Kill Team: Elites - initial reactions/thoughts?

[Brother Navaer Solaq]

I'm just excited that my Old Marines might get combat specialists now. Company/Vanguard vets are exactly what I needed, to say nothing of the goofy fun of bringing out a classic terminator. I haven't ran classic terms since 8th dropped.

hahaha. i was intending to do the same thing.

 

i am excited to pick up the elite book this weekend.

[Berzul]

Anyone know how many points will it be for an elite kill team? I saw the updates came up in units for Battlescribe, but have no idea if we are supposed to run elites at 100 points or more

[HandsWithLegs]

Anyone know how many points will it be for an elite kill team? I saw the updates came up in units for Battlescribe, but have no idea if we are supposed to run elites at 100 points or more

I think they are now 125 if I remember right from the reviews I watch

[Marshal Arthur]

Some missions are 125 and others are 200. You can also run elites in all kill team, arena, and commander games.

[Kinstryfe]

Anyone know how many points will it be for an elite kill team? I saw the updates came up in units for Battlescribe, but have no idea if we are supposed to run elites at 100 points or more

It's best to think of Elites as just a roster expansion, kind of like a new Codex in 40k, rather than a game mode. Kill Team standard missions will still be 100pts, the two non-Commander missions in the Elites book are 125, I believe some Rogue Trader missions are 150, and Commander missions are usually 200. So ultimately, none of those have changed, and Elite units are simply new datasheets to use in existing game modes.

 

That said, my group has played a few games testing different things from the Elites book and we're finding 125pts to be an improvement on 100pts for a few reasons. Partly, it does allow players to field some of the bigger stuff if they want. While some units like Aspect Warriors, Astartes Veterans, and Khorne Berzerkers slot right in to normal play, others like Vanguard Suppressors, Terminators, and Meganobz seem to really become viable options above 100pts. It also seems to add just enough bodies to "elite" infantry lists like Deathwatch that you get a huge boost in tactical viability over a 5 model list, which has made the games more interesting. The reserve rules go along with that from what I've seen. Putting 1 of your 5 models in reserve is much more of a gamble than one of 7 (which admittedly some people may prefer), and has been a welcome addition to the game. On the flip side, it's also not a high enough points total that hoard armies are having to make bad choices just to make up points. So while I don't see 125pts being any sort of official number going forward unless events and tournaments start using it, I can definitely see a lot of gaming group metas starting to use it for a change of pace.

[Brother Eleysium]

 

Anyone know how many points will it be for an elite kill team? I saw the updates came up in units for Battlescribe, but have no idea if we are supposed to run elites at 100 points or more

It's best to think of Elites as just a roster expansion, kind of like a new Codex in 40k, rather than a game mode. Kill Team standard missions will still be 100pts, the two non-Commander missions in the Elites book are 125, I believe some Rogue Trader missions are 150, and Commander missions are usually 200. So ultimately, none of those have changed, and Elite units are simply new datasheets to use in existing game modes.

 

That said, my group has played a few games testing different things from the Elites book and we're finding 125pts to be an improvement on 100pts for a few reasons. Partly, it does allow players to field some of the bigger stuff if they want. While some units like Aspect Warriors, Astartes Veterans, and Khorne Berzerkers slot right in to normal play, others like Vanguard Suppressors, Terminators, and Meganobz seem to really become viable options above 100pts. It also seems to add just enough bodies to "elite" infantry lists like Deathwatch that you get a huge boost in tactical viability over a 5 model list, which has made the games more interesting. The reserve rules go along with that from what I've seen. Putting 1 of your 5 models in reserve is much more of a gamble than one of 7 (which admittedly some people may prefer), and has been a welcome addition to the game. On the flip side, it's also not a high enough points total that hoard armies are having to make bad choices just to make up points. So while I don't see 125pts being any sort of official number going forward unless events and tournaments start using it, I can definitely see a lot of gaming group metas starting to use it for a change of pace.

 

 

We are playing our first Elite games tomorrow, so this was a great read. I know that for our group at least, 200 pts is probably going to become pretty much standard. After reading through the Elites book, Kill Team feels like it has reached the potential it always has had, and should have been. Selfishly I do wish there were more options for standard marine HQ's, but I'll take them in Terminator Armor for now. 

 

Did anyone in your group field Custodes by chance? If so, any feedback there? I am fielding my beautiful Solar Watch boys in bone white tomorrow for the first time and I couldn't be more excited to do so. 

[Sherrypie]

125 feels much better in my opinion. It is still small, but it gives a nice little boost of extra back'n'forth for games that already include heavy infantry like Deathwatch. Personally it allows my Death Guard to have decent amount of activations on the field even without zombies, which I don't want to use, so that's an immediate win on the enjoyability front. A terminator and 4-5 marines feel fun.

[Kinstryfe]

I agree that a lot of Elites could have been in the game from day one. I mean, we had LICTORS in the main book. Most of what we got isn't a bigger model or threat than they were.

 

I did get to try out one of the book scenerios with Custodes last night, against a slapped together Chaos Marines list. I took (obviously) 3, and had two extra command points I never really used from the teams' size difference. Basically, my spear Guardian got killed easily by a Berzerker Champion and some bad savings rolls. However, the attacks that downed him were against his invulnerable save and were 3s, so had he been carrying a storm shield he would have been fine. Lesson learned: berzerkers are awesome, and so are storm shields. However, my 2 with shields didn't take a single wound during the game and dispatched numerous enemies. The only reason I technically won the game was because it was the scenario where you have to control the center Objective and then score on the other objectives if you do, and I scored 1 point turn one; the only point of the game. If it were a normal objective grabbing scenario though, I would have lost badly no matter what I did.

 

Summary: Custodes are tough and killy, but do nothing for board control in standard missions.

[Brother Eleysium]

I agree that a lot of Elites could have been in the game from day one. I mean, we had LICTORS in the main book. Most of what we got isn't a bigger model or threat than they were.

 

I did get to try out one of the book scenerios with Custodes last night, against a slapped together Chaos Marines list. I took (obviously) 3, and had two extra command points I never really used from the teams' size difference. Basically, my spear Guardian got killed easily by a Berzerker Champion and some bad savings rolls. However, the attacks that downed him were against his invulnerable save and were 3s, so had he been carrying a storm shield he would have been fine. Lesson learned: berzerkers are awesome, and so are storm shields. However, my 2 with shields didn't take a single wound during the game and dispatched numerous enemies. The only reason I technically won the game was because it was the scenario where you have to control the center Objective and then score on the other objectives if you do, and I scored 1 point turn one; the only point of the game. If it were a normal objective grabbing scenario though, I would have lost badly no matter what I did.

 

Summary: Custodes are tough and killy, but do nothing for board control in standard missions.

Awesome info, I am throwing down with mine this evening at our local store, and I absolutely cannot wait. We are playing a 200 pt game, so I have 3 Custodian Guards with Guardian Spears 1 with a Storm Shield, and one Allarus Terminator with a Castellen Ax. I will let you all know how it goes.

 

I'm really excited to try it out. 

 

I was looking over the Chaos Space Marine section over the last few days, and Berzerkers immediately stood out to me, so I can imagine. I really think the Chaos kill teams got a MUCH needed boost though. 

[Claws and Effect]

My wife and I are organizing a fairly casual Kill Team league at our local GW store.

 

300 points, only missions from the Elites book may be used, and a Commander is required.

 

We're going to see some completely bonkers OP Kill Teams, but it should be really fun.

[Panzer]

300p is pretty huge. 

[Stoic Raptor]

Lesson learned: berzerkers are awesome, and so are storm shields. However, my 2 with shields didn't take a single wound during the game and dispatched numerous enemies. The only reason I technically won the game was because it was the scenario where you have to control the center Objective and then score on the other objectives if you do, and I scored 1 point turn one; the only point of the game. If it were a normal objective grabbing scenario though, I would have lost badly no matter what I did.

 

Summary: Custodes are tough and killy, but do nothing for board control in standard missions.

 

Thank you for confirming what I've been trying to say since the moment anyone suggested adding Custodes to KT.  No matter the faction, 3 guys will never hold objectives as well.  Isn't "boys before toys" the general motto for skirmish lists?  This is part of the reason why.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

300p is pretty huge. 

 

 

Yeah, there are certainly factions that would struggle to build a decent 300 point list (IG comes to mind) - hordes in general if you are keeping the 20 model cap to the roster.  You could raise the roster size, but that might throw the balance out - not sure I'd want to play a kill team against (or with!) up to 60 guardsmen!

 

Additionally, are you using the normal rules for experience?  A point limit at the beginning of the campaign is a lot different from a point limit at the end, as by the end many of those points will be going to experienced specialists rather than more guys and gear.  A further thought is, how does xp work for elites?  Same points per level as in regular kill team?  If so, if you are allowing levelled up specialists, those factions with better elites will likely be stronger than those with mediocre ones.  To be fair, that's true in regular kill team as well as better models benefit more from a flat level price (for example, a levelled up deathwatch benefits more from being level 4 than does a guardsman), but elites is introducing a greater disparity in model quality.

 

However, if everyone going into it is aware of the rules, it could be fun - sometimes its fun to encourage players to take all the expensive stuff that they normally wouldn't.  Just be sure that players are aware how the higher cap may change the play experience including how viable a particular faction may be. 

 

[Panzer]

Boys before toys is the motto for pretty much anything warhammer even.

[Claws and Effect]

 

 

300p is pretty huge.

 

However, if everyone going into it is aware of the rules, it could be fun - sometimes its fun to encourage players to take all the expensive stuff that they normally wouldn't. Just be sure that players are aware how the higher cap may change the play experience including how viable a particular faction may be.

We settled on that points level because we specifically wanted people to bring anything they wanted to without having to leave other stuff out.

 

And because a Commander is mandatory for it, and most of them are 100 points or more if you want to advance them at all. Our idea is that the Commander represents the players themselves on the battlefield.

 

It was 350, but I pointed out that horde armies are going to hit model cap LONG before they hit points cap. Especially Guard.

 

I'm personally going to have a Raven Guard Commander that will be almost impossible to actually hit with shooting. I expect others to bring stuff equally ridiculous. In fact, we're actively encouraging it.

 

The other thing we considered is that this allows people to try out a bunch of new models at once and figure out which ones they like and which ones they don't.

 

I'll keep you guys posted on how insane it gets.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Looks like you've thought things through - should be a blast and I look forward to hearing what goes on.

[Quixus]

Wow, that is almost combat patrol. I wonder ho long a match will take with every model still being its own unit. Are transports in kill team?

[Panzer]

No vehicles in Kill Team, but it's also not needed as the battlefield is only 4'x4' and with usually quite a bit of terrain allowing for vertical movement (at least that's how it should be imo, I've seen Kill Team being played on planet bowling ball as well already... ).

[Claws and Effect]

Wow, that is almost combat patrol. I wonder ho long a match will take with every model still being its own unit. Are transports in kill team?

Depends on who the match is between.

 

Astartes vs Custodes will go pretty quick.

 

Guard vs Orks however.......

[Panzer]

Custodes vs Guardsmen will go pretty quick as well. Just sit on every objective and wait till the game is over. :D

[Disruptor_fe404]

No vehicles in Kill Team, but it's also not needed as the battlefield is only 4'x4' and with usually quite a bit of terrain allowing for vertical movement (at least that's how it should be imo, I've seen Kill Team being played on planet bowling ball as well already... ).

 

You play on 4'x4'? Damn, that's huge! 22"x30" is standard!

[Panzer]

 

No vehicles in Kill Team, but it's also not needed as the battlefield is only 4'x4' and with usually quite a bit of terrain allowing for vertical movement (at least that's how it should be imo, I've seen Kill Team being played on planet bowling ball as well already... ).

 

You play on 4'x4'? Damn, that's huge! 22"x30" is standard!

 

 

That was just out of memory and we often play with more than just two players anyway. It's been quite some time since I've played Kill Team to be fair. ^^

[Disruptor_fe404]

 

 

No vehicles in Kill Team, but it's also not needed as the battlefield is only 4'x4' and with usually quite a bit of terrain allowing for vertical movement (at least that's how it should be imo, I've seen Kill Team being played on planet bowling ball as well already... ).

 

You play on 4'x4'? Damn, that's huge! 22"x30" is standard!

 

 

That was just out of memory and we often play with more than just two players anyway. It's been quite some time since I've played Kill Team to be fair. ^^

 

 

It's an extra board for every pair of extra players, so with four it should be 30"x44". But if your boards are packed, it will probably play the same (though maybe some players might not affect each other at all). 

[Brother Eleysium]

Here's some follow up from my neck of the woods.

 

We played our 4 way 200 pt game that was a pretty much bring anything you want including Commanders. We had a Dark Angels player, a Grey Knight player, Death Guard, and finally myself with my Solar Watch Custodes. 

 

Our Grey Knight player and I have a friendly grudge over the Grey Knights not being as amazing as the Emperor's favorite sons the Custodes. ;)

So, my sole purpose was to pretty much try and eliminate him, and vice versa. After 3 rounds of him throwing everything he had at me, as well as take a lot of fire from the DA player, our Grey Knight player was pretty much eliminated and I had only lost a few wounds. I then cleaned up most of what the Death Guard and DA had left of each other for me. They both broke on turn 4, so we just called it there. At the end of the game my Leader with the Storm Shield had 1 wound left, my Combat Specialist Allarus Terminator was untouched, my Sniper Guardian with a Guardian Spear had 2 wounds left, and my two remaining non specialists had 2 wounds left. 

 

Custodes especially at the point value we were playing are going to be tough to handle. Especially an Allarus Terminator with a Castellan Axe, Miserocordia, and the Combat Specialist being thrown into the mix. I used the "From Golden Light" stratagem before the game, deep struck him in turn 2, and he absolutely wrecked everything he came across. 6 attacks in Melee(including the Miseracordia)is tough for anyone to handle. Even for T5 Death Guard. 

 

Ultimately it was a great game, and there was a lot of opportunity that my friends missed to focus fire on my Custodes, that they didn't capitalize, but they are just tough to handle IMO if they are battleforged. Definitely not unbeatable, but really tough. I think lots of massed shooting from Guard and or Tau would be rough to overcome for a standard Custodes list. 

[Berzul]

What would you say is the minimum relatively safe number of models to bring into a match?

As far as I can tell, Custodes are mostly 3-man teams. Other elites from the Adeptus Astartes and the Heretic Space Marines seem to be running around 4-6 models.

In my local meta noone really plays a horde faction. We have a lot of astartes, death guard and T'au (which would be the closest to a horde as you can get with those armies in KT), and teams usually go between 6 to 10 models. Now, with elites, my usual team of 7 tacticals is starting to shrink, as new weapons are brought in.

 

I am kind of concerned with playing teams of less than 7 models, but at the same time, bringing a super heavy hitting squad is kind of alluring...