What's Working, Kin? Why?

[Wishful Thinker]

I just slapped storm shields on the back of their seats and molded double bolters over their headlights with blue-tack, admittedly a bit of effort to make them look nice but they will just pull off if Wolf Guard Bikers become an invalid unit.

[Dallas Drake]

Has any one tried infiltrators? I’m thinking of 3 x Smashlords and a jp Wolf Priest jumping up the board as 3 units of infiltrators deny DS and make them untargetable? Sounds better than wulfen dreads as they’re faster, can’t be shot at (3++ when are) and arguably better in melee.

[TiguriusX]

Has any one tried infiltrators? I’m thinking of 3 x Smashlords and a jp Wolf Priest jumping up the board as 3 units of infiltrators deny DS and make them untargetable? Sounds better than wulfen dreads as they’re faster, can’t be shot at (3++ when are) and arguably better in melee.

i just ran 3 infiltrators at a GT with a similar idea in mind. Also have 2 eliminators

 

IMHO not enough terrain for all 3 to be put in ideal locations. Have removed 2 of them for GH and intercessors to save points

 

When the board did have nice middle ruins or something it was awesome

[NightHowler]

Were the tables just really poorly set up? I’m going to the LVO this year, and from the pictures of previous years, it looks like the terrain has usually been pretty good at LVO. Still theory-crafting my list, so any info is useful.

[Dallas Drake]

 

Has any one tried infiltrators? I’m thinking of 3 x Smashlords and a jp Wolf Priest jumping up the board as 3 units of infiltrators deny DS and make them untargetable? Sounds better than wulfen dreads as they’re faster, can’t be shot at (3++ when are) and arguably better in melee.

i just ran 3 infiltrators at a GT with a similar idea in mind. Also have 2 eliminators

 

IMHO not enough terrain for all 3 to be put in ideal locations. Have removed 2 of them for GH and intercessors to save points

 

When the board did have nice middle ruins or something it was awesome

So with decent ruins/cover they work well. I might try 3x5 and a Phobos rune priest then. I’m hoping infiltrators come down in cost as right now they’re just too pricey for what they do. Still fancy making them work though.

[PeteySödes]

Im going to finish mine for the next ETL vow, but I haven’t used them yet. On paper though I think at least just one unit seems really useful, esp for us in the dark day of bad scouts.

[TiguriusX]

Has any one tried infiltrators? I’m thinking of 3 x Smashlords and a jp Wolf Priest jumping up the board as 3 units of infiltrators deny DS and make them untargetable? Sounds better than wulfen dreads as they’re faster, can’t be shot at (3++ when are) and arguably better in melee.

i just ran 3 infiltrators at a GT with a similar idea in mind. Also have 2 eliminators

IMHO not enough terrain for all 3 to be put in ideal locations. Have removed 2 of them for GH and intercessors to save points

When the board did have nice middle ruins or something it was awesome

So with decent ruins/cover they work well. I might try 3x5 and a Phobos rune priest then. I’m hoping infiltrators come down in cost as right now they’re just too pricey for what they do. Still fancy making them work though.

Here are the 5 tables I played on

I actually found my 3 man ELIMINATORS found the best hiding spots to stay alive.

In image 1 there is a 3 man squad hiding on the wall just past the leviathan. They lasted most of the game

In image 5 I was INSIDE those tower spires and lasted the entire game as well

The issue isn't just terrain but do you want them to live or die? I could have placed them all over but the deployment also put my opponent too close for comfort. My army is built on not giving up kills so I can snag kill more points so i didn't like that option. 3 infiltrators is a great theory craft unit but I struggled to find practical applications for them.

[TiguriusX]

Were the tables just really poorly set up? I’m going to the LVO this year, and from the pictures of previous years, it looks like the terrain has usually been pretty good at LVO. Still theory-crafting my list, so any info is useful.

 

I think LVO infiltrators will hold more value.  Basically ruins where they can't be shot are the ideal spot.  If you get the infiltrators in a ruin with all LOS blacking then the omniscramblers basically make them immune to alpha strike from either shooting or assault.  

 

What surprised me from the games I had were the eliminators proved more resilient.  They have a 1+ save in cover and ignored all kinds of indirect fire.  For the points you spend they are awesome

[Karhedron]

What surprised me from the games I had were the eliminators proved more resilient.  They have a 1+ save in cover and ignored all kinds of indirect fire.  For the points you spend they are awesome

Yes, I think Eliminators are a bit of a hidden gem in the Phobos range. I am looking forward to getting the full kit. The Apocalypse datasheets has them with the option to take "Las Fusils" which have a very good anti-tank profile so I am guessing the full multi-part kit will have a second weapon option. Infiltrating lascannons anyone?

[Yoyo ninja]

If those Lascannons can ignore line of sight too that would be amazing

[Dallas Drake]

Is there any value in melee dreads now? Shield & claw double flamer wulfen dread looks okay for the points but do they make combat and do they do enough damage? Also is Murderfang worth it? In the current meta I’m struggling to see how these would work or be better than shooting dreads.

[Karhedron]

Shield Dreads (particularly the Wulfen variety) are mostly used as bodyguards for Bjorn. A popular combo is 2 cheapish Wulfen Dreads with shields (your choice of axe or claw but I prefer Axes as they have 2 different profiles), Bjorn and an Iron Priest with Armour of Russ to keep them running and force charging enemies to strike last with Heroic Intervention.

 

Ven Dreads are tougher but slower and you pay a significant points premium. Fortunately a model can represent either the Wulfen or Ven dread so you can try out both options.

 

It is a formation that can be quite effective at pressurising your opponent as it will cause a lot of damage if it manages to charge. If you Advance T1, Wulfen Dreads should be in a position to charge on T2 (and can naturally reroll failed charges). You may even wish to Advance Bjorn. Although you miss out on a turn of shooting, it means the old guy will more likely be in position to charge on T2 and buff his wulfen buddies.

 

This lot comes to aruond 500 points for the Dreads (plus the Iron Priest if you take him) so is a significant investment. But it is one of those formations that your opponent will struggle to ignore. It will take a lot of firepower to put the Dreads down before they reach combat and you may be able to exploit that to keep the rest of your army alive.

 

The other option is to run single Axe/Shield Wulfen Dreads as distraction-carnifexes. They have just the right level of cheapness, durability and hitting power that your opponent will dedicate a disproportionate amount of firepower to stopping them.

[One Two Wolf]

Off the top of my head I think ven dreads xan pop smoke, but the wulfen dreads cannot. Worth considering maybe.

[PeteySödes]

Off the top of my head I think ven dreads xan pop smoke, but the wulfen dreads cannot. Worth considering maybe.

And FNP with 2+ WS. Is still prefer them over wulfen dreads. They’re better for protracted combat where you want them anyway.

[Karhedron]

 

Off the top of my head I think ven dreads xan pop smoke, but the wulfen dreads cannot. Worth considering maybe.

And FNP with 2+ WS. Is still prefer them over wulfen dreads. They’re better for protracted combat where you want them anyway.

 

Ven Dreads are 20 points more which is quite reasonable considering their boosted stats. However they have a 6" move (vs 8" for the Wulfen Dread) and cannot reroll charges.

 

Whilst the Ven Dread is undoubtedly better in combat, the Wulfen Dread is better at getting into combat. Even if you Advance on T1, the average threat range of its charge on Turn 2 is only 22.5" from your deployment zone. The average for a Wulfen Dread is 26.5" before you factor the charge reroll into account. This means the Wulfen Dread can reliably threaten a T2 charge, even if you opponent is still cowering in their DZ.

[TiguriusX]

when i run melee dreads i pick the wulfen dread.

 

it is a distraction carnifex that will likely die turn 1 or 2 regardless of what i do.

 

i figure i may as well save points and invest elsewhere.

[Dallas Drake]

So there’s some consensus that they work but more as distractions then. I do really like the idea of a few wulfen dreads, I think the extra move and reroll charges is probably too much of a draw for me, like someone said though alternating between wulfen and ven is easy.

If I’m going to run 2 units of wulfen in Stormwolfs then it may be best to have 2-3 wulfen dreads running forwards too to take the heat off the stormwolfs. Thanks guys!

[Karhedron]

If I’m going to run 2 units of wulfen in Stormwolfs then it may be best to have 2-3 wulfen dreads running forwards too to take the heat off the stormwolfs. Thanks guys!

This is definitely a good idea.

 

8th edition definitely supports target saturation so a that sounds like a good approach. Even if your opponents do not take the bait, a Wulfen Dread or two hitting their lines is going to leave a mark.

[Triszin]

question:

 

Has anyone tried combing Lukas teh trickster and phobos rune priest with hallucination?

-2 to enemy leadership?

 

its entirely situational though

[Dallas Drake]

question:

 

Has anyone tried combing Lukas teh trickster and phobos rune priest with hallucination?

-2 to enemy leadership?

 

its entirely situational though

No but I do think the Phobos RP is a definite pick for me. He can give Wulfen/Ven Dreads 10+D6” move & advance with his warlord trait. With Wulfen dreads rerolling charges I reckon turn 2 charges are manageable.

[Karack Blackstone]

After a bit of thought, I feel the need to ask.

 

What is not working? Why?

What is working, miraculously? Why?

 

For me, what's not working is the points and Wounds value for Astartes. I'd change up WH40K to add the Resilience stat to the game, give Astartes 2 R, 2 W, 1 A, and a Combat Knife in their base points value. If someone wants to get an Astartes a Chainsword, that'd be +1 pt. The rest of the model and its stats remain the same, points value becomes 14 base.

For Primaris, especially Intercessors, would be base Astartes statline, 2 A, 3 W, 2 R, BR, BP, CK for 16 pts.

 

The problem I've noticed thus far is likely not a new one. A 4 point Guard Infantry model is just as easy to kill at the end of the day as any Astartes line infantry thanks to the total lack of battlefield presence for each single C/SM PA model, let alone the value needed to make the game fun for everyone, and if the above were to be the baseline for a rework of the entire game, that'd rock. The problem would be getting vehicles correct, in terms of the Resilience value, R, for the bigger stuff. I guess I'd call it 1, base infantry, 2 Astartes outside of TDA and Land Speeders, Sentinels too. Rhinos and Dreadnoughts 3, Land Raiders and Leman Russes 4, Spartans and Fellblades 5, I'm not sure of 6's, but I think the idea sounds great. The issue is the crunch and the balance.

 

Still, what is working? Target saturation, and virtually no-win target priority choices. I play someone that forces me to typically pack in massive transport costs, and that's often the single greatest issue with the way Astartes play. Mobility is cost prohibitive, and a clearly lacking area on the table. The virtually useless feeling of having Astartes unable to take any halfway decent amount of firepower because they just fold too fast from being so many points and utterly just as easy to off as a Guardsman isn't helping either.

 

I wish I could articulate the problem I see and the solution I'm trying to formulate better. At least if I could do that much, people might be able to test my ideas across the board, and I'd know more about whether or not a numbers based crunch of, "All units and models are useful, just it varies, same and as much as points costs do per each unit and model respectively," that'd be great, yeah.

 

*Sigh...* Then there's getting there...

[USNCenturion]

I’d keep an eye on what comes out of the new Apocalypse mechanics. Past supplements like Cityfight and Cities of Death have had their new and unique rules carried over into a later edition of 40k proper. Current melee rules and the stratagem mechanics came from those.

 

The bolter drill update and the fact that all the old codices are now in line with 8th leads me to believe there will be love coming again for marines of all flavors.

 

Just stay away from my 4 point guardsmen :P

[Blackwinter]

The one thing that doesnt work with The Astartes is the armor. We pay for our 3+ armor protection but it is useless with this AP system. Because everyone (even the troops) have weapons that have AP values except the The Astartes (i mean the holy bolter). To solve this issue GW gave us cheapest storm shield to use with some our units but that doesnt solve the problem. Because we payed the initial point cost of 3+ and i pay again for 3++ too. And I dont want storm shield everywhere. Thats and HQ or termintor item. I want my armor keeps working.

 

An Astartes dying as easy as an ork is shame for us. 

[ORKILL]

I went 3-2 at Warzone Houston that put me in 24th place out of 80+. 


Xiphon
Storm Talon
Stormwolf

Phobos WGBL
Wolf Priest w/JP
Servitors
6x Wulfen 4x SS/TH
5x Wulfen 4x SS/TH

5x Wulfen 4x SS/TH

Wolf Lord On Bike SS/TH
Rune Priest on Bike (Warlord) 
WGBL on Bike TH SS/TH Armor of Russ

[mika_angelus]

I tried the new phobos lieutenant with a warlord trait that allows to give one unit within 6" +1 to hit rolls in shooting.

Paired him up with two units of long fangs with 5 plasma cannons each.

Worked like a charm.

The combination meant that I could deploy both units out of line of sight and then move and overcharge without much worry using wolf's eye stratagem on one unit and the warlord's ability on the other also having the benefit of hit and wound rerolls. Later when one of the units was being charged and in combat for a few rounds the other was shooting with a bs of 2 and rerolling ones.

 

This battle group went against a bloodthirster and an armiger and won, cleared their quarter of the battlefield and later helped bring down a chaos knight.

 

I was surprised how effective this combo is on the battlefield.