Vanguard Tactica-thread.

[Claws and Effect]

I already have plans to run 3 units of Eliminators in a Spearhead with the Phobos Captain....along with 3 Vindicares in a Vanguard.

 

And some sniper Scouts.

 

If the dice gods smile on me I should be able to delete a couple characters on my first turn of shooting. If they aren't too tanky I should be able to remove them all by the end of turn 3 at the latest.

 

And if this tactic works out I expect to see a lot of it at tournaments, because it's relatively cheap to do overall.

[Hellebras]

 

I think looking at the killing power of Eliminators may be a bit of a red herring. Sure, you might pick off some support characters with them. But where I think they're going to shine is in sitting on a backfield objective. Stalker rifle Intercessors now seem all but redundant to me thanks to them. Three Eliminators are cheaper than five Intercessors. They have a 1+ save in cover, a marginally better gun (though fewer of them) than the Stalker bolt rifle, that extra six inches of range over a regular bolt rifle, and if needed they have Concealed Positions. All they really lose out on is Objective Secured, and I generally find that in games I win that doesn't matter on backfield squads. Without having run them yet, I think they have a lot of potential.

I feel like comparing Intercessors to Eliminators is a bit like comparing apples to oranges. Neither unit makes the other redundant.

 

While Eliminators have a list of advantages over Intercessors (as you rightly pointed out), there is no way to move away from the fact that Intercessors are Troops (with all that entails) and the Eliminators aren't. Intercessors also have a higher rate of fire / cost-ratio due to Beta-bolters, which vs. certain armies will make a huge difference.

 

13 Intercessors (221 pts) shoots 26 S4 AP1 shots.

9 Eliminators (216 pts) shoots on average 18 S4 AP- shots.

 

I suppose if you're looking for backfield campers and already have your Troop-selection filled out (or forego troops altogether), then Eliminators are a better pick overall, especially in Take All Comers-lists due to their flexibility. 

 

 

 

 

 

Right, and I still intend to run lots of Intercessors. They're a nice, surprisingly flexible Troops unit that happens to be pretty hard to put down for its cost. But as backfield campers, I think that Eliminators are at least on par with bolt rifle Intercessors and flat-out better than (already sort of mediocre by comparison to the newly-buffed bolt rifle) stalker rifle Intercessors.

[Schlitzaf]

So looking at the Vangaurd. I think my main thing will be changing and usage is my Vangaurd as basically acting as distraction carnfixes. To give my Crusader and other squads vital turn 1 to move into position. The ability to deny large section of the middle is only a bonus.

 

But more relavently? This seems obvious. But just to state it. They secure a landing zone for my own deep strikers. But deny enemy deep strike and movement in the middle zone they clear a landing zone for my deep strikers.

[sultansean]

I'm liking the Lietunant with the +1 to hit warlord trait standing in the backfiled with a big unit of Hellblasters. He can keep strikers away and help them perform. 

 

The captain looks like a pass, with no real close combat weapon. 

 

The Librarian looks good. I really like tenebrous curse, and I think Temporal corridor is good as well. 

 

Infiltrators need to come down in points to make me want to take them instead of scouts, as is they are twice as expensive as scouts with half the shots and the same number of wounds. 

 

Suppressors are not bad comparing them to an Auto-Cannon Dread, but sort of fill the same role as hellblasters and not as well.

 

Eliminators look good, and will likely see regular play for me. 

[CCE1981]

Unless your Hellblasters hug your lieutenant you aren't going to get that much effect from his deep strike area denial.  

[Lemondish]

I must be missing something. Are you guys actually talking about the Captain? Lt doesn't look like they have deep strike denial.

[mel_danes]

Cpt. has jammer, Lt. Has deepstrike. I think there is some confusion.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Lt. is the only other model from the box (along with the surpressors) that has gravchutes, with everyone else having concealed positions. Only Cpt. and the infiltrators have the scramblers.

[mel_danes]

So tried out 3 man sniper team this evening.

2 rounds of shooting, targeting Warboss on trike. 0 damage.

3rd round targeted a Tela'porta Deffdred, 1 wound.

Called the game at end of 3rd round. I was down so many VP by that point.

With 3 shots, S4 per turn not so scary. If I had a softer target, may have gotten more or of them.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm afraid Snipers in this game, aside from the Vindicare Assassin, are always going to struggle to kill anything bar low end characters unless taken in numbers so high that your list is skewed. It's actually for the best really as 3 Eliminators shouldn't be killing Abaddon anytime soon ;)

 

The rules for these Eliminators are something I'd like to have seen as additions to Scouts to boost them up for cheaper as ultimately these guys are fairly expensive for any more than 3 per army.

 

However, I think they can be useful if you use them to fire at the softer support characters - Librarians, Apothecaries, Ancients, Astra Millitarum characters, Warlocks, Genestealer Cult characters, Painboyz... all things that can go down to a turn or two of Eliminators fire. That would make a difference in critical situations.

 

As an example, I use Tigurius to boost the toughness of my Contemptor or Ironclad then impose a -1 to hit on something (could be those Victrix Guard Vanguard coming for you). If you point Eliminators at him I'd actually start to get a little nervous.

[Lemondish]

I'm afraid Snipers in this game, aside from the Vindicare Assassin, are always going to struggle to kill anything bar low end characters unless taken in numbers so high that your list is skewed. It's actually for the best really as 3 Eliminators shouldn't be killing Abaddon anytime soon ;)

 

The rules for these Eliminators are something I'd like to have seen as additions to Scouts to boost them up for cheaper as ultimately these guys are fairly expensive for any more than 3 per army.

 

However, I think they can be useful if you use them to fire at the softer support characters - Librarians, Apothecaries, Ancients, Astra Millitarum characters, Warlocks, Genestealer Cult characters, Painboyz... all things that can go down to a turn or two of Eliminators fire. That would make a difference in critical situations.

 

As an example, I use Tigurius to boost the toughness of my Contemptor or Ironclad then impose a -1 to hit on something (could be those Victrix Guard Vanguard coming for you). If you point Eliminators at him I'd actually start to get a little nervous.

You'd have to take 21 of them to reach 500 points, which I think is the earliest point by which you could realistically claim your list is "skewed" towards snipers. There's a quarter of a list.

 

Based on the maths, you'll statistically kill pretty much anything you aim at with that number over the first 3 turns even with half that number.

 

I'm having trouble identifying how a single sub 100 point unit in any army would be impactful in a 2000 point game. The fact that this is even expected skews everything.

[Captain Idaho]

Isn't the rule of 3 in place here so we can only take 3 squads of 3?

 

Which wouldn't be terrible but I'm not sold on Snipers unless you got plenty of other stuff going on.

 

I'm actually warm to Eliminators mind. 3 in my Classic Marines list wouldn't be terrible though to fit my theme I'd have to use Heresy power armour snipers. Of course.

[Marshal Reinhard]

I'm thinking eliminators might be best used to pick off units that survived shooting they "shouldn't have" mostly towards the lower end of the character spectrum

[MajorNese]

So tried out 3 man sniper team this evening.

2 rounds of shooting, targeting Warboss on trike. 0 damage.

3rd round targeted a Tela'porta Deffdred, 1 wound.

Called the game at end of 3rd round. I was down so many VP by that point.

With 3 shots, S4 per turn not so scary. If I had a softer target, may have gotten more or of them.

Tried 2 squads yesterday, as part of a 1000p list. Same result - S4 mostly didn't wound (biker characters had T5) and if it did, armour was still in place. Even killing a lone annoying scout failed due to still needing a 4+ to wound. And the phobos captain wasn't doing anything more.

 

Phobos libby worked great, now I'll focus on getting some suppressors game ready. Those should give some more reliable dakka...

[mel_danes]

I do a weekly game on Fridays, against Orks typically. Great opponent,our games are more beer and pretzels less WAAC.

My intention is to field the entire Vanguard suite, with support to get to 2000. Then see what they do.

This last game I deepstruck/outflanked 2 squads of Reivers, and 2 squads of Inceptors. My opponent was on the back foot on that flank immediately.

Also using the Indomitus Crusades strat my Interssesors blew an Ork bomber out of the sky with just bolt rifles, 40 shots is brutal next to a cpt and lt.

[sultansean]

Ugh I misread that and did not realize the LT did not have an omni-scrambler that makes him even more pointless. I guess I'll focus on the Librarian for Tenebrous curse and the eliminators for targeting support characters. 

[Claws and Effect]

Eliminators vs Eldar, Tau, or Guard characters should put in some work.

 

I'm not expecting to drop durable combat oriented characters with them. But the squishy force multiplier ones? Absolutely.

 

Farseers and Warlocks aren't that hard to bring down if you can shoot them. And the Eliminators ability to ignore line of sight will solve the biggest problem with shooting them.

 

There's also quite a bit of Tau in my local meta. And not all their characters are in suits.

[Panzer]

Don't count on T'au. The Fireblade has a wound more than other similarly squishy characters which on average requires one more round of shooting to get rid of him plus they have cheap bodyguards in form of drones.

[thewarriorhunter]

I think the Eliminators were designed for squishy characters and for some reason people decided that they're garbage because they can't drop Primarchs in a single round of shooting.

[Claws and Effect]

I think the Eliminators were designed for squishy characters and for some reason people decided that they're garbage because they can't drop Primarchs in a single round of shooting.

That does seem to be how it goes. If it's not overpowered it's immediately perceived as hot garbage.

[War Angel]

Executioners are only 24 points a model!!!! For 216 points you get 9..... the executioner round is going to put some damage on a model for sure.

[mel_danes]

Not 2 hours ago.

Squad of 3 Eliminators, moved down out of a low ruin to get line of sight.

So -1 to hit.

3 shots at a Mek in Mega-Armor, his Warboss.

2 misses, 1 hit, 6 on the wound roll. Mortal wound.

Fails his save.

D3 comes up 6. 3 more wounds.

1 shot kill.

We both went nuts.

Second time I've used them. This time I felt them. Great game.

[War Angel]

Not 2 hours ago.

Squad of 3 Eliminators, moved down out of a low ruin to get line of sight.

So -1 to hit.

3 shots at a Mek in Mega-Armor, his Warboss.

2 misses, 1 hit, 6 on the wound roll. Mortal wound.

Fails his save.

D3 comes up 6. 3 more wounds.

1 shot kill.

We both went nuts.

Second time I've used them. This time I felt them. Great game.

 

I think I know what I need to start building next.

[Dracos]

 

I think the Eliminators were designed for squishy characters and for some reason people decided that they're garbage because they can't drop Primarchs in a single round of shooting.

That does seem to be how it goes. If it's not overpowered it's immediately perceived as hot garbage.

 

 

Thus the Sons of Corax preach patient observation before judgement and action ;)

[MajorNese]

I've tried the phobos libby for the second time.

 

Mind Raid and Tenebrous Curse, vanguard WL trait with +1 to hit for a friendly unit, in an Urban Conquest game against harlequins. The WL trait was brilliant, as the mission rule already gave -1 to hit on anything (ranged), and harlies expanded that further. Also, worked every single turn.

 

The psychic powers were great too - one of my opponent's HQs was down to 4W when approaching my line. Two psychic powers later it was down to 2W despite being shielded, gave me a CP and was too slow to move out of range again. Next round it died from psyker-induced headache. Needless to say, the remaining HQ hid behind a building until end of game. In combination with Eliminators to take off the one or other remaining wound (even outside of LoS), it might be a useful combo.