't need great crusade forces anymore, what it needs is thousands of garrisons across the galaxy to counter and repel enemy incursions as they appear. A legion is completely inappropriate for defensive war as it will be torn to shreds in ambushes and guerilla fighting which it is completely incapable of countering effectively. They'll bounce off Chapters like the Mongols bounced off of Hungarian castles in both wars.

I dont think you understand how modern military planning/operations are conducted. It is all centred around mission command which combines centralised intent with decentralised execution subsidiarity and promotes freedom and speed of action, and initiative, within defined constraints. Through this a very large force can have extraordinarily fast decision cycles whether concentrated in one place or dispersed over a region. A legion operating under these principals would be a very effective tool whether used defensively or offensively.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I agree with SubtleKnife Volt, your theoretical is based upon the idea that only the Legion Commander has the ability to make decisions and implement them. That concept of military command has been outdated since the 1940s. The British-Indian 14th Army found that it was impossible to operate in that way when faced with the logistical problems of fighting across a vast mountainous jungle region with 1940s quality radio equipment. So mission command was dispersed down the chain of command, every individual leader was given the wider concept of the battle, but with more decision making power at a local level. The 14th Army was arguably one of the must successful armies as a result.

[Triszin]

Well I dont play SW nor have I read the codex, so if ya could lay it down.

Grimnar accepts them, most wolves do but are sometimes worry of them.

 

As they are outsiders unknown of the wolves customs, however. The wolves established a "right of way" for them if they choose to do it. Of all the primaris, most of the inceptors and reivers make their way to fenris, and do the initiation rights. Dropped off on the other side of fenris, practically naked and they have to make their way back to the fang.

 

Wolves are more open and accepting than other chapters, as a good fighter is a good fighter.

 

Interestingly the wolves also have a policy in place. If old Marines or primaris have a problem with each other, then they brawl it out, no killing. There's a funny tidbit about young fenris an bloodclaws challenging primaris and a brawl starting, and the wolf priests let it happen, as it teaches the others to respect each other.

 

 

Other annoying thing. No mention of the wolves successors at all. It's still unknown to me if the wolves are aware of them.

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

 

 

The main issue with the legions is that they aren't what the Imperium needs at all. To be frank the Legions, while well suited for reclamation from a small starting position in a fashion similar to the establishment of the Hellenic or Mongol Empires- are godawful structures for actually defending those regions. Realistically any space marine legion would be completely whipped by chapters in a defensive war, as legions suffer from concentration of force that makes them weak to being picked apart by chevancheé.

Not really. As long as the legion itself had good communications, the intent was understood at all levels, good logistic supply and those lower down the chain were free to exercise mission command then the legion should be a more effective tool of war where decision can be made quickly and effectively.

No it isn't, because ultimately it's a single army tied around a singular commander and is only effective at one place at one point of time. The Imperium doesn't need great crusade forces anymore, what it needs is thousands of garrisons across the galaxy to counter and repel enemy incursions as they appear. A legion is completely inappropriate for defensive war as it will be torn to shreds in ambushes and guerilla fighting which it is completely incapable of countering effectively. They'll bounce off Chapters like the Mongols bounced off of Hungarian castles in both wars.

I dont think you understand how modern military planning/operations are conducted. It is all centred around mission command which combines centralised intent with decentralised execution subsidiarity and promotes freedom and speed of action, and initiative, within defined constraints. Through this a very large force can have extraordinarily fast decision cycles whether concentrated in one place or dispersed over a region. A legion operating under these principals would be a very effective tool whether used defensively or offensively.

 

 

I generally agree with Brother Subtleknife's observations concerning command and control of the Legions and decision and execution cycle times. But the Legions were designed as a force of conquest and that's what they were best suited for, even though they could perform other functions when necessary, just not optimally. The Unnumbered Sons imo was a ad hoc legion style crusade force put together by  Primarch Guilliman to meet the crisis at hand. Towards the end of the Indomitus Crusade it was clear that a legion size/style force was not the final word on Space Marine formations as far as Primarch Guilliman was concerned. Even though we see what looks like a lot of specific purpose built Primaris units along Legion lines, I think it is far too soon to even have a reasonable guess as to what a new Astartes Codex will look like. Primaris are just too much in a embryonic stage of development. In large numbers, Primaris are a great blunt instrument of war and in small formations great support units. But, until I see something close to what a "new" Primaris chapter looks like as envisioned by Big Bobby G they just don't look like the future of Space Marines to me.

 

On the bright side, with the advent of the Primaris we have an opportunity to totally reinvent the Space Marine chapters. Threats are vast and terrible (as usual), but with new energy and clarity of purpose as envisioned by Guiliman, Space Marine chapters can once again be the true bulwark of the Imperium and tip of the spear for new offensive crusade forces. I can see different chapter structures for different purposes. We can have bastion chapters designed for sector defense, crusade chapters designed for offensive operations, and multi-purpose chapters as well. One can argue that we already have this, and we do to some extent, but not optimally and in many cases not truly sanctioned. Some chapters may be small (500-600?), others might be larger(1000-2000?), but I think the days of the one size and structure fits all Space Marine chapter is over... or at least should be. Time will tell.

 

None of this will detract from the grimness of the 40Kverse. It's still two minutes to midnight and humanity is still neck deep in the stinky.