Book 9: Your thoughts

[Master Sheol]

Now that book 8 Is out we can start to speculate about book 9

Will Be the right time for DA or FW Will delay them again (making for example another filler book)?

When do you expect this book to bè released?

 

My fear Is that FW Will make another filler book delaying further the First Legion to book 10

And if DA Will be in book 9 i don't expect It to be out before 2021

[Guest Metaliptica]

Was lost on a 4chan forum and someone posted some interesting info regarding book 9 and FW process during book 8. Here it is : 

 

- Starting around the kickoff for book 7, Forge World increased their playtesting efforts to include a few select non-FW/GW employees.
- In spite of that things turned pretty sour. The community backlash was felt pretty hard and FW decided to increase the number of external playtesters onwards to avoid a repeat.
- Some of the book 7 playtesters felt a little insulted because apparently Alan was extremely hermetic and many of their concerns were straight up ignored.
- In particular some of the shockingly obvious issues like the Custodes Tribune and Magnus S: D novas were voiced early on and Alan, who had final say on rules, supposedly never indicated interest in changing those.
- In the past this information would get drip fed to Lady Atia & Co, but there's been a lot of disinterest towards the Horus Heresy lately and they insist on sanitising out all the interesting details. So :cuss them, let's go.
Let's jump to book 8.
- Tony Cottrell did not want a repeat of book 7's bad press. For a while no one wanted to (or could?) take the lead writing and design position.
- This culminated in the scope of the book changing three times. Despite Tony trying to prevent a mess from happening, a mess happened.
- In turn this resulted in a lot of developed content being pushed back; a lot of playtesting time wasted on rules no longer intended for the release; editing that had to be redone multiple times.
- Speaking of editing, Forge World has a bad habit of first writing a unit's entire fluff and sketching out models before even testing any rules. The amount of wasted time per iteration of an idea (and between iterations) is colossal.
- The changing content of the book made Forge World very silent about details; but the greatly expanded number of playtesters made them feel somewhat detached and some of them blabbed about details. See: Lady Atia's rumors.
- Cue an extremely pissed Tony. In "retaliation" he ordered the Custodes list redone without any kind of external playtester input. Cue: bizarre decisions in the new list.

Concerning DA :
Current rules have only been slightly changed; same as BA and WS. Don't expect anything different (see the special units below though for some tweaks).
- Special shtick is access to 2 additional rites of war on top of the current ones: Dreadwing and Firewing. Justification for the extra rites compared to other legions is that each *wing is considerably more restrictive/specialized than typical legion rites. Other *wings are represented by existing rites.
- Three new units: Selenius automata, outriders and cataphractii.
Selenius Pattern Automata. At the time of playtesting the only unit that was considered 'done' rules and model-wise.
- Based on Domitar, but "even more divergent than the TS Castellax-Achea is to the Castellax".
- Made by lunar gene-cult, lacks the Cybernetica Cortex benefits/penalties. Augmented bio-components imitate some of the cortex functions. Weaker T and S than regular Domitar.
- Two weapons: Primary is a single large gun instead of the usual graviton hammers. Secondary is the Domitar missile rack but only has a weaker version of the Arcus' Neutron-flux warheads.
- Primary weapon is intended to break down defenses (unsurprisingly very effective against mechanicum-made tech, what a coincidence?!).
- The first temporarily disables flare shields, the second is a modified grey goo used against armoured ceramit , the last one is used against invulerable saves and has an increased effect against atomantic shielding techonology (contemptors).
Outriders and Cataphractii
- Both units were still being heavily edited at the time. As of 2.5~ months ago sculpting had not begun on these. RIP.
- Concept is that both units are heavily influenced by the player's selected rite. A way of making the DA unique units usable in multiple rites, rather than making units that only work with 1 rite.
- Each rite grants these units modified special rules and gear options. Ironwing and Ravenwing have been tweaked to include rules/gear for them.
- Outriders are especially made for Ravenwing and Dreadwing, Cataphractii are tailored for Dreadwing and Firewing.
Dark Mechanicum
- Combination of existing Mechanicum range with heretical modifications + range of new models (some of which are already sculpted but won't be featured in the book most likely).
- Must pick one "dark pursuit" (equivalent to taghmata arcanas) that the entire detachment conforms to and optionally one of the two unique FoCs.

Four pursuits available: warp, xenos, abhorrent intelligence, or corruption (anti-imperial tech).
Warp is focused on forging and fielding daemon engines and daemonic equipment for both IC and Characters.
- Possession (of a being) is seen as a weakness; all about controlling the warp vs being controlled by it e.g. daemon possessed troops, Gal Vorbak are disgusting).
- Daemon engine FoC stuff is easier to work with. Similar to Archimandrite in that this is the big expensive pursuit; you are forced to use the unique FoC with this (which rules out Zone Mortalis).
Xenos is about gene-crafting and use of alien tech.
- Big focus on modifying infantry and on equipping alternate munitions on vehicles and monstrous creatures.

Abhorrent intelligence is supposed to be the Cybernetica equivalent, high risk/high reward.
- Expanded version of the dark mechanicum cybertheurgy.
- Riskiest power whips the automata into a murderous rage making them charge the nearest units (friend or foe) until the end of the game with improved profile. In close combat models in a unit will sometimes try to kill each other.
- Can attempt to regain control of automata that go rogue from cybertheurgy.

- Corruption is focused on gadgets and tricks, e.g. sabotage, scrap code infections, assassination and so on.
- Lots of traps, reserve manipulation, and counterplays. One in particular can mess with machine spirits to force vehicles to repeat their previous turn's actions/targets/movement.
- Similar feel to Malagra in that this is the best specialization to build a close combat monster HQ.
Two unique FoCs to represent different stages of Dark Mechanicum ("schism with limited resources" and "full might of the forge world").
- Schism is intended for lower point games.
- The second is more flexible but has more mandatory elements.

Three daemon engine units: one in Elite, one in FA and one in HS.
- At this point in the Heresy daemon engines were entirely new; no standarized patterns. Every heretic magos would build something unique.
- Rules reflect that; similar to Daemons in that you have a lot of options available. You can recreate some of the FW daemon engines with these options. 
- Daemonic quirk: at start of battle roll d6 for each unit to determine what kind of daemon fuels the machine.
- 1-4 are the usual gods, 5 is "not Malal", 6 is undivided.
- Benefits are intended to be very minor, similar to TS cult arcana (excluding the raptora one, which they feel was a mistake that they can't change now without breaking TS armies).
- Daemons are batteries/cortex replacements, their allegiance is of no real concern.
- By default can only take 1 engine per slot and each slot requires another unit.
- E.g. can't buy 1 engine in HS until you already have 1 other HS unit. Unless your have the warp specialization.

 

This was posted by an anonymous source who get his info from "pissed" playtesters.
What do you guys think of this ?

[Marshal Rohr]

I read that thread. I’ll wait to see if it pans out. I’m hoping for a full A spread of units and rules that make your Taghmata Army intonations Dark Mechanicum and a list for Skitarii and Imperial Army.

[Spinsanity]

The recent talk in the N&R forum of a possible Lion/DA/Fallen boxset has me wondering if the I Legion getting pulled out of Book 8 into Book 9 might not be a result of GW putting a cap on DA reveals until they’ve had their go at it...

[Allart01]

We'll see.

Having no Deathwing-specific rules or gear would be a disappointment, personally speaking. Who cares about automatas... Even though they sound like a waac's dream. I would have preferred a paladins unit like the one mentioned in the Gret Wolf.

 

As for the book, I just want heraldry. Lots and lots of heraldry. Infrantry, tanks, different wings and orders... I'll be happy regardless of the rules.

[Charlo]

Not seen that list before but it fills me with Hope.

 

In terms of "Paladins" etc though, I'd rather we get the unique and cool stuff that's a bit out there. Otherwise we just end up with units like 40k. It's why I'm pleased they *tw* didn't do Sanguinary Guard.

[Fire Golem]

The recent talk in the N&R forum of a possible Lion/DA/Fallen boxset has me wondering if the I Legion getting pulled out of Book 8 into Book 9 might not be a result of GW putting a cap on DA reveals until they’ve had their go at it...

That would require that rumour to be true, though. Which is very dubious.

[Spinsanity]

 

The recent talk in the N&R forum of a possible Lion/DA/Fallen boxset has me wondering if the I Legion getting pulled out of Book 8 into Book 9 might not be a result of GW putting a cap on DA reveals until they’ve had their go at it...

That would require that rumour to be true, though. Which is very dubious.

Didn’t Inferno come out just after the release or reveal of Magnus, having been delayed for years beforehand?

[Fire Golem]

 

 

The recent talk in the N&R forum of a possible Lion/DA/Fallen boxset has me wondering if the I Legion getting pulled out of Book 8 into Book 9 might not be a result of GW putting a cap on DA reveals until they’ve had their go at it...

That would require that rumour to be true, though. Which is very dubious.

Didn’t Inferno come out just after the release or reveal of Magnus, having been delayed for years beforehand?

Pretty much every Forge World book ever has been delayed. It’s a FW thing, no need for conspiracy theories.

[rendingon1+]

I just hope these 4chn rumours will not be true.

1. I don't need more :cussing robots. Seeing how they handled Iron Circle, thanks, no, I'd rather have a unit I could actually use.

2. I don't know if FW actully playtests stuff they're writing rules for but WINGS RoWs are very diificult when it comes to list building and playing. I've had enough battles with RW protocols to say they are very good allies but as a primary - big no. Didn't even try IronWing because except for killer dreads other bonuses are so tiny in comparison to limitations.

3. I hope fluff will be composed in majority from Alan's old notes, reading Malevolence I can see definite decline in background quality (BA since I've only read it so far).

[Mango Polo]

I just hope these 4chn rumours will not be true.

1. I don't need more :cussing robots. Seeing how they handled Iron Circle, thanks, no, I'd rather have a unit I could actually use.

 

Who cares about automatas... Even though they sound like a waac's dream. 

 

You're getting robots, best make peace with it.

 

The only "reliable" (as far as FW can be reliable, which is very little) information are from the Weekender:

 

 

Work on Book 9 is underway and already some Dark Angel units are in playtesting.

 

The book will cover the Thramas Crusade and the campaign system will reflect the larger role of that.  All the campaigns in the Black Books so far cover legion warfare on a relatively low-scale. The Thramas Crusade is a full crusade that includes not just legionary war but also elements of titan legions, the Imperial Army and mechanicum.  The campaign rules will focus on the prosecution of war on this larger scale.

 

Book 9 will explore the First Legions background and the use of the Wings as a `doctrine of war` rather than a separate organisation.  This means that, like the way it is portrayed in the Heresy novels, that members of the different wings are spread amongst the companies and when needed, gather together to carry out their specialised mode of war.  However, the First will still use the basic legion army list but it was unclear on how the Wing will be used - although the obvious use will be through the use of Rites of War.

 

The book will also explore how the First Legion was used as a test-bed for astartes war and that the First have a basis in Terran equipment that is either not accessible or not widely used by the other legions.  Part of the reliance on Terran technology was also a fail-safe in case the Mechanicum got out of hand and the First would be deployed against them without a reliance on Martian technology. This includes the use of Terran battle-automata!

 

Finally, the book will include a full Dark Mechanicum army list and explore the levels of technology proscribed by the Emperor.

 

Emphasis mine.

[rendingon1+]

I don't know where are they taking their ideas from. These terrabots are rubbish, have no precedence in any source and are forced attempt to make DA "non obvious" and "differently than anyone expected". That's what I think. No matter if they're good ruleswise I will not like them unless I also get a special unit that is chivalry incarante, preferably with two handed swords lol. Then I will tolerate them.

[Master Sheol]

So they have to put into DA:

6 wings with their own rules

Several new units cause every Wing has specialized warfare based on certain units

Battle automata

Some Kind of strange weaponry cause the First has the best and older and experimental wargear

 

And adding on top of It book9 will the Dark Mechanicum list and the rules for the Thramas crusade that Is a HUGE War campaign

 

My Guess Is that this book Will require eons of time to be completed (my Guess Is 2021 at best maybe 2022) and could be a Total mess rule wise

 

One hopes the best for his Legion but about DA i Hope that at least the models Will be decent cause i have low expectations on the rules

 

About the fluff, well last books about the First Legion are very bad fluff wise and i don't expect FW to make a Better work

DA for GW and are now a Legion of cold hearted evil bastards and i don't think book 9 Will change that

 

I am curious about the Dark Mechanicum though cause all AdMech models are Simply brilliant and i want too see the traitor counterpart of the loyalist side

[Charlo]

I don't know where are they taking their ideas from. These terrabots are rubbish, have no precedence in any source and are forced attempt to make DA "non obvious" and "differently than anyone expected". That's what I think. No matter if they're good ruleswise I will not like them unless I also get a special unit that is chivalry incarante, preferably with two handed swords lol. Then I will tolerate them.

The DA are very different to 40k counterparts and their culture, organisation and tech are different too. Lots of other legions heresy gear "had no previous sources" as these books *are* the source.

 

I'd expand your view or else you may be setting yourself up for dissappointment. Not to mention you can make guys with swords easy using a command squad, vets or similar if need be. Calibanite power blades and Terranic Greatswords exist too to use to push that theme.

 

The Terra bots for the fluff perfectly, especially from a 1st Legion perspective, if not from a Calibanite Knights perspective.

[Marshal Rohr]

My money is one one special unit for calibanites and one special unit for terrans. Terrans could be something dark and destroyer like. Tactical squads with volkites and rad grenades or something like the disintegration rifle from the imperial space marine. The calibanites would be your sword and board breachers that get and extra attack in close combat and can take calibanite blades.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

The only "reliable" (as far as FW can be reliable, which is very little) information are from the Weekender:

 

 

Work on Book 9 is underway and already some Dark Angel units are in playtesting.

 

The book will cover the Thramas Crusade and the campaign system will reflect the larger role of that.  All the campaigns in the Black Books so far cover legion warfare on a relatively low-scale. The Thramas Crusade is a full crusade that includes not just legionary war but also elements of titan legions, the Imperial Army and mechanicum.  The campaign rules will focus on the prosecution of war on this larger scale.

 

Book 9 will explore the First Legions background and the use of the Wings as a `doctrine of war` rather than a separate organisation.  This means that, like the way it is portrayed in the Heresy novels, that members of the different wings are spread amongst the companies and when needed, gather together to carry out their specialised mode of war.  However, the First will still use the basic legion army list but it was unclear on how the Wing will be used - although the obvious use will be through the use of Rites of War.

 

The book will also explore how the First Legion was used as a test-bed for astartes war and that the First have a basis in Terran equipment that is either not accessible or not widely used by the other legions.  Part of the reliance on Terran technology was also a fail-safe in case the Mechanicum got out of hand and the First would be deployed against them without a reliance on Martian technology. This includes the use of Terran battle-automata!

 

Finally, the book will include a full Dark Mechanicum army list and explore the levels of technology proscribed by the Emperor.

 

Emphasis mine.

 

 

Eh? "All the campaigns in the Black Books so far cover legion warfare on a relatively low-scale". Looks at Massacre. Was FW drunk at the Weekender, or are they trying to claim Istvaan V is 'low scale'? Plus Prospero, Istvaan III, Calth etc. The Black Books haven't exactly been skirting the edges of the Heresy. That reads like a promotion by someone who hasn't actually looked at any of the 7/8 already published Black Books.

 

 

 

The DA are very different to 40k counterparts and their culture, organisation and tech are different too. Lots of other legions heresy gear "had no previous sources" as these books *are* the source.

 

 

That's what FW said about the Space Wolves too. Didn't really translate to the models or rules.

[Mango Polo]

So they have to put into DA:

6 wings with their own rules

Several new units cause every Wing has specialized warfare based on certain units

Battle automata

Some Kind of strange weaponry cause the First has the best and older and experimental wargear

 

My Guess Is that this book Will require eons of time to be completed (my Guess Is 2021 at best maybe 2022) and could be a Total mess rule wise

 

If you're expecting to get all that then you're going to be very, very disappointed. Every legion is looking at the same template for content more or less. There's also no point to Deathwing and Stormwing IMO considering that the hexagrammaton is the basis for the rites of war, and things like Pride of the Legion/Primarch's Chosen + Zone Mortalis represent the concepts well.

 

Anyway it's supposedly fairly underway and, unlike previous book, FW has a confidence level on its delivery:

 

Neil and Anuj are now free to focus entirely on the Heresy without having to also deal with 8th edition rules for 40k. This means that we should be seeing more regular releases - either model or rules. Book 9 is already being written and the team is hoping to have that released in 2020 as previously mentioned at Open Days and the 2019 Weekender.

[Rabidbunneh]

I'm really looking forwards to Dark Mechanicum as i've got a sizeable army of AI themed Cybernetica, I just hope the rumours posted by Metaliptica are accurate. I think Dark Angels having access to more rites is interesting, their legion specific robots sound more like support pieces than regular robots are.  Book 8 has been solid, much more so than Inferno, Hopefully this trend continues.

 

[Jareddm]

Eh? "All the campaigns in the Black Books so far cover legion warfare on a relatively low-scale". Looks at Massacre. Was FW drunk at the Weekender, or are they trying to claim Istvaan V is 'low scale'? Plus Prospero, Istvaan III, Calth etc. The Black Books haven't exactly been skirting the edges of the Heresy. That reads like a promotion by someone who hasn't actually looked at any of the 7/8 already published Black Books.

I don't believe they're referring to the events themselves but to the rules provided for running those events. Victory is Vengeance, while incredibly fun, isn't trying to capture the movements of whole army groups.

[Sandlemad]

Yeah the Thramas crusade was three years of sector-wide warfare, not admittedly apocalyptic single battles like Istvaan V or Paramar or Prospero. Small-scale probably isn't the right term but it's pretty clear what they mean. The only comparison in the black books so far is maybe the sum of the Coronid Deeps stuff in Conquest or the Chondax campaign in Malevolence, which suffered from the orks not getting the same detail.

 

And the groundwork for the First as a Terran testbed and the wider Imperial safeguarding of particular strands of Terran tech against the Mechanicum has been seeded in multiple sources for years now. 

[Fire Golem]

Yeah the Thramas crusade was three years of sector-wide warfare, not admittedly apocalyptic single battles like Istvaan V or Paramar or Prospero. Small-scale probably isn't the right term but it's pretty clear what they mean. The only comparison in the black books so far is maybe the sum of the Coronid Deeps stuff in Conquest or the Chondax campaign in Malevolence, which suffered from the orks not getting the same detail.

 

And the groundwork for the First as a Terran testbed and the wider Imperial safeguarding of particular strands of Terran tech against the Mechanicum has been seeded in multiple sources for years now.

 

And in my opinion is very cool, and one of the draws of the Dark Angels for me.

[depthcharge12]

It sounds lazy on FW’s side to not be making any new sculpts for us - from what the rumors are to be believed it’s just take your outriders and Cataphractii+1 and roll them in glue and the bitzbox.

 

But hey, we got crappy, less useful robots, so we’ve got that going for us, which is pretty good *insert caddy shack here* The robot gun sound interesting but other than that it was “take the crappiest admech bot, and make it worse, mkay.”

 

We used to joke about the DAs not getting shoulder pads lol but now we might not get new models.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Domitars are bad because of point costs; iron circle are pointed far too heavily for their defensive abilities, but those are still very good abilities. If they learn from their mistake the lunar doms could be very good.

 

And they're for sure getting new models. Praetors, contemptor, leviathans; and then their special units.

[TheDreadfulSagittary]

Why would you think, that DA will not get any new models? Every Legion so far got at least two unique units, I personally didn't think, that they would leave the First without any.
Well the concept of Terminators and Bikers as special unit is not that creative, I agree, but I like the Terran robot-tech. It might be enough for me to get at least a small ZM force worth of DAngels. 

[Allart01]

If we are getting Terminator and ground bikes as our special units, I would love to see them interact to recreate the Dark Angels gameplay of old - bikes rushing in for the Terminator teleport assault.

That would make me happy