(UPDATED) A broad analysis of Space Marine Eliminators.

[IVIilitarus]

https://mega.nz/#!W09wEQ5K!a2pnFO1YRh1YfXEMfdocVpAY6URhFVybWfx5SPMKbiA

 

Instead of working on my actual research projects that will help me eat and make rent, I chose to do this instead, over the last two days.

 

The link goes to a 24-page long analysis of Space Marine Eliminator Squads. I was very interested in this unit when it released (more so than anything else in Shadowspear) but I had a number of questions about their effectiveness and possible uses.

 

The internet has been a little short on info about these models so I did the legwork myself and compiled a report that outlines the unit, its stats, its costs, return-on-investment in various situations and some of the quirks that make this unit interesting.

 

The report opens with stats and overviews. There is a qualitative analysis about the characteristics of Eliminators that cannot easily be quantified or are too flexible to calculate.

 

There is a quantitative analysis which has Eliminators shooting at a variety of hypothetical foes to determine number of wounds inflicted and their return on investment based on the damage they do to foes of different costs.

 

The report has concluding remarks, a few summaries and the last two sections provide guidelines for the use of Eliminator Squads and guidelines for dealing with them, with simple flow charts.

 

It is as dry and boring as this summary makes it sound.

[Volt]

 

https://mega.nz/#!exc1TQzR!AUvfwUgobavSwB2yYz0TsZvy32Ji-QL87mps2JACtuk

 

Instead of working on my actual research projects that will help me eat and make rent, I chose to do this instead, over the last two days.

 

The link goes to a 24-page long analysis of Space Marine Eliminator Squads. I was very interested in this unit when it released (more so than anything else in Shadowspear) but I had a number of questions about their effectiveness and possible uses.

 

The internet has been a little short on info about these models so I did the legwork myself and compiled a report that outlines the unit, its stats, its costs, return-on-investment in various situations and some of the quirks that make this unit interesting.

 

The report opens with stats and overviews. There is a qualitative analysis about the characteristics of Eliminators that cannot easily be quantified or are too flexible to calculate.

 

There is a quantitative analysis which has Eliminators shooting at a variety of hypothetical foes to determine number of wounds inflicted and their return on investment based on the damage they do to foes of different costs.

 

The report has concluding remarks, a few summaries and the last two sections provide guidelines for the use of Eliminator Squads and guidelines for dealing with them, with simple flow charts.

 

It is as dry and boring as this summary makes it sound.

 

You are a god OP, simply a god.  

[Exilyth]

*puts on reading glasses*

 

Well, then let's see what interesting information can be gained from this.

 

page 7: "Eliminators may be the cheapest Space Marine Heavy Support unit that actually has some usefulness and that can work heavily in your favour if you want to pay the

Heavy Support tax in a Battalion, or even fill a Brigade"

According to the BRB, heavy support on batallions is 0-3, so no tax to fill. *very minor nitpick*

 

page8 - quantitative analysis of chapter tactics

Summing up the chapter tactics most usefull for synergizing with Eliminators

• Raven guard: -1 to hit on a long ranged unit
• Salamanders: reroll one shot on a unit with few shots
• Ultramarines: allow falling back & firing if charged and unlock UM characters
• Blood Angels: +1 to wound can be usefull

While this part is only quantitative, the reasons given make sense.

 

page10ff - analysis of ROI for different ammunition types

Targets like Daemon Princes, GSC characters and gretchin are unfortunably absent from the analysis.

E.g. killing a GSC Magus (80pts base) would result in >100% return of investment (ROI).

 

Also, with no formula given for how the "wounds inflicted" is calculated, there's no way for other people to verify the results.

Ofc. we all know how the hit and wound mechanics work in WH40k, but a reader unfamiliar with 40k may have no clue.

 

Also, I can't shake the feeling that too much emphasis is put on the mortal wounds from executioner shells.

 

page17 - overview/table

page17ff - analysis

Ammunition Choice

TL;DR: According to the results as they are, Eliminators are best off using executioner rounds unless there's no LoS - which is when they should use mortis rounds.

 

page18

Comparing Eliminators to Leviathan Dreadnoughts and Predators is a bad choice imho. Comparing them to the basic intersessor and/or the autocannon suppressors would have resulted in much more interesting data.

 

page19 - analysis conclusion

page20 - flowchart

With the data given, the analysis makes sense, but as said above, a comparision against gretchin would have been interesting.

 

TL;DR of the Flowchart: "Use Eliminators as cheap filler or durable backfield objective holders. If you want a highly points-efficient murder machine, take a Leviathan Dreadnought instead."

 

Nicely sums up what Eliminators are usefull for and what not.

 

page 21ff

Gives a summary of tactical advice for using Eliminators.

 

page22ff

Gives a summary of tactical advice for fighting against Eliminators.

 

page24: If the opponent is not using Eliminators to support a wider strategy or mission objectives, prescribe them this document as mandatory reading

I'll certainly do.

 

 

All in all, it's a methodically sound examination of the role and effectiveness of Eliminators.

While the list of units used for comparision is non-exhaustive and the math used can not be verified from the document alone,

one can see that a lot of thought went into writing this.

I especially like that the analysis is meta-agnostic and that factors other than offensive capabilities are taken into consideration.

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

An actual, real analysis of a new Astartes unit which will arrive for me tomorrow. Exciting. It's nice that their role is pretty well confirmed so far in reading this, too (pick off infantry/HQs and cling onto objectives).

[Ishagu]

This is great stuff! I think most people should be reading your analysis. E-mail it to Frontline gaming, they can publish it on their site :-)

[Panzer]

It requires some proofreading tho.

For example the table on page 10 says that 3 Eliminators inflict 2 wounds on Ork Boyz with the Executioner rounds, however Ork Boyz only have 1 wound so they actually only inflict 1 wound despite the D1d3 stat which also changes the ROI to 4.5 which makes it equal to the Hyperfrag rounds instead of being clearly better.

Same goes for the numbers against the AM Infantry squad. 3 Eliminators with Executioner rounds only inflict 1.333 wounds against them, not 2.7. So the ROI would actually be 5.555 instead of 11.1 which would make it a worse choice than Hyperfrag rounds.

I haven't checked the rest but it's probably the same for other W1 targets which would explain why the Executioner rounds seem to be so much better than the Hyperfrag rounds even against chaff.

[IVIilitarus]

Thanks to all for the feedback! I'm updating and making corrections as I go along, but the download link will remain static so updated versions can be found at the same link.

 

*puts on reading glasses*

 

Well, then let's see what interesting information can be gained from this.

 

page 7: "Eliminators may be the cheapest Space Marine Heavy Support unit that actually has some usefulness and that can work heavily in your favour if you want to pay the

Heavy Support tax in a Battalion, or even fill a Brigade"

According to the BRB, heavy support on batallions is 0-3, so no tax to fill. *very minor nitpick*

 

page10ff - analysis of ROI for different ammunition types

Targets like Daemon Princes, GSC characters and gretchin are unfortunably absent from the analysis.

E.g. killing a GSC Magus (80pts base) would result in >100% return of investment (ROI).

 

Also, with no formula given for how the "wounds inflicted" is calculated, there's no way for other people to verify the results.

Ofc. we all know how the hit and wound mechanics work in WH40k, but a reader unfamiliar with 40k may have no clue.

 

Also, I can't shake the feeling that too much emphasis is put on the mortal wounds from executioner shells.

 

page17 - overview/table

page17ff - analysis

Ammunition Choice

TL;DR: According to the results as they are, Eliminators are best off using executioner rounds unless there's no LoS - which is when they should use mortis rounds.

 

page18

Comparing Eliminators to Leviathan Dreadnoughts and Predators is a bad choice imho. Comparing them to the basic intersessor and/or the autocannon suppressors would have resulted in much more interesting data.

 

page19 - analysis conclusion

page20 - flowchart

With the data given, the analysis makes sense, but as said above, a comparision against gretchin would have been interesting.

 

All in all, it's a methodically sound examination of the role and effectiveness of Eliminators.

While the list of units used for comparision is non-exhaustive and the math used can not be verified from the document alone,

one can see that a lot of thought went into writing this.

I especially like that the analysis is meta-agnostic and that factors other than offensive capabilities are taken into consideration.

I've corrected the Battalion issue. I didn't have the energy to provide a full formula of the calculations and settled for leaving links to my calculator for people to attempt to replicate and verify my results. The quantitative analysis against various targets was also limited by the sheer number of oft-used models on the table. 

 

Following corrections suggested by other users, my conclusions have actually changed. Hyperfrag rounds ARE optimal against GEQs and ork boyz compared to other ammunition types (but they're not actually efficient) in the big picture.

 

The ROI comparison units I chose were selected because they were popular Space Marine Heavy Support choices, even though some of them were very far in role, cost and stats from Eliminators. I wish I had the time to do a more comprehensive comparison with other infantry as well, or even Scouts.

 

This is great stuff! I think most people should be reading your analysis. E-mail it to Frontline gaming, they can publish it on their site :-)

I'll tweak it for a few more days based on feedback and then submit it.

 

It requires some proofreading tho.

For example the table on page 10 says that 3 Eliminators inflict 2 wounds on Ork Boyz with the Executioner rounds, however Ork Boyz only have 1 wound so they actually only inflict 1 wound despite the D1d3 stat which also changes the ROI to 4.5 which makes it equal to the Hyperfrag rounds instead of being clearly better.

Same goes for the numbers against the AM Infantry squad. 3 Eliminators with Executioner rounds only inflict 1.333 wounds against them, not 2.7. So the ROI would actually be 5.555 instead of 11.1 which would make it a worse choice than Hyperfrag rounds.

I haven't checked the rest but it's probably the same for other W1 targets which would explain why the Executioner rounds seem to be so much better than the Hyperfrag rounds even against chaff.

I've gone over the work again based on your advice and made considerable changes. Credit has been given. This change alters some of my conclusions and raises Hyperfrags from totally useless, to useful-as-intended, in some situations. Many thanks.

[MajorNese]

An interesting read, and it's great to see the feedback is being taken into account.

 

One thing would remain interesting to see IMHO:

It is mentioned that Mortis rounds have a +2 to hit rolls, which makes sense when moving the model. How does the effectiveness compare (in numbers) when moving over using the other ammo variants? Wounding is (except for MW) the same across all toughness values due to identical strength, so I guess the interesting part is how many wounds each ammo deals against different armour saves while moving. Mortis hits better but has poor AP, Hyperfrag/Executioner has more shots or AP/damage but hits worse. The difference might not be that big, but that's the only remaining open point for making the perfect ammo choice.

[Ishagu]

Imo the only real shortcoming of the unit is that it can't be bigger.

 

A Unit of 5 would be great.

[IVIilitarus]

An interesting read, and it's great to see the feedback is being taken into account.

 

One thing would remain interesting to see IMHO:

It is mentioned that Mortis rounds have a +2 to hit rolls, which makes sense when moving the model. How does the effectiveness compare (in numbers) when moving over using the other ammo variants? Wounding is (except for MW) the same across all toughness values due to identical strength, so I guess the interesting part is how many wounds each ammo deals against different armour saves while moving. Mortis hits better but has poor AP, Hyperfrag/Executioner has more shots or AP/damage but hits worse. The difference might not be that big, but that's the only remaining open point for making the perfect ammo choice.

 

That would be interesting, but I leave the exploration to someone else - my report is already very, very long and I don't have the time to add many new analyses to it.

[ShibeKing]

Imo the only real shortcoming of the unit is that it can't be bigger.

A Unit of 5 would be great.

I'm hoping SM codex V2 will address that.

[Captain Idaho]

I'll give this a read as when everyone complained about Eliminators I thought they looked tidy.

 

I am concerned that this is just going to go right over my head... mathematics is sorcery and I'm half a mind to just burn the whole place down and set back enlightenment by 1000 years!

[Jacques Corbin]

 

 

An interesting read, and it's great to see the feedback is being taken into account.

 

One thing would remain interesting to see IMHO:

It is mentioned that Mortis rounds have a +2 to hit rolls, which makes sense when moving the model. How does the effectiveness compare (in numbers) when moving over using the other ammo variants? Wounding is (except for MW) the same across all toughness values due to identical strength, so I guess the interesting part is how many wounds each ammo deals against different armour saves while moving. Mortis hits better but has poor AP, Hyperfrag/Executioner has more shots or AP/damage but hits worse. The difference might not be that big, but that's the only remaining open point for making the perfect ammo choice.

That would be interesting, but I leave the exploration to someone else - my report is already very, very long and I don't have the time to add many new analyses to it.

Somebody take this guy out for some beers! Awesome work!

[Marshal Reinhard]

I expect both eliminators and surpressors to be 3-6 once the actual kits hit.

[Gederas]

I expect both eliminators and surpressors to be 3-6 once the actual kits hit.

Almost definitely will be the case, since that's what happened with Inceptors when the full kit came out.

[Panzer]

I'll give this a read as when everyone complained about Eliminators I thought they looked tidy.

 

I am concerned that this is just going to go right over my head... mathematics is sorcery and I'm half a mind to just burn the whole place down and set back enlightenment by 1000 years!

 

For a second I thought you're a Black Templar, not an Ultramarine. :teehee:

[Marshal Reinhard]

I reject the notion that Black Templars are mathematically illiterate.

 

Ours is a cold calculated hatred.

[IVIilitarus]

I'll give this a read as when everyone complained about Eliminators I thought they looked tidy.

 

I am concerned that this is just going to go right over my head... mathematics is sorcery and I'm half a mind to just burn the whole place down and set back enlightenment by 1000 years!

 

Good research work is accessible. I wrote the work to be as straightforward as possible and there is a fair amount of repetition for emphasis. Even if you don't get some of the number-y aspects, most of the numbers are summarised in text form at some stage and there are extensive, detailed summaries and text descriptions. Even flowcharts. I think it's worth a read, not just because I wrote it.

[Captain Idaho]

Oh totally. I always push myself so enjoy such things.

 

Though if it is maths you ARE a sorcerer.

[chapter master 454]

Noting the idea of being good filler for heavy support is something I noticed as well. It is niche but in my current list, I am running 9 centurions but want to have them in a 6-3 configuration instead of 3-3-3. Reason being stratagem usage.

 

The problem is that in a spearhead detachment (which is maybe where your brain derped for you) you need 3 heavy supports. Certainly being a cheap heavy support choice makes them appealing as they can fill gaps that other units cannot and yet retain an element of effectiveness. To be fair, these marines would be annoying as sin to move if combined fully with an indomitable captain (always getting +2 to their armour save even in the open actually puts them on the same level of armour as the centurions!).

 

Not going to read the whole thing and taking paraphrases from here but you do gods work. Now I dare you to do the rest to the other shadowspear vanguard marines then do a 50 page write up on why tacticals need some love ;P

[CCE1981]

I don’t get anything with tour link.

[MajorNese]

Okay, I did some mathhammering for one squad of 3 moving and firing the different ammo versions at all types of targets, assuming that no further modificators and rerolls are used, Hyperfrag always does 2 shots instead of d3, and Eliminator does 2 damage instead of d3. Invuls are not included, cover can be read by going down 1 or 2 (camo cloak) lines for Eliminator/Hyperfrag - a scout with camo cloak would be 4+ armour on Mortis, 2+ armour for every other ammo.

 

 

 

Single wound targets:

-Hyperfrag wins out on enemies with no save or 6+, due to sheer number of shots

-Mortis is the best choice for lower toughness and some kind of armour save

-Eliminator is best for high armour save due to AP and MW, at which point it's more efficient to get the fewer hits through saves than to generate more hits

-against cover (even without camo), Mortis is always best until reaching T8

 

Against multiwound targets is simple - Eliminator is best. Even when factoring in camo cloaks.

[Panzer]

I hate to be like that but I think your numbers are still not quite right.

 

For example how can the ROI be different when the wounds inflicted is the same? It's not like the different sniper rounds cost differently (Plaguebearers and Genestealers).

 

Also something formatting-wise. Under the table on page 10 you gave a reference for 2 squads, however you don't use that reference anywhere as far as I can see. Not sure how you create the PDF but bookmarks (the menue on the left in Adobe Acrobat Reader) or at least an index would be great for navigation.

[IVIilitarus]

Okay, I did some mathhammering for one squad of 3 moving and firing the different ammo versions at all types of targets, assuming that no further modificators and rerolls are used, Hyperfrag always does 2 shots instead of d3, and Eliminator does 2 damage instead of d3. Invuls are not included, cover can be read by going down 1 or 2 (camo cloak) lines for Eliminator/Hyperfrag - a scout with camo cloak would be 4+ armour on Mortis, 2+ armour for every other ammo.

 

 

 

Single wound targets:

-Hyperfrag wins out on enemies with no save or 6+, due to sheer number of shots

-Mortis is the best choice for lower toughness and some kind of armour save

-Eliminator is best for high armour save due to AP and MW, at which point it's more efficient to get the fewer hits through saves than to generate more hits

-against cover (even without camo), Mortis is always best until reaching T8

 

Against multiwound targets is simple - Eliminator is best. Even when factoring in camo cloaks.

Well there's the math! Well done.

 

 

I hate to be like that but I think your numbers are still not quite right.

 

For example how can the ROI be different when the wounds inflicted is the same? It's not like the different sniper rounds cost differently (Plaguebearers and Genestealers).

 

Also something formatting-wise. Under the table on page 10 you gave a reference for 2 squads, however you don't use that reference anywhere as far as I can see. Not sure how you create the PDF but bookmarks (the menue on the left in Adobe Acrobat Reader) or at least an index would be great for navigation.

 

No problem, precision is important and correcting errors are a major part of this.

 

Yeah I removed the 2 Squads firing on Guardsmen but accidentally left a reference in. I'll rework the Plaguebearers and GS ones as well, will look into formatting too,

[IVIilitarus]

Whelp following all the feedback and especially the realisation that I was misinterpreting the results of the calculator (badly), in many cases, I've updated this extensively with corrections and multiple new analyses, including ROI analyses of Eliminators compared to other SM infantry against various targets, specialist targets and an ROI comparison between Eliminators and Scout Snipers. The document has been overhauled and the new link is up. Its conclusions are dramatically different.