Vanguard Tactica-thread.

[Claws and Effect]

 

 

 

I think the Eliminators were designed for squishy characters and for some reason people decided that they're garbage because they can't drop Primarchs in a single round of shooting.

That does seem to be how it goes. If it's not overpowered it's immediately perceived as hot garbage.

Thus the Sons of Corax preach patient observation before judgement and action ;)

:D

[Stoic Raptor]

Thus the Sons of Corax preach patient observation before judgement and action

 

I really love the look of the new models and the Eliminators are what I wanted a Primaris sniper to be.  So I've decided to make an all-Phobos battalion designed to take advantage of concealed positions, cloaks and jammers.  The style didn't seem to fit with my usual go-to of Space Wolves or Dark Angels or even Ultramarines, so I settled on Raven Guard.

 

But I really don't like painting black armor - it's not difficult per se, I just don't like the look.  So I went with the Raptors.  They're all about camouflage and the covert kill.  Looking forward to putting this all together and painting it and seeing if my "Screaming Eagles" can succeed at some covert ops.

[Tamiel]

I just had a game where I had a bunch of infiltrators, and my enemy was black legion with a havoc heavy list. We were playing "Hold Your Gains" (the narrative mission where the defenders have to hold the center of the board at the end of the game).

I was the attacker, so I had first turn guaranteed (this mission had no siezing). I put my infiltrators as aggressively as possible, used the "Dawn Raid" mission specific stratagem that makes it so that everyone has -1 to shoot on first turn, and then I rapid-fired + charged his blobs of Havocs on turn 1. These havocs were bubble wrapped with cultists, but I managed to kill enough cultists with bolterfire to make it to the havocs.

The havocs basically gave him zero value. We decided to continue the game later, but right now (after 1.5 turns) it looks like I'm going to win simply because I negated two entire havoc squads (with 8 auto cannons total) from doing anything. It was all thanks to the infiltrate rule giving me a guaranteed turn 1 charge. How useful all of this can be in a competitive matched play game is variable, but the fact that you can infiltrate and guaranteed tie up an enemy unit if you get first turn is pretty huge.

If you won't get first turn, you can couple this with the vanguard warlord trait that lets you redeploy your units before the first turn starts. It's cleverly worded so that it will apply if your enemy siezes or rolls higher than you and you fail to sieze. You can basically go "Oh crap, I won't be getting first turn this game. Better redeploy my infiltrators". In the future, this is what I might do with infiltrators.

 

EDIT: As a side note, one unit of three eliminators was enough to kill a chaos sorcerer on turn 1. I think I rolled pretty close to average with them (using the ammo that lets you do D3 damage, and if you roll a 6 you do mortal wounds).

[mel_danes]

I play against orks regularly, Tenebrous Curse is solid gold. Curse an approaching mob, Beta Bolter it to oblivion. The bonus mortal wound is nice, and can be used for sniping as has been mentioned.

I used "Target Priority" on a Cpt. parked with some Hellblasters, for never overheat. They did work.

[MajorNese]

If you won't get first turn, you can couple this with the vanguard warlord trait that lets you redeploy your units before the first turn starts. It's cleverly worded so that it will apply if your enemy siezes or rolls higher than you and you fail to sieze. You can basically go "Oh crap, I won't be getting first turn this game. Better redeploy my infiltrators". In the future, this is what I might do with infiltrators.

This might be a really powerful combo, first deploy the infiltrators to block other infiltrating units, then after seize happens deploy them in CC range. The problematic part is whenever you don't get first round, you cannot deploy these guys where truly needed. I'll have to try...

[Dracos]

I’ll double this post in the more appropriate sub-forum, but this seems to make Raven Guard’s Strike from the Shadows even less unique / useful than it was considering the form it takes after it got the nerf bat last BIG FAQ ... doesn’t it ?

[Hantheman]

I think the librarian is the most useful of the lot. I'm going to experiment with a DA, SW and Vanguard librarian Astartes Supreme Command detachment. The possibility for -4 to hit on one model or -3/-4 spread amounts enemy units is quite good for 300 points

[SkimaskMohawk]

EDIT: As a side note, one unit of three eliminators was enough to kill a chaos sorcerer on turn 1. I think I rolled pretty close to average with them (using the ammo that lets you do D3 damage, and if you roll a 6 you do mortal wounds).

 

 

Well, by themselves it's way above average. You only get 0.65 wounds past the save; meaning an average round of shooting you can expect to do 1.2 wound total.

 

Getting some sort of reroll or command pointing the damage can certainly help though

[Tamiel]

 

EDIT: As a side note, one unit of three eliminators was enough to kill a chaos sorcerer on turn 1. I think I rolled pretty close to average with them (using the ammo that lets you do D3 damage, and if you roll a 6 you do mortal wounds).

 

Well, by themselves it's way above average. You only get 0.65 wounds past the save; meaning an average round of shooting you can expect to do 1.2 wound total.

 

Getting some sort of reroll or command pointing the damage can certainly help though

 

Overall it was above average, but not by an insane amount. Mortis rounds do D3 damage per wound, and wound rolls of 6s give you an additional mortal wound on top of the damage you normally did. I successfully got 2 unsaved wounds on the enemy, one of them was a 6. So that mortal wound already brought the sorceror down to 3 wounds (they start with 4). Then I rolled my two damage dice and got a total of 3 damage.

[Panzer]

 

 

EDIT: As a side note, one unit of three eliminators was enough to kill a chaos sorcerer on turn 1. I think I rolled pretty close to average with them (using the ammo that lets you do D3 damage, and if you roll a 6 you do mortal wounds).

 

Well, by themselves it's way above average. You only get 0.65 wounds past the save; meaning an average round of shooting you can expect to do 1.2 wound total.

 

Getting some sort of reroll or command pointing the damage can certainly help though

 

Overall it was above average, but not by an insane amount. Mortis rounds do D3 damage per wound, and wound rolls of 6s give you an additional mortal wound on top of the damage you normally did. I successfully got 2 unsaved wounds on the enemy, one of them was a 6. So that mortal wound already brought the sorceror down to 3 wounds (they start with 4). Then I rolled my two damage dice and got a total of 3 damage.

 

 

Well that is a good chunk above average. More than you seem to realise. On average 3 shots wound a Sorcerer only once and then it still has to go through saves. Having two wounds go through and one of them even being a 6 for the extra mortal wound is extremely lucky.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea, as panzer said.

 

To break it down, the average is 2 hits, 1 wound, 0.66 successful, average of 2 on a d3. A mortal wound proccing has a 33% chance off of every successful wound roll, so with our math, we can see it takes an average of 3 turns to get one mortal wound.

 

You basically rolled 130% better than average lol

[thewarriorhunter]

I need to find an online math-hammer course. I read posts about it, it make sense, but I've never actually taken the time to do it myself.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I need to find an online math-hammer course. I read posts about it, it make sense, but I've never actually taken the time to do it myself.

 

It's really just converting a given roll into percents. A 4+ is 50%, 3+ 66% and so on.

 

Now I'm really bad at writing formulas to present the math the correct way, but I'll break it down for the Eliminator example.

 

3x0.66=1.98 (3 shots needing a 3+ to hit)

1.98x0.5=0.99 (those shots needing a 4+ to wound)

0.99x0.66=0.65 (the wound's chance to beat the modified save)

0.65x2=1.3 (the average roll on a dice is 3.5, so d3 Damage averages out to 2 per roll)

 

Now it's important to remember that dice are random by nature, but it can really help give you an idea of what to expect beforehand and maybe optimize target selection.

[Panzer]

 

I need to find an online math-hammer course. I read posts about it, it make sense, but I've never actually taken the time to do it myself.

 

It's really just converting a given roll into percents. A 4+ is 50%, 3+ 66% and so on.

 

Now I'm really bad at writing formulas to present the math the correct way, but I'll break it down for the Eliminator example.

 

3x0.66=1.98 (3 shots needing a 3+ to hit)

1.98x0.5=0.99 (those shots needing a 4+ to wound)

0.99x0.66=0.65 (the wound's chance to beat the modified save)

0.65x2=1.3 (the average roll on a dice is 3.5, so d3 Damage averages out to 2 per roll)

 

Now it's important to remember that dice are random by nature, but it can really help give you an idea of what to expect beforehand and maybe optimize target selection.

 

 

And if you aren't good with percentages you can just "think in d6". Need to hit on a 4+? Divide by 6 and multiply by 3 (4,5 and 6). Need to wound on a 5+? Divide by 6 and multiply by 2. Enemy has a 3+ save? Divide by 6 and multiply by 2 (1 and 2).

It's really not that complicated if you do it step by step. ;)

[thewarriorhunter]

I struggle to do any type of calculation in my head with relative speed. If I don't study math beforehand it takes me forever. What I should probably do is put together some type of excel sheet where I can mess around formulas and calculations. If I do that I'm sure it would help me to have a better idea going in and doing the work would help with my retention.

 

 

 

I need to find an online math-hammer course. I read posts about it, it make sense, but I've never actually taken the time to do it myself.

 

It's really just converting a given roll into percents. A 4+ is 50%, 3+ 66% and so on.

 

Now I'm really bad at writing formulas to present the math the correct way, but I'll break it down for the Eliminator example.

 

3x0.66=1.98 (3 shots needing a 3+ to hit)

1.98x0.5=0.99 (those shots needing a 4+ to wound)

0.99x0.66=0.65 (the wound's chance to beat the modified save)

0.65x2=1.3 (the average roll on a dice is 3.5, so d3 Damage averages out to 2 per roll)

 

Now it's important to remember that dice are random by nature, but it can really help give you an idea of what to expect beforehand and maybe optimize target selection.

 

 

So in this example the first line shows that only 1 shot is going to reliably hit, correct? Because you have to have a 'whole' hit get through, you can't have 0.98 of a hit go through.

 

So in the example you gave the 3 shots only have a 65% chance of causing a single wound?

[Panzer]

 

 

I need to find an online math-hammer course. I read posts about it, it make sense, but I've never actually taken the time to do it myself.

 

It's really just converting a given roll into percents. A 4+ is 50%, 3+ 66% and so on.

 

Now I'm really bad at writing formulas to present the math the correct way, but I'll break it down for the Eliminator example.

 

3x0.66=1.98 (3 shots needing a 3+ to hit)

1.98x0.5=0.99 (those shots needing a 4+ to wound)

0.99x0.66=0.65 (the wound's chance to beat the modified save)

0.65x2=1.3 (the average roll on a dice is 3.5, so d3 Damage averages out to 2 per roll)

 

Now it's important to remember that dice are random by nature, but it can really help give you an idea of what to expect beforehand and maybe optimize target selection.

 

 

So in this example the first line shows that only 1 shot is going to reliably hit, correct? Because you have to have a 'whole' hit get through, you can't have 0.98 of a hit go through.

 

So in the example you gave the 3 shots only have a 65% chance of causing a single wound?

 

It's actually 0.666666666666666[...] and not 0.66. 3 shots hitting on 3+ is really flat 2 hits on average. But keep in mind that the less dice you roll the more swingy results are going to be. The more dice you roll the closer you get to the average.

 

It's not a 65% chance of causing a single wound. It's that with 3 shots the average amount of wounds passing the armour save would be 0.65 (actually 0.666666666[...] but yeah) in this scenario so the average damage per 3 shot volley would be 1.3 (1.3333333333333[...]).

If we calculate it for a single shot (0.65/3) we would see that a single shot has a 21.666666666[...] (22.22222222222[...]) chance to get through the armour save in this scenario.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea, while you're multiplying it by the percentage to hit/wound/save, the end number isn't a precent, but how many wounds will be inflicted in the end. In the case of the eliminators, they don't have a 66% chance to do a wound; their output is 0.66 wounds per turn.

[momerathe]

If a unit of eliminators could reliably take out an enemy character in a single volley, they basically become a hard-counter to quite a few list compositions. That wouldn't be good game design either. Now where exactly you think the balance point lies is matter for debate... ;)

 

The other thing is that the statistical mean doesn't tell you everything; I haven't run the numbers yet but my guess is that the damage distribution is quite skewed, and "Hail Mary" shots may not be as unlikely as one might think. 

[Panzer]

If a unit of eliminators could reliably take out an enemy character in a single volley, they basically become a hard-counter to quite a few list compositions. That wouldn't be good game design either. Now where exactly you think the balance point lies is matter for debate...

 

Balance wasn't an argument here right now though. Now that you made it a topic though, I've to say that 3 turns to take out a character without invul on average is quite long considering that most games are already decided by that point anyway. Eliminators are good against really squishy characters, like REALLY squishy, but not against stuff like Marines or even tougher targets. At least not unless you want to spam multiple units.

[Jacques Corbin]

Tactica, fellow loyal humans, tactica, and y'know, manners. For all filthy traitor and xenos scum, please catch as many bolter and/or lasgun shot with your face as you can manage, as a courtesy to the entire galaxy. Thank you.

 

As for hard counters that Eliminators make for squishy Characters, compare that to pointing a unit of Suppressors at a Tau gunline. Given that each of the 3 can shoot a different unit, and they wound T3 on a 2+, and wound <T7 on a 3+, that is 2 or three units now unable to fire overwatch, of take advantage of For The Greater Good. I think that is the rule where they fire overwatch for other units.

 

I mean, not only that, but I can see myself adding adding most, if not all, of the Vanguard collection to my Raven Guard lists. I have been reluctant to add any of the Primaris to my collection thus far, because they just did not make sense to my asymmetrical warfare playstyle. But these new Vanguard primaris, make much more sense to me. Hell, I could almost see adding Reivers to my collection now as well.

 

Also, squishy character removal is good. Anything you can do to hobble your opponent is good. Sticking with Tau as an example, say buh-bye to Cadre Fireblades, Ethereals, and Firesight Marksmen, and also to squads of Pathfinders camping cover and shining their Markerlights at your units. By the Throne I DESPISE the filthy Tau and their new :cuss-ing Apostrophe!!!

 

What I like about these new units is that they can do alomst everything my Scouts currently can, but lack the option for a Heavy Bolter or a Missile Launcher, or any other Heavy Weapon option. A devastator Squad with 2 Heavy Bolters and 2 Missile Launchers starts the game with a target on it, but when you have 3 squads of Bolter and cloak Scouts with a Heavy Bolter each, then your opponent is reluctant to "waste points" on killing such a cheap unit, at least until it makes some real noise, or is holding an objective your opponent needs to score.

 

That said, I really like the Deep Strike denial, and board control the new Vanguard models offer. And it is a fun challenge, brewing up list ideas to get the best usage out of the new units, as opposed to :cuss-ing about how GW did not come out with the unit/models of my dreams.

[momerathe]

 

If a unit of eliminators could reliably take out an enemy character in a single volley, they basically become a hard-counter to quite a few list compositions. That wouldn't be good game design either. Now where exactly you think the balance point lies is matter for debate... ;)

 

Balance wasn't an argument here right now though. Now that you made it a topic though, I've to say that 3 turns to take out a character without invul on average is quite long considering that most games are already decided by that point anyway. Eliminators are good against really squishy characters, like REALLY squishy, but not against stuff like Marines or even tougher targets. At least not unless you want to spam multiple units.

If the codex lets you take them in units of six (like the other specialist primaris), stick a Phobos warlord with Target Priority with them and I think they'll do work; maybe not against beatstick characters, sure, but against support.

[Lemondish]

 

 

If a unit of eliminators could reliably take out an enemy character in a single volley, they basically become a hard-counter to quite a few list compositions. That wouldn't be good game design either. Now where exactly you think the balance point lies is matter for debate... ;)

 

Balance wasn't an argument here right now though. Now that you made it a topic though, I've to say that 3 turns to take out a character without invul on average is quite long considering that most games are already decided by that point anyway. Eliminators are good against really squishy characters, like REALLY squishy, but not against stuff like Marines or even tougher targets. At least not unless you want to spam multiple units.

If the codex lets you take them in units of six (like the other specialist primaris), stick a Phobos warlord with Target Priority with them and I think they'll do work; maybe not against beatstick characters, sure, but against support.

They'll still do work against beat stick characters. Sure, they may not put much damage on them in a round of shooting, but it'll certainly be nice to roll up against those beat sticks with your own counters when they're already wounded.

[FlamingDeth]

From a mathhammer standpoint sure, I guess you don't have to worry about eliminators. From a practical standpoint though you do have instances as above where a single squad will vaporize your sorcerer. Even of they can't take out a marine HQ each turn on statistically average rolls I have yet to play a game where every roll is statistically average. Their damage potential should make you take them into account when you position your guys and contemplate your target priority. I mean, if they take out your lynchpin buffmonster before you make your play...you knew it was possible.

 

For infiltrators I don't see overloading on them but a couple MSU squads to limit enemy deployment options seems fine. They're not so many points more than intersessors that you're going to break your list with a few of them and having your intersessors making up the bulk of your troops seems like a decent compromise when trying to build a balanced list.

[Subtleknife]

...that is 2 or three units now unable to fire overwatch, of take advantage of For The Greater Good. I think that is the rule where they fire overwatch for other units.

 

Pretty sure they can still use for the greater good even if the target cant overwatch. Rule only specifies when a unit declares a charge a unit in 6 can fire overwatch as if charged. So unless you cancel them too they can still greater good.

[Lemondish]

 

...that is 2 or three units now unable to fire overwatch, of take advantage of For The Greater Good. I think that is the rule where they fire overwatch for other units.

 

Pretty sure they can still use for the greater good even if the target cant overwatch. Rule only specifies when a unit declares a charge a unit in 6 can fire overwatch as if charged. So unless you cancel them too they can still greater good.

Doesn't need to be all or nothing. There's value in reducing the overwatch you'll take, even against Tau.