What's Working, Kin? Why?

[Lord Ragnarok]

So are our cheap wolves not a partial remedy to the horde opponents? And is our dex just not top tier or bottom of the barrel(I don’t get to play)? Not top tier I can handle but scraping the bottom is

[TiguriusX]

So are our cheap wolves not a partial remedy to the horde opponents? And is our dex just not top tier or bottom of the barrel(I don’t get to play)? Not top tier I can handle but scraping the bottom is

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

The cheap wolves are so fragile to shooting of all types they really dont offset anything sadly

[WolfLordZeev]

If the wolves were still 6 points then they would probably be an answer...as is you have to invest a fair amount to keep them alive that first turn. Though ive had some luck using a Deredeo with the Atomatic Pavaise to give them a 5++ then using Call of the storm to give them all -1 to be hit.

[PeteySödes]

Fenwolves' use totally depends on the format for me. If they have any sort of firststrike/firstblood over solo blood they are right out of my lists.

[Bulwyf]

So are our cheap wolves not a partial remedy to the horde opponents? And is our dex just not top tier or bottom of the barrel(I don’t get to play)? Not top tier I can handle but scraping the bottom is

 

We are tied with Grey Knights as the worst army in 8th and it really isn't even close. Overpriced units with bad stratagems, missing vital components that other armies get and mediocre psyker spells = a really, really bad army in 8th.

[Guest]

So are our cheap wolves not a partial remedy to the horde opponents? And is our dex just not top tier or bottom of the barrel(I don’t get to play)? Not top tier I can handle but scraping the bottom is

Couple weeks ago there was a competition guy talking about the SW codex. In short he said (and I am paraphrasing from memory) "The SW codex feels incomplete. They wrote everything up, tested it, balanced it, and the went "Oh crap those units aren't released yet" and proceeded to pull all those units out and published without rebalancing."

 

I am not a competitive player, running fluffy lists, but I take this as though are codex was balanced around other Primaris or some new features but they aren't released so now we sit crippled. Hopefully later in the year when we have more stuff the codex swings around to be more balanced. For now we sit at the bottom, and though we had a chapter approve that potentially fix some issues GW did not resolve them.

[Kassill]

I'll ask again, has anyone been playing with the Beta Bolter rules? It's a small thing but looks like it could help. 

Secondly, if you could change any one thing in our codex what would it be? On paper everything seems decent to me, but like Lord Ragnarok, I dont play very often and even when i do it's against the same 2 friends, so I haven't seen much of what other armies can do this edition that outshines us or anyone else. 

[Guest Triszin]

 

So are our cheap wolves not a partial remedy to the horde opponents? And is our dex just not top tier or bottom of the barrel(I don’t get to play)? Not top tier I can handle but scraping the bottom is

Couple weeks ago there was a competition guy talking about the SW codex. In short he said (and I am paraphrasing from memory) "The SW codex feels incomplete. They wrote everything up, tested it, balanced it, and the went "Oh crap those units aren't released yet" and proceeded to pull all those units out and published without rebalancing."

 

I am not a competitive player, running fluffy lists, but I take this as though are codex was balanced around other Primaris or some new features but they aren't released so now we sit crippled. Hopefully later in the year when we have more stuff the codex swings around to be more balanced. For now we sit at the bottom, and though we had a chapter approve that potentially fix some issues GW did not resolve them.

That's a really interesting take. And I agree with it.

[Bulwyf]

 

So are our cheap wolves not a partial remedy to the horde opponents? And is our dex just not top tier or bottom of the barrel(I don’t get to play)? Not top tier I can handle but scraping the bottom is

Couple weeks ago there was a competition guy talking about the SW codex. In short he said (and I am paraphrasing from memory) "The SW codex feels incomplete. They wrote everything up, tested it, balanced it, and the went "Oh crap those units aren't released yet" and proceeded to pull all those units out and published without rebalancing."

 

I am not a competitive player, running fluffy lists, but I take this as though are codex was balanced around other Primaris or some new features but they aren't released so now we sit crippled. Hopefully later in the year when we have more stuff the codex swings around to be more balanced. For now we sit at the bottom, and though we had a chapter approve that potentially fix some issues GW did not resolve them.

 

 

That scenario only makes sense if the missing units are Russ, 13th company and/or close combat focused primaris.

[PeteySödes]

I'll ask again, has anyone been playing with the Beta Bolter rules? It's a small thing but looks like it could help. 

 

Secondly, if you could change any one thing in our codex what would it be? On paper everything seems decent to me, but like Lord Ragnarok, I dont play very often and even when i do it's against the same 2 friends, so I haven't seen much of what other armies can do this edition that outshines us or anyone else. 

 

Yea I've been using them. They for sure help but....others do it so much better it hurts. I just came from Adepticon where i did pretty average for the ITC success rates for our dex. The most glaring match was against Deathwatch/BA/Knights. All the things we do well, mixed squads (WG with SS/SB), deployment shenanigans, tough distractions they do so much better. The reason I mention it though too is those things are the reason I tabled a really good Ork list round 2 that shot me up the rankings to play said nasty DW list where like i said he beat me with my own tools.

 

So for me what works currently:

Leviathans supported by a RP for chooser. This prevented a lot of pressure on my Longfangs and fire base. After T3 with the JPRP shoots up to claim obj or finish off squads with lightning.

Long Fangs of any flavor with at least 1ML/1HB. The ability to burn 1 or 2 CP to deal decent MW is huge for finishing off tough squads or just whittling down their big stuff.

SmashJarls. With a bit of planning these guys can dissuade charges or beat face.

Grey Hunters on the hunt. Pretty self explanatory, obj, decent amount of attacks with bolters and chainswords. A good insurance policy.

[Guest]

 

 

So are our cheap wolves not a partial remedy to the horde opponents? And is our dex just not top tier or bottom of the barrel(I don’t get to play)? Not top tier I can handle but scraping the bottom is

Couple weeks ago there was a competition guy talking about the SW codex. In short he said (and I am paraphrasing from memory) "The SW codex feels incomplete. They wrote everything up, tested it, balanced it, and the went "Oh crap those units aren't released yet" and proceeded to pull all those units out and published without rebalancing."

 

I am not a competitive player, running fluffy lists, but I take this as though are codex was balanced around other Primaris or some new features but they aren't released so now we sit crippled. Hopefully later in the year when we have more stuff the codex swings around to be more balanced. For now we sit at the bottom, and though we had a chapter approve that potentially fix some issues GW did not resolve them.

 

 

That scenario only makes sense if the missing units are Russ, 13th company and/or close combat focused primaris.

 

Which I think is what he was referring about. With Ashes of Prospero being "soft-canon" and the 13th actually not back because its not in codex, Russ being hinted as coming back, and lack of melee primaris these are all plausible. Much like how DA(?) has seemingly missing a terminator-primaris slot from my very crude understanding. 

[Guest Triszin]

- sorry phone thought I didn't post it

[The Unseen]

I don't play wolves, but my most common opponent, (my father) does, and I've picked up a lot. Couple dozen games against the same faction will do that, and I play the other melee focussed loyalist chapter, Blood Angels.

 

One thing I remember that worked really really well was 2 shield dreads screening murderclaws, with a rune priest using whatever strat it was to grant stuff within 6" -1 to be hit.

This was backed up by a wolf lord, and an iron priest both on wolves, along with 3 grey hunter squads in razors.

The only targets you give the opponent turn 1 to shoot are either dreads with -1 to hit and a 4++, or razorbacks that pop smoke for a -2.

 

Anti-infantry firepower is basically pissing in the wind, and negative to hit really hurts anti tank weapons with low ROF.

And if you charge that wall, all the characters in the back get to intervene, and the Lord with the russ armor makes one unit go last. As a guy running a melee centered army, that ability is freaking terrifying and honestly is way to good imo.

 

 

In addition to that, if your opponent is running a big centerpiece model for their fire support, like say a castellan, rune priests have that debuff with a 24" range with an additional -1 to hit penalty to one unit.

And trust me, a castellan hitting on a 5+ is notably less scary.

 

Wulfen seem good on paper, but never actually make it into combat, because transporting them is prohibitively expensive, and the return isn't worth paying for a stormwolf to get them there.

Your better off using characters screened by other stuff for heavy hitting melee, and twc if you want fairly durable (though the fact that twc still pay 10 pts for a stormshield is dumb, but still worth) fast moving assault unit.

A cheap and useful unit of them is 3 guys, hammer on the sarge, 2 other guys have stormshields and chainswords.

 

I don't think I should have to say "put thunder hammers on your characters", but I will anyway.

Ignoring the unwieldy penalty is obscene for anyone with 3 or more attacks.

 

If I'm remembering correctly and SW do get venerable dreads, I find their better than long fangs, as long fangs can't bring excess bodies and are incredibly fragile.

FW dreads are amazing at that, mortis contemptors with twin las are great.

 

Bjorn is good if you build around him, makes a ridiculously sturdy warlord

 

As much as it's *META* and possibly distasteful, a knight really helps any marine list, especially one that wants to run mechanized infantry, multi wound assault units like twc, and dreads like SW do.

Target priority becomes hell for the opponent.

I'd go crusader for support there, as wolves probably can't muster the CP to really fuel the castellan, since you'll want to use rotate ion shields a lot, and it costs 3 for the castellan, but just 1 for the crusader, and packs almost as much dakka.

[Bulwyf]

Stormwolves are great. If you play Wulfen and you should, that's the only way to go. I've been running my two Stormwolf list again with each one having a Wulfen TH/SS squad with wolf priest and rune priest for support. It is doing work again. Coming up the middle I can go with heavy dreds with Logan giving all misses rerolls and use the interceptors to camp objectives. I've really come to appreciate how excellent interceptors are at camping objectives with a 30 inch double tap if you don't move.

[NatBrannigan]

Used my new Wulfen and Stormwolf yesterday. Ouch! They hit like a damn truck! The stormwolf is then just very useful zooming around and blowing stuff up. We were using very friendly lists so there wasn't much that was a danger to said Stormwolf granted.

 

Thunderwolves with Frost swords did fairly well, still some fear from the last edition there so they get focused on more than they really should. Chopped up some Plague and normal Chaos marines before being brought down. The real star was the Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf though. Hardly a surprise but my word, what a beast. I'd given him Saga of the Wolfkin but he only killed 4 models in the game. Not sure it's as easy to get the kill 5 models thing activated as I though because you want to send him at things like Deamon Princes, might re-think that one. Happy with him killing 2 Plague Drones, then a Deamon Prince then a Plague Crawler nearly singlehandedly though!

[Karhedron]

I'll ask again, has anyone been playing with the Beta Bolter rules? It's a small thing but looks like it could help.

It does help but as you say, it is a small thing. Also, Grey Hunters are typically tooled up to work closer to the enemy than Tactical squads meaning we get less benefit from it than a Tac squad sitting on an objective. Just another reason to use Intercessors as Objective campers. Also we cannot buy ablative bolter guys for our Long Fangs who would benefit from this rule. You can do a few fun things like a cheap SB/SS WG Terminator as a pack Leader but it is more a gimmick than a strategy.

 

Secondly, if you could change any one thing in our codex what would it be? On paper everything seems decent to me, but like Lord Ragnarok, I don't play very often and even when i do it's against the same 2 friends, so I haven't seen much of what other armies can do this edition that outshines us or anyone else.

The Wolf list is not bad per-se. But it doesn't seem to have been designed with the kind of built-in synergy that recent codices like Genestealer Cults have. This is disappointing when you consider how they were going through development together. If you look at the way GSC Warlord traits, unit abilities and stratagems interlock to create detachment-level or army level strategies, you can see that we are just somewhat lacking. I think the Wolf Codex was actually finished some time and was held back for some reason. You can see that they realised things like our Warlord traits were weak when they had to errata them almost as soon as the book came out.

 

Don't get me wrong, we are not unplayable by any stretch and it is possible to build fluffy armies and have fun games. But if you play on the competitive tournament circuit, we definitely struggle against new synergistic codices or soup.

[Loshkins]

I've been having a lot of success with this list lately. ITC, highly competitive meta. Two straight wins against Imperial soup and the new chaos, GK/Custodes minor loss on points due to an error on my end, should have been a win tbh. Game coming up against Daemon soup in a few days. Just tinkering with little wargear options to dial it in now. Other than that just practicing the list, its pretty reliant on positioning to get the most out of it. 

Battalion

Bjorn 
RP 

Relic Contemptor 
Aggressors 
Ven Axe/shield 

5x Intercessors
5x Intercessors 
5x Intercessors 

 

Spearhead

WL

3x Eliminators
3x Eliminators 
Leviathan 
Leviathan

Requisition Sanctioned -1CP

[Karhedron]

With those 2 Leviathans (plus Bjorn), I would be tempted to consider an Iron Priest rather than a Wolf Priest. Primaris Marines are worth 8 points per wound for Intercessors up to 18 points per wound for Aggressors but you can only heal if you have a model left on 1 wound.

 

Bjorn is worth 30 points per wound and the Leviathans are 24-ish points per wound depending on weapons loadout. Patching up any of these big boys will easily make you points back. I like an IP as an attendent for Bjorn with Armour of Russ. 2+/4++ with a Hammer that hits on a 2+, rerolling 1s and can make an opponent strike last in combat. Great if your opponent tries to rush Bjorn with a fast killy unit like a Flyrant or Daemon.

[Loshkins]

With those 2 Leviathans (plus Bjorn), I would be tempted to consider an Iron Priest rather than a Wolf Priest. Primaris Marines are worth 8 points per wound for Intercessors up to 18 points per wound for Aggressors but you can only heal if you have a model left on 1 wound.

 

Bjorn is worth 30 points per wound and the Leviathans are 24-ish points per wound depending on weapons loadout. Patching up any of these big boys will easily make you points back. I like an IP as an attendent for Bjorn with Armour of Russ. 2+/4++ with a Hammer that hits on a 2+, rerolling 1s and can make an opponent strike last in combat. Great if your opponent tries to rush Bjorn with a fast killy unit like a Flyrant or Daemon.

There is no Wolf Priest in the list...its a Rune Priest with axe and AoR, but more importantly for Chooser of the slain. If they have a DS unit I bait a nice small pocket for them to be able to come down in and then blow the unit away with one of the Leviathans.  

[PeteySödes]

 

With those 2 Leviathans (plus Bjorn), I would be tempted to consider an Iron Priest rather than a Wolf Priest. Primaris Marines are worth 8 points per wound for Intercessors up to 18 points per wound for Aggressors but you can only heal if you have a model left on 1 wound.

 

Bjorn is worth 30 points per wound and the Leviathans are 24-ish points per wound depending on weapons loadout. Patching up any of these big boys will easily make you points back. I like an IP as an attendent for Bjorn with Armour of Russ. 2+/4++ with a Hammer that hits on a 2+, rerolling 1s and can make an opponent strike last in combat. Great if your opponent tries to rush Bjorn with a fast killy unit like a Flyrant or Daemon.

There is no Wolf Priest in the list...its a Rune Priest with axe and AoR, but more importantly for Chooser of the slain. If they have a DS unit I bait a nice small pocket for them to be able to come down in and then blow the unit away with one of the Leviathans.  

 

 

Ugh, just dont be nice like me and ask if "Thats your movement phase?" when youre about to 

Chooser some fools. Just do it. Had a guy totally bone me recently, "uuuuugh nnnnnnno, i'm not done" moved all his stuff. I was too tired to even call a judge.

[Loshkins]

 

 

With those 2 Leviathans (plus Bjorn), I would be tempted to consider an Iron Priest rather than a Wolf Priest. Primaris Marines are worth 8 points per wound for Intercessors up to 18 points per wound for Aggressors but you can only heal if you have a model left on 1 wound.

 

Bjorn is worth 30 points per wound and the Leviathans are 24-ish points per wound depending on weapons loadout. Patching up any of these big boys will easily make you points back. I like an IP as an attendent for Bjorn with Armour of Russ. 2+/4++ with a Hammer that hits on a 2+, rerolling 1s and can make an opponent strike last in combat. Great if your opponent tries to rush Bjorn with a fast killy unit like a Flyrant or Daemon.

There is no Wolf Priest in the list...its a Rune Priest with axe and AoR, but more importantly for Chooser of the slain. If they have a DS unit I bait a nice small pocket for them to be able to come down in and then blow the unit away with one of the Leviathans.  

 

 

Ugh, just dont be nice like me and ask if "Thats your movement phase?" when youre about to 

Chooser some fools. Just do it. Had a guy totally bone me recently, "uuuuugh nnnnnnno, i'm not done" moved all his stuff. I was too tired to even call a judge.

 

Never ask if its the end of a phase, that way they know something is up. 

[PeteySödes]

 

 

 

With those 2 Leviathans (plus Bjorn), I would be tempted to consider an Iron Priest rather than a Wolf Priest. Primaris Marines are worth 8 points per wound for Intercessors up to 18 points per wound for Aggressors but you can only heal if you have a model left on 1 wound.

 

Bjorn is worth 30 points per wound and the Leviathans are 24-ish points per wound depending on weapons loadout. Patching up any of these big boys will easily make you points back. I like an IP as an attendent for Bjorn with Armour of Russ. 2+/4++ with a Hammer that hits on a 2+, rerolling 1s and can make an opponent strike last in combat. Great if your opponent tries to rush Bjorn with a fast killy unit like a Flyrant or Daemon.

There is no Wolf Priest in the list...its a Rune Priest with axe and AoR, but more importantly for Chooser of the slain. If they have a DS unit I bait a nice small pocket for them to be able to come down in and then blow the unit away with one of the Leviathans.  

 

 

Ugh, just dont be nice like me and ask if "Thats your movement phase?" when youre about to 

Chooser some fools. Just do it. Had a guy totally bone me recently, "uuuuugh nnnnnnno, i'm not done" moved all his stuff. I was too tired to even call a judge.

 

Never ask if its the end of a phase, that way they know something is up. 

 

 

4th game of the day is my only excuse. Still sucked though lol.

[Karack Blackstone]

 

 

 

 

With those 2 Leviathans (plus Bjorn), I would be tempted to consider an Iron Priest rather than a Wolf Priest. Primaris Marines are worth 8 points per wound for Intercessors up to 18 points per wound for Aggressors but you can only heal if you have a model left on 1 wound.

 

Bjorn is worth 30 points per wound and the Leviathans are 24-ish points per wound depending on weapons loadout. Patching up any of these big boys will easily make you points back. I like an IP as an attendent for Bjorn with Armour of Russ. 2+/4++ with a Hammer that hits on a 2+, rerolling 1s and can make an opponent strike last in combat. Great if your opponent tries to rush Bjorn with a fast killy unit like a Flyrant or Daemon.

There is no Wolf Priest in the list...its a Rune Priest with axe and AoR, but more importantly for Chooser of the slain. If they have a DS unit I bait a nice small pocket for them to be able to come down in and then blow the unit away with one of the Leviathans.  

 

 

Ugh, just dont be nice like me and ask if "Thats your movement phase?" when youre about to 

Chooser some fools. Just do it. Had a guy totally bone me recently, "uuuuugh nnnnnnno, i'm not done" moved all his stuff. I was too tired to even call a judge.

 

Never ask if its the end of a phase, that way they know something is up. 

 

 

4th game of the day is my only excuse. Still sucked though lol.

 

 

Some people...

 

So, as far as the rest of the thread goes, if the missing units is why the Wolves book is so weak right now, it doesn't help GW much to kneejerk that badly, but it does make at least some sound sense.

 

The issue I find interesting is, what could those units be, overall? I've been trying to figure out a rebalance of WH40K for all books, but the issue is, outside of needing a new stat, Resilience from War of the Ring, and some points adjustments as a result, there's no really easy way to make the game fun as it once was. 8th is great, don't get me wrong, but it does still have a little room for improvement, and by a little, that can be a great deal of work to get things to what I personally think is, "just about right."

[Loshkins]

Bring back AV values. The real issue is that anything can hurt anything even when it shouldn't. So weight of fire just trumps all list builds through simple math and statistics. With AV values some of that will go away and you'll be back to making some interesting trade offs rather than 'Get as much Str 7 on the board as possible'

.