The Siege of Terra: The Lost and the Damned

[Blindhamster]

No

[DarkChaplain]

[......]

 

Please stop...

[Roomsky]

I normally think power level dscussion is completely inane, buuuuuut I'm gonna side with Moonreaper on this one.

 

Daemon primarchs have several exploitable weaknesses that could give the loyalists a victory, but if we see a siege book wherin Khan outspeeds Daemon Fulgrim in a "fair" game of swordfight, or Dorn tanks something Morty couldn't and so forth, I'd be left scratching my head. The loyalists can pull some anti-warp :cussery, or outsmart their daemon brothers, or exploit the fact they've become incompetent commanders, and so forth. They can do what Pert did to Angron, if you'd like an example. But if a daemon primarch and a base primarch both sit down at full strength and arm wrestle, the loyalist shouldn't be winning.

[Nazguire]

I normally think power level dscussion is completely inane, buuuuuut I'm gonna side with Moonreaper on this one.

 

Daemon primarchs have several exploitable weaknesses that could give the loyalists a victory, but if we see a siege book wherin Khan outspeeds Daemon Fulgrim in a "fair" game of swordfight, or Dorn tanks something Morty couldn't and so forth, I'd be left scratching my head. The loyalists can pull some anti-warp :cussery, or outsmart their daemon brothers, or exploit the fact they've become incompetent commanders, and so forth. They can do what Pert did to Angron, if you'd like an example. But if a daemon primarch and a base primarch both sit down at full strength and arm wrestle, the loyalist shouldn't be winning.

 

 

Yeah, generally agreed.

 

40K isn't DragonBall Z, but it should not be controversial that one-on-one a Daemon Primarch will typically stomp a non-Daemon Primarch.  Otherwise, what's the point? What's the advantage?  There must be a significant increase in power and ability to take on Daemonhood.

 

Not saying that Khan could not beat Fulgrim or that Dorn could not out-tank Mortarion at times, but it should be the exception not the rule.

 

In respect of Moonreaper666's query about Abaddon - I think with Drachn'yen, yes, he would be able to fight with Guilliman - the sword is more than just a sword. However, without it, I still think Guiliman would kill him rather easily. 

 

Which winds back to the issue I have with Primarchs returning in 40K - it takes the focus away from the "mortals" who are trying to survive in a universe wrecked by the Gods before them.

[Dagoth Ur]

*Snip*

 

Listen, you had your thread with all these "questions" and "theories". We all remember how that went. Please stop polluting other threads with them as they have barely anything to do with anything that is being discussed.

[Indefragable]

Agreed.

 

1:1, apples-to-apples, all things being equal, daemon Primarchs should be “better” than non-daemon ones.

 

Which is what makes the St George slaying the dragon element of these stories that much more compelling.

[Kelborn]

 

 

*Snip*

Listen, you had your thread with all these "questions" and "theories". We all remember how that went. Please stop polluting other threads with them as they have barely anything to do with anything that is being discussed.

Fully agree.

We had this discussion several times now. It all comes down to pure speculation.

 

Back to topic: when will the hardback release be again?

[helterskelter]

I normally think power level dscussion is completely inane, buuuuuut I'm gonna side with Moonreaper on this one.

 

Daemon primarchs have several exploitable weaknesses that could give the loyalists a victory, but if we see a siege book wherin Khan outspeeds Daemon Fulgrim in a "fair" game of swordfight, or Dorn tanks something Morty couldn't and so forth, I'd be left scratching my head. The loyalists can pull some anti-warp :cussery, or outsmart their daemon brothers, or exploit the fact they've become incompetent commanders, and so forth. They can do what Pert did to Angron, if you'd like an example. But if a daemon primarch and a base primarch both sit down at full strength and arm wrestle, the loyalist shouldn't be winning.

Given the Khan fought, then massacred a bunch of massive Orks, made them run away and come out untouched because he was that peeved, seeing fulgrim is no longer his brother I'd be quite happy for Jaghatai to pull his arms off. Without fuss. After Fulgrim suitably upsets him.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

*Snip*

Listen, you had your thread with all these "questions" and "theories". We all remember how that went. Please stop polluting other threads with them as they have barely anything to do with anything that is being discussed.

Fully agree.

We had this discussion several times now. It all comes down to pure speculation.

 

Back to topic: when will the hardback release be again?

October, iirc. And someone mentioned a possible Christmas release for the LE of the First Wall.

[b1soul]

I think a "limit-break" principle is applicable to the primarchs. Their performance spikes under certain circumstances or with the right stimulus.

 

Khan just saw Giyahun his old comrade get brutally dispatched by giant Orks...and it massively triggered him into Taszanian Devil murder-mode

[Angel_of_Blood]

So a lot been discussed already, was a bit slow finishing this one. But I have to say, the conversation between Horus and Perturabo was quite possibly one of the worst dialogues I've ever read in Black Library novels. Honestly, that was just painful.

[m_r_parker]

So a lot been discussed already, was a bit slow finishing this one. But I have to say, the conversation between Horus and Perturabo was quite possibly one of the worst dialogues I've ever read in Black Library novels. Honestly, that was just painful.

 

I see you, and I raise you Horus and Russ in Wolfsbane.

Guy Haley has some strengths, but Primarch dialogue isn't one of them. Some of them in Lost and the Damned weren't too bad, but a few did feel particularly cheesy.

[Angel_of_Blood]

 

So a lot been discussed already, was a bit slow finishing this one. But I have to say, the conversation between Horus and Perturabo was quite possibly one of the worst dialogues I've ever read in Black Library novels. Honestly, that was just painful.

 

I see you, and I raise you Horus and Russ in Wolfsbane.

Guy Haley has some strengths, but Primarch dialogue isn't one of them. Some of them in Lost and the Damned weren't too bad, but a few did feel particularly cheesy.

 

 

Yeah that one wasn't great, but it was still somehow above the Horus/Perturabo conversation. Like if that whole passage didn't make out Perturabo to be one of the stupidest and most gullible Primarchs or even characters ever, then I don't know what would. He comes across as a complete :cussing moron, more egotistical than Fulgrim and a million times dumber than blood rage Angron. 

[Fedor]

 

I normally think power level dscussion is completely inane, buuuuuut I'm gonna side with Moonreaper on this one.

 

Daemon primarchs have several exploitable weaknesses that could give the loyalists a victory, but if we see a siege book wherin Khan outspeeds Daemon Fulgrim in a "fair" game of swordfight, or Dorn tanks something Morty couldn't and so forth, I'd be left scratching my head. The loyalists can pull some anti-warp :cussery, or outsmart their daemon brothers, or exploit the fact they've become incompetent commanders, and so forth. They can do what Pert did to Angron, if you'd like an example. But if a daemon primarch and a base primarch both sit down at full strength and arm wrestle, the loyalist shouldn't be winning.

Given the Khan fought, then massacred a bunch of massive Orks, made them run away and come out untouched because he was that peeved, seeing fulgrim is no longer his brother I'd be quite happy for Jaghatai to pull his arms off. Without fuss. After Fulgrim suitably upsets him.

 

 

And so Khan would tip into silly mary sue character. No doubt firing out some all knowing digs about the nature of chaos while he does so as well.

[b1soul]

Khan in his sublime state could probably match Fulgrim for a while before tiring and needing help

[helterskelter]

 

 

 

I normally think power level dscussion is completely inane, buuuuuut I'm gonna side with Moonreaper on this one.

 

Daemon primarchs have several exploitable weaknesses that could give the loyalists a victory, but if we see a siege book wherin Khan outspeeds Daemon Fulgrim in a "fair" game of swordfight, or Dorn tanks something Morty couldn't and so forth, I'd be left scratching my head. The loyalists can pull some anti-warp :cussery, or outsmart their daemon brothers, or exploit the fact they've become incompetent commanders, and so forth. They can do what Pert did to Angron, if you'd like an example. But if a daemon primarch and a base primarch both sit down at full strength and arm wrestle, the loyalist shouldn't be winning.

Given the Khan fought, then massacred a bunch of massive Orks, made them run away and come out untouched because he was that peeved, seeing fulgrim is no longer his brother I'd be quite happy for Jaghatai to pull his arms off. Without fuss. After Fulgrim suitably upsets him.

And so Khan would tip into silly mary sue character. No doubt firing out some all knowing digs about the nature of chaos while he does so as well.

At what point has he displayed those characteristics? Having him do great in that one particular fight does not mean he's suddenly mary sue. What I'm saying, as i really should be more direct, is that he's capable.

However vs daemon Mortarion it would be a different kettle of fish.

Also he kills quietly.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

I always thought that deamon accession was kinda like trading the gentle calm easy to harness energy of the soul and literally trading it for a massive dose of warp energy.

 

Extremely more powerful, yet entirely more volatile to both the "assended" or his would be enemy. Essentially i saw it as a deamon primarch would need to be a master of his own emotional state or at least have a ton of subconscious willpower to maintain their form (in real space at least).

 

 

So for me personally i always thought a good way to view it would be if you could unsettle or emotionally weaken a deamon primarch they may lose a grip on their tether to their power in the warp meaning you'd actually have a reverse scenario where in real space a regular primarch may actually have a chance of mulching one if their brothers into the ground.

[Fedor]

I think Wraight constructed him in a very meta "outside the universe" way that resulted in Khan being a character that knows better than almost everyone else other than the Emperor about the dangers of the main big bad ie. the gods and their ability to corrupt and destroy and is more savvy than aguably any other loyalist to the flaws of the imperium. None of his supposed flaws are really flaws on anywhere near the magnitude of the other primarchs not named Guilliman.

 

He did it well enough to give us a very good character that was grounded enough in the realities of 30k to make it work, i really like the Scars Heresy stuff and it's balanced out by the Scars as a legion takig lots of lumps, but it's a character type that it wouldn't take much for it to tip right over the edge into dull too good at everything territory, more so than most of the other primarchs. Fan servicey one-sided beatdowns of Daemon Primarchs are about the last place i want anyone to take the character.

 

He's already roasted Fulgrim and utterly destroyed Mortarion verbally, cutting right to the heart of his contradictions as a character, he definitely wasn't silent there. I think it would be more interesting if the next time he meets a Daemon Primarch, Mortarion in particular that he finds out you can be as all knowing, witty and correct about the dangers as you like, but you just might not be able to have a nice evenly matched swordfight with them anymore or easily stand at all against that sort of power. That he'll have to adapt and approach things in a different way to triumph, like Pert did with Angron, i'd prefer that to Fulgrim or Mortarion getting hacked up by someone activating super speed mode.

Edited July 26, 2019 by Fedor

[Fedor]

I always thought that deamon accession was kinda like trading the gentle calm easy to harness energy of the soul and literally trading it for a massive dose of warp energy.

 

Extremely more powerful, yet entirely more volatile to both the "assended" or his would be enemy. Essentially i saw it as a deamon primarch would need to be a master of his own emotional state or at least have a ton of subconscious willpower to maintain their form (in real space at least).

 

 

So for me personally i always thought a good way to view it would be if you could unsettle or emotionally weaken a deamon primarch they may lose a grip on their tether to their power in the warp meaning you'd actually have a reverse scenario where in real space a regular primarch may actually have a chance of mulching one if their brothers into the ground.

 

Yeah, the Daemon Primarch "power level" is no longer largely a constant like the normal version. That usually plays a big part in how they are defeated, like Perturabo against Angron or Sisters of Silence forcing Magnus away. Wading right into them in close combat is usually not smart, not without weakening them first.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Id just like to see some good old primarch on primarch violence. Angron and Sanguinuus, no deamon cobblers just go at it like two hungry seals over a fish......wait.

[mc warhammer]

I think Wraight constructed him in a very meta "outside the universe" way that resulted in Khan being a character that knows better than almost everyone else other than the Emperor about the dangers of the main big bad ie. the gods and their ability to corrupt and destroy and is more savvy than aguably any other loyalist to the flaws of the imperium. None of his supposed flaws are really flaws on anywhere near the magnitude of the other primarchs not named Guilliman.

 

He did it well enough to give us a very good character that was grounded enough in the realities of 30k to make it work, i really like the Scars Heresy stuff and it's balanced out by the Scars as a legion takig lots of lumps, but it's a character type that it wouldn't take much for it to tip right over the edge into dull too good at everything territory, more so than most of the other primarchs. Fan servicey one-sided beatdowns of Daemon Primarchs are about the last place i want anyone to take the character.

 

He's already roasted Fulgrim and utterly destroyed Mortarion verbally, cutting right to the heart of his contradictions as a character, he definitely wasn't silent there. I think it would be more interesting if the next time he meets a Daemon Primarch, Mortarion in particular that he finds out you can be as all knowing, witty and correct about the dangers as you like, but you just might not be able to have a nice evenly matched swordfight with them anymore or easily stand at all against that sort of power. That he'll have to adapt and approach things in a different way to triumph, like Pert did with Angron, i'd prefer that to Fulgrim or Mortarion getting hacked up by someone activating super speed mode.

hmmm i hear what you’re saying but he’s also so “correct” that he was the only loyalist primarch to almost join horus

[bluntblade]

The Khan is also responsible for keeping the Scars out behind enemy lines after they lose their initial advantage. His knowledge isn't inborn, he's essentially lucky in terms of the world he landed on and was wise enough to take its lore seriously.

[b1soul]

I think Wraight constructed him in a very meta "outside the universe" way that resulted in Khan being a character that knows better than almost everyone else other than the Emperor about the dangers of the main big bad ie. the gods and their ability to corrupt and destroy and is more savvy than aguably any other loyalist to the flaws of the imperium. None of his supposed flaws are really flaws on anywhere near the magnitude of the other primarchs not named Guilliman.

 

The Khan's flaws are pretty evident. He's not neurotically arrogant (and insecure) like Fulgrim, but he's one of those very proud types who tries to conceal it. It's clear that he gets offended when people dismiss him. Maybe not as fragile as Fulgrim, but he's nursing an ego as well. He strikes me as one who has armoured himself with the appearance of indifference but would still desires positive recognition. He's a bit like Perturabo in this regard. 

 

He's also very stubborn and set in his ways. He doesn't strike me as one who could objectively appraise the weaknesses of the Chogorian way and improve upon it. The Khan just does the Khan. In this aspect, he and his legion are resistant to change/growth. They like to fight in their preferred way. Fast and unpredictable...but over the course of the four-year campaign behind Traitor lines, this "unpredictability" became predictable . . . his feinting, striking, and withdrawing tactics got old. It looked like Horus, Perturabo, and Mortarion all adapted to his tactics, but he simply continued on as before. His hands-off style of leadership also led to his legion's schism in Scars, which bled his legion pretty badly. He's certainly not one of the more popular of the primarchs. He views himself as above the politics within the primarch brotherhood, but this leads him to be marginalised, he then tells himself he doesn't care, but he kinda does.  

 

The Khan's attitude toward the Warp is quite wise in retrospect, but that doesn't make him a Mary Sue. 

[nagashnee]

Page 205 has the Conqueror flagship of the world eaters as having taken part in the Thramas Crusade. Have i missed something in the lore or is this a mistake and should be the Shadow Crusade?

[helterskelter]

Page 205 has the Conqueror flagship of the world eaters as having taken part in the Thramas Crusade. Have i missed something in the lore or is this a mistake and should be the Shadow Crusade?

Should be the Shadow Crusade