Guilliman's Return and the Codex Astartes

[Robbienw]

I've read many recent novels, including Dark Imperium and Dark Imperium 2, War of Secrets, and of Honour and Iron.  I've also read the current SM, BA, DA, SW and Deathwatch codices.  I'm finding all this information directly from these sources...

[Marshal Rohr]

Regardless of how big the Unnumbered Sons, the new Silver Templars article is going to go into Primaris only organization, but it wont be available to the majority of GW readers.

[Brother Casman]

I'm gonna be contrarian and say I dislike how GW seems to be backtracking from the Codex Astartes to try and recapture the glamour of the Legions. The romanticism surrounding the Legions in the fanbase seems to mirror the in-universe opposition to re-organizing into Chapters at the end of the Scouring. That is, putting feelings and glory over the pragmatic reality of a new age - which is why Guilliman was the one to force it, and the least-likely to backtrack on it if the reasons he implemented it have become worse, and that despite the array of enemies it faces and the intransigence of mere mortals, the Imperium is still the dominant power after 10 millennia(!) with this system.

 

 

The fad is to hate Gulliman for destroying the grandeur of the Legions and castrating the Imperium for his own benefit. I disagree.

 

I reckon the situation post-heresy dictated the end of the Legions, not just politically but militarily and logistically. Fact is, the Legions were dead as an efficient military organisation standard by the Heresy, and Gulliman's Legion and his own skills made him the one that needed to step up to what was needed to be done.

I agree with the Legion structure making little to no sense in the wake of the Heresy and the general trends of Imperial force dispositions at the end of the Great Crusade.

 

The Great Crusade took place during 200 years when the warp was relatively placated, spent from the birth of Slaanesh. This allowed much more centralized command and travel, allowing the sprawling command chain and elements of the Legions across multiple campaigns/star systems to coordinate, supply and importantly, ship out new recruits from their levy worlds on the other side of the galaxy. They were as a modern industrialized high-tech army; each campaign and unit not very self-sufficient and reliant on constant resupply. With Chaos' reemergence, from Istvaan on, we went back to an often tumultuous, unreliable warp and thus unreliable ability to communicate. You now needed units to be more self-sufficient in both supply, recruitment and command authority, able to survive and replenish in their combat area for extended periods, and more forwardly deployed to effectively respond to crisis. In effect, localized deployment, recruitment and material replacement. Even if the Legions were never officially split, operational realities would have resulted in increasing levels of independence and self-identity amongst their formations, and the de-facto creation of essentially independent chapters which, whether in roving fleets or confined to a certain area of operations, would hardly ever see each other. In fact the sheer scale of the galaxy had already created this even without warp storms - far-flung units from traitor legions not seen for decades arriving back from the edges of known space to find the civil war, and throwing their hats in with the loyalists.

 

So with the essential gradual fragmenting of the Legion's operations, coherence and ability to communicate across the galaxy, why bother keeping this ponderous high-level organisation, when it now only serves to legitimize wide-scale Astartes loyalty to a small command group for no real command benefit?

 

In addition to the trouble with calling for and getting supplies through the warp across huge distances, you had many of the principal Forge Worlds severely damaged or destroyed by the Heresy with corresponding loss of many unique production capabilities and crippling of the previous, centralized supply system. Shortfall in production would have been delegated officially or unofficially to new Forges more forwardly deployed or closer to forces, encouraging further independence of units. In addition. at least in the beginning, the ability to produce large amounts of the high-tech equipment required on the Legion-level was probably in doubt, which required more careful husbanding of valuable Astartes and their equipment. Thus it was that the Imperial Guard and the forward-deployed PDF were required to shoulder a greater primacy in combat, and the Astartes shed much of their theatre-level orientation for a more tactical-objective based posture to go with their increased self-sufficiency.

 

While the Legions hold the glory of the halcyon days of the Imperium, the pragmatic realities of the sheer scale of their success and the galaxy's hostile nature were rightly recognized by Guilliman as requiring them be reorganized (along with conforming with pressure to detooth the threat of Astartes rebellions).

 

In addition, there was technically nothing stopping chapters from uniting to prosecute campaigns together when needed, apart from the political pressure and organisational etiquette/norms later dictated by the High Lords in the wake of the disappearance of the Primarchs. The chapter structure is still able to be combined and fight together just like the Legions when called for and allowed to.

 

Simply put: the Legions in the modern chaos of the late 41st millennium is putting too many eggs into one Schrodinger's box. There seems to be little to nothing recommending it as an organisational structure over decentralisation.

 

In the this new 42nd millennium, these facts I would think are even more relevant. Sweeping the galaxy with another huge concentration of force sounds great, until you remember the problems of attrition and coordination that merely travelling through the warp brings: with ships/supplies/messages being lost or delayed en route, how do you ensure they all arrive at the same time, how to ensure steady resupply for such large expeditionary forces, wastage of resources on threats which don't require it, how do you even know where this sort of force is needed with the patchy comms, etc, etc. which puts a dampener on the feasibility of the Indomitus Crusade, the actual benefit of the 500 worlds, and even ensuring every chapter gets Primaris tech within 100 years in my eyes. In comparison, the famous Kryptmann Census, even without the Great Rift, struggled to get into contact with many planets supposedly still in the Imperium, took years, and burnt out the best astropaths in the Imperium. These used to be central and very real problems for the Imperium in 40k, even before the Rift, that nonetheless seem to have been forgotten.

 

In addition to in-universe practicalities, there is the thematic aspect. The Legions and Chapters represent the break between the glorious Heroic Age of the Imperium, ruled by gods and demi-gods for all its legends and catastrophes; to one of dirt, blood and iron, ruled by mortals for all its bureaucracy and mortality. In this is seen in the way Asartes are organised and how they fight. In one they are sweeping armies of glory - in the other, a tactical instrument used in ad hoc combined arms with other forces, while being half-whispered, rare and awed echoes of that distant Heroic Era.

 

I'd prefer if they kept that distinction. Don't let the concept and necessity of the Adeptus Astartes chapters atrophy into a bland mass of legion-esque workings in an attempt to capture the marketing appeal of bygone eras, and the quick and lazy hook of bigger, better and more powerful Space Marines. Don’t look at the Great Crusade as a time to be emulated, but a time of dreams that we are still trying to deal with the repercussions of.

 

You raise some good points, SpecialIssue. This definitely reinforces the idea that Legion style groupings can only be temporary at best in the Dark Millenium

[Marshal Rohr]

The Legions are romanticized because of their power and abilities, they are objectively more effective as armies than chapters, which are more effective at limited policing of conquered territory. The fact the Codex had to formalize the groupings of chapters into larger legion-lite strike forces to execute the missions the legions used to undertake is a tacit acknowledgement of that. If Guilliman has begun to reorganize the chapters, he needs to focus on the integrated fleet and ground assets that made the Legions so powerful. Things like Storm Talons were never capable of providing true air support, nor were the other version that is more like a jet. Space Marines may not need to be ten thousand strong anymore, but a full thousand Primaris marines backed by an armored battalion and fighters/bombers deployed from a battleship that can also carry IG and Navy assets. If that is all the chapter has, that's okay, but for the love of god give us the ability to build our lore around a fighting force that can do more than police mining colonies and put down rebel governors.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Numbers..... Chapters...… and Legions...… oh my...….

Numbers: Where Brother Ishagu may have been a tad optimistic in his Primaris numbers, I think it's safe to say there were a LOT of Unnumbered Sons. Based on the description given in Dark Imperium and given the average legion size we are probably talking between 500k and 1m. I tend to lean towards the low end at 500k. But even with those numbers Guilliman could re-enforce 1000 chapters with 500 Primaris each..... which of coarse didn't happen. War casualties during the crusade would have whittled down the Primaris numbers some, maybe even substantially..... hard to say. Many chapters may have been obliterated completely by the Great Rift and many more definitely took heavy losses from the Rift and Chaos invasion. The Blood Angels alone lost at least half their forces and I believe the Ultramarines as well (although that seems to me like a regular occurrence under Calgar's fine leadership.... sorry, a discussion for another time). My feeling is that at best the Astartes were back to approximately the same numbers thanks to the introduction of the Primaris…. maybe a little more if you are wildly optimistic. But 2 million?...… I don't think so. Even with the introduction of the Primaris, the Astartes were hurt badly.

Chapters..... and Legions:

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I'm gonna be contrarian and say I dislike how GW seems to be backtracking from the Codex Astartes to try and recapture the glamour of the Legions. The romanticism surrounding the Legions in the fanbase seems to mirror the in-universe opposition to re-organizing into Chapters at the end of the Scouring. That is, putting feelings and glory over the pragmatic reality of a new age - which is why Guilliman was the one to force it, and the least-likely to backtrack on it if the reasons he implemented it have become worse, and that despite the array of enemies it faces and the intransigence of mere mortals, the Imperium is still the dominant power after 10 millennia(!) with this system.

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Alis aquilae, judicium - On eagle's wings, judgement.
Ex astra, mortis - From the stars, death.

Fiat justitia, etiam mundi mori - Let there be justice, even though worlds die.

~ the Guardian Eagles

W40k - a gothic military fantasy, in that order.

Analysis of the 41st Millennium - boltguns, chainswords, Space Marine capabilities

Like Brother SpecialIssue, I'm more than a little worried myself. The Legions were created as armies of conquest in a different time and when the galaxy had a different face. The Legions were vast and glorious and I loved them, But, their day is gone and the galaxy is a different place and the Imperium faces vastly different enemies. I hope that GW by way of Guilliman is not going to change the Chapter structure so much that we see miniature legions with formations of single purpose squads dominating the field. Hellblasters were my first glimpse at this posibiliy. Don't get me wrong, I love these guys. I just don't want them to be the trend.

On the other hand.....

The Legions are romanticized because of their power and abilities, they are objectively more effective as armies than chapters, which are more effective at limited policing of conquered territory. The fact the Codex had to formalize the groupings of chapters into larger legion-lite strike forces to execute the missions the legions used to undertake is a tacit acknowledgement of that. If Guilliman has begun to reorganize the chapters, he needs to focus on the integrated fleet and ground assets that made the Legions so powerful. Things like Storm Talons were never capable of providing true air support, nor were the other version that is more like a jet. Space Marines may not need to be ten thousand strong anymore, but a full thousand Primaris marines backed by an armored battalion and fighters/bombers deployed from a battleship that can also carry IG and Navy assets. If that is all the chapter has, that's okay, but for the love of god give us the ability to build our lore around a fighting force that can do more than police mining colonies and put down rebel governors.

Our good Brother Marshal Rohr brings up an excellent point about making the chapter a more effective fighting force. I think the core structure of the Astartes Chapter is sound. It only needs proper support elements. Clearly, Guilliman understood that the leadership of the Imperium after the Heresy would not stand for a fully supported self contained Astartes fighting force (they almost certainly didn't see the need for one either). Thus, we had the standard codex chapter with very limited fleet assets and ground support elements. I think storywise we need to see a more robust Space Marine chapter with proper ground and air support elements and a battle fleet that doesn't have to scatter after deploying it's Space Marines to the combat zone. I think the addition of a formal armoured battalion and air wing to support the ground troops is in order. As to fleet disposition, a few more support elements (gladius, Hunter, and Nova squadrons) would work..... IG and Navy assets might be pushing it. This would bring the Astartes Chapter up to a proper task force level. Big enough to get the job done in this new galaxy of Chaos, Necrons, and Tyranids (Oh My) and not so big as to seriously threaten the Imperial Navy.

My worry with creating new force structures and integrating Primaris Astartes is not if Guilliman is up to the task. My worry is GW up to the task? I see a lot of imaginative talent but not much war planning experience. So many unknown factors right now...... what's a Chapter Master to do

[Ciler]

So, Guilliman's magnum opus was expressly written to break up the Space Marine Legions, [...]

Thoughts?

I disagree.

 

I can't remember precisely in which heresy book it is, but it depicts a simulated/training battle. One of the UM captains leads a company, and the "enemies" are lead by - it is eventually revealed - Guilliman himself. If anyone has the name of the story in mind ?

 

In this simulation, the captain is directly sourcing his strategies from the codex astartes, which is in my memory anyway much more a strategy guide the writing of which was started before the heresy than created for the specific purpose of breaking the legions. It may have evolved this way, but I question the notion that it was ever it's original purpose.

 

That doesn't void the rest of your argument, however.

[Brother Casman]

Hmmm, fair point Ciler. I would think that in the aftermath of the Heresy, Guilliman could have decided to add his amendments of the Legion organization to his prior works. We know that he wanted to break the Legions down.

 

I suppose that it's also possible that what we got was an incomplete Codex Astartes, since he did get mortally wounded by Fulgrim. Maybe he just didn't get the time to finish it?

[Marshal Rohr]

To put the numbers debate to rest for once and for all:

 

"Of the many tens of thousands of Primaris Space Marines created by Belisarius Cawl, only half were initially formed into new Chapters. The rest had been gathered into great armies, each of one gene-line." 

Dark Imperium, Chapter 7, page 90.

 

"As the Indomitus Crusade progressed, the Unnumbered Sons had dwindled. Roboute Guillimsn took them from their companies and squads, and he assigned them to understrength Space Marine Chapters encountered on the way. Whole companies might be hived off, or only a few units. Sometimes the primarch took them by the hundred to create new Chapters where he saw the need."

Dark Imperium, Chapter 7, page 91.

 

So, going by Ishagu's own source, there were never even a hundred thousand created by Cawl, because 'tens of thousands' maxes out after 90,000. There is zero mention of twenty Chapters being distributed to each sector, and the largest mention here is 'by the hundred' to create new chapters. Pretty cut and dry. Even the most generous allowance of the the English language would mean that there are less that two hundred thousand Primaris, or it stops being TENS of thousands and becomes HUNDREDS of Thousands at the 200K mark. I don't know what possesses him to lie to make Primaris the end all be all of everything, but this is the lore.

[Sete]

I'm more interested in the chapters that never followed the codex, SW and BT.

Are they just going to be ignored just because?

They didn't follow the codex first time Guilliman was around, they should do so again.

[Marshal Rohr]

They’ve already released a Space Wolves Codex and how their organization adapted to Primaris.

[Sete]

Well I dont play SW nor have I read the codex, so if ya could lay it down.

[Marshal Rohr]

I have only seen a handful of snippets. My dad plays space wolves so I only have access to it when I’m visiting. The parts I’ve seen were about inceptors and sky claws

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

So, Guilliman's magnum opus was expressly written to break up the Space Marine Legions, [...]

Thoughts?

I disagree.

 

I can't remember precisely in which heresy book it is, but it depicts a simulated/training battle. One of the UM captains leads a company, and the "enemies" are lead by - it is eventually revealed - Guilliman himself. If anyone has the name of the story in mind ?

 

In this simulation, the captain is directly sourcing his strategies from the codex astartes, which is in my memory anyway much more a strategy guide the writing of which was started before the heresy than created for the specific purpose of breaking the legions. It may have evolved this way, but I question the notion that it was ever it's original purpose.

 

That doesn't void the rest of your argument, however.

 

 

The story you are referring to is 'Rules of Engagement' by Graham McNeill. It was first published in the HH anthology Age of Darkness (May 2011).

 

Another glimpse into the origin of the Codex is the short audio drama Stratagem by Nick Kyme. It's a very revealing conversation between Primarch Guilliman and Brother Sergeant Aeonid Thiel. First released in Dec 2014 it's still available for download onto your favorite vox/cogitator. It's cheap and short and well worth the listen.

 

Brother Casman, based on your initial observation I think it's safe to say "no", the Codex was not written to "break up" the Legions nor to "encourage" the Space Marine Chapters to scatter across the Imperium. These were already established and enforced (with a very few unofficial exceptions) by Imperial edicts after the Heresy (before, during, or after the Scouring I'm not sure). The Codex was fundamentally a treatise on all (theoretically) aspects Astartes warfare is it would be prosecuted by the Chapters.

I think at the time of it's publication unified Astartes operations would have been to say the least a touchy subject best not "officially" addressed. Although I find it hard to believe that Guilliman did not consider and document this possibility in some way. The Codex may even have done this.... in some highly classified appendix locked away deep in the bowels of various Space Marine chapter monasteries and battle barges. Coordinated joint Astartes operations certainly occurred. A prime example is the Battle of Tsagualsa, where a unified fleet of the Ultramarines Primogenitor Chapters attacked the surviving Night Lords Legion after the Horus Heresy and broke it as a unified force.

 

I think your other observations are quite valid and most are spot on. No doubt Primarch Guilliman intended the Codex as a work in progress and would have addressed it's shortcomings had he not taken that 10k year stasis nap (what a shirker). When he finally woke up, I'm sure he was more than a little disappointed that the Codex was not used optimally by any of the chapters. The Chapters had not evolved or progressed as he had hoped. But I dare say he was not too surprised.

 

As I commented earlier my main concern for the new Codex is not if Big Bobby G is up to the task...….

[Ciler]

The story you are referring to is 'Rules of Engagement' by Graham McNeill. It was first published in the HH anthology Age of Darkness (May 2011).

Thanks !

 

Also I expect he would be quite disappointed with astartes the like of Leandros (in the SPace Marine video game) that view the Codex more as a religious text to be applied to the letter than a battle doctrine with some room for adaptation on the ground.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I agree with Ciler. The Codex was not just about the break up of the Legions, it's about everything a Space Marine Force needs to know to fight anyone, anywhere with anything. ironically, it's the reverence given to the codex by a 'non-codex' chapter like the Black Templars which demonstrates its utility.

 

This is what Grimaldus says about the Codex in Blood and Fire:

 

The Codex Astartes –at least, the Eternal Crusader’s incomplete copy of that ancient text – detailed several thousand logistical concerns in the preparation, establishment and fortification of an Adeptus Astartes firebase. Humanity did not invest so much into us in order that we should grind frontline to frontline in protracted theatres of war – that is the purview of the Imperial Guard.

 

The Adeptus Astartes are the falling hammer, the spear to the vitals, striking and withdrawing with the force of a killing thrust to the heart. But no plan survives contact with the enemy. Fortification and digging in during extensive worldwide Crusades are a necessity of the wars we fight.

 

While the Templars may not cling to the Codex Astartes with a tenacity bordering on worship of holy scripture, it is still the most comprehensive treatise on Space Marine warfare ever written, penned by the hand of the Emperor’s own son, Lord Guilliman of Macragge. Its value is immeasurable to any commander, no matter what divergences are found in a Chapter’s culture.

 

It is said that no complete copies still exist in the Dark Millennium. Even the original document’s origins are shrouded in more myth than truth. No records even exist as to whether Lord Guilliman wrote the Codex by hand across several dozen tomes, dictated it to nuncio-processors and servitor scribes, or compiled it himself into a hololithic library.

 

There it is again, of course. Ten thousand years ago, when we were not forced to rely on flawed records and fractured accounts.

 

 

What this always said to me is that the Codex isn't about just an order of battle, it's much, much more. If anything, it means, even more ironically, that chapters like the Black Templars, who (it is suggested by this source) use the codex as a tool rather than treating it like a quasi-religious document could be argued to be truer to the Codex's function than others! (IIRC there are sources which suggest that Guilliman was disappointed with the dogmatic way in which the Codex had been applied.)

 

 

In terms of when Guilliman actually started writing it, that's more difficult. Rules of Engagement is difficult to place in time, because although it comes early in the Heresy series, I always imagined it had to be set post-Calth. The reason for this was that prior to Calth the concept of even theorising about fighting over legions was forbidden within the Ultramarines. (Sgt Thiel was on board the Macragge's Honour immediately before the Calth massacre having been censured for exactly that!) Yet in Rules of Engagement several different legions are theorised as the enemies. (It's only when the 'enemy' at one point are revealed to be Salamanders that you realise something's up in the story.) That may also suggest the setting is really soon after Calth but pre-The Unremembered Empire, at the point when Guilliman didn't really know which Legions had sided with Horus and Lorgar.

 

(At least that's the only way to reconcile the two concepts without labelling the former a retcon!)

 

Anywho, there's my two pence. (One of which may about to be declared heresy by my fellow crusading brethren!)

[TheTrans]

Just a quick thing that popped into my head.

So the Codex Astartes is sort of used as bi-word for the 'chapterising' of the legions yeah?

Maybe its sort of being misread in a sense. Maybe Bobby wrote it in the sense that marines of a legion should serve in no smaller number than chapter strength (because there was chapters in the legions correct?)  when fighting a campaign right. So for the chapter to be able to look after its self if deployed away from the legion it should be built in an X, Y, Z (tac, dev, assault companies etc) and have V armored and aerial assets available. This would make it relatively self sufficient in the field with enough force and bodeis to be able to bring a world into compliance, or at least hold for the rest of the legion. 

So you could look at it through the lens that the Codex Astartes is written presuming you have at least a 'standard' chapter (that operates within the legion) available to you. 

The edicts came down after the heresy that marine legions should break into chapter strength forces.

 

As the years go by, people follow the "Robby G's ABC of Chapter Buidies made ease-e!" as it is written, and start to presume it was made with just a chapter in mind, but it is missing the pretext page saying "For use in any armed conflict involving space marine legion troops that are at least at chapter strength or more".z

Probably not as concise or clear as I want it to be but hopefully y'all get the drift. 

[Lord_Caerolion]

It had to involve at least some stuff about splitting the Legions, as that's the argument that Dorn and Vulkan had against it.

[Captain Idaho]

Actually no the two things were separate. Hence why there are less Wolves yet they don't follow the Codex.

[Lord_Caerolion]

That's what I get for posting at work without checking my sources.

[Kontakt]

1000 marines is not many marines. Likely the intent behind reducing legions to chapter size was to force the chapters to work in concert to defeat foes, preventing chaos taint from easily spreading beyond a much smaller number of marines, but also allowing for well organized, smaller forces to coordinate with each other. However, the chapters became insular and closed to each other, in some cases openly hostile to each other. This lack of coordination and cooperation means a greater overall reduction in the effectiveness of the forces involved, and means that astartes forces of a single chapter are at best suited for localized conflict or shipboard combat.

[Ishagu]

Yeah that's one thing he's actively trying to change. It's probably one of the biggest failings.

 

The insular chapters have failed themselves and the Imperium.

[Robbienw]

What utter nonsense. Marine chapters are renowned for co-operating all the time and electing a leader from the most senior chapters. Look at the likes of Armageddon, Cadia, the badab war etc. Even insular chapters co-operate, they are just a bit less communicative, they tend more to turn up and smash stuff to bits. Even the DA and the SW put their differences aside to fight together on many occasions.

 

The true number of insular chapters who won’t fight with other chapters is tiny and limited to a few outliers who other chapters don’t want to fight alongside because they are scum like the marines malovelent or dangerous because of a gene flaw.

[Ishagu]

Really? Like the Space Sharks, Dark Angels, Minotaur, etc?

 

There are loads that are insular and don't play nice with others. Heck the Minotaurs even severed ties with the Ultramarines.

 

If you think all chapters play nice then you don't know the lore very well. Even the Blood Angels and their successors had trouble picking leadership and assignments during the defence of Baal, and some of those chapters hadn't fought alongside Imperium forces in centuries.

[Robbienw]

Yes really.

 

The Dark Angels fight alongside numerous other chapters over their history, even their main rivals the space wolves.

 

The carcharadons are just following their original operational mandate given to them by Corax, they have still fought alongside other chapters when necessary ref the Badab War.

 

A few chapters not fighting alongside others is a minor issue, the vast majority fight together without any major issues.

[Panzer]

Chapters more often co-operate than not. The crucial thing though imo is that they don't co-ordinate with eachother until they happen to be on the same planet. If a chapter learns from an emergency or whatever on a planet and don't coincidently catch a message about another chapter dealing with it already they always have to guess whether they are actually needed there or not. If they would co-ordinate their efforts better before actually meeting onsite I'm sure Marines could cover quite a bit more ground on a galactic scale without leaving some issues unattended for years while having a redundant number of Marines dealing with other issues.