Considering HH because I loathe 8th edition

[templargdt]

Gents-

 

I just can't stand 8th edition, or the "Cram as much into this reroll bubble as you can" edition.  Seriously, it's just dumb and I despise it.  So I'm considering the Horus Heresy because it still uses 7th edition rules, where things like trying to maneuver to get a side shot on weaker armor matter.  You know, tactics.  

Anyone else in this boat?  My concern is that HH appears to be dying with Alan Bligh passing away.

Thanks.

[Ishagu]

8th edition isn't about cramming as much as you can into a re roll bubble.

If you're not happy with your army play a different faction?

[Guest]

I would discuss this with a HH player about it. Seems like you have "grass is greener on the other side" syndrome. I don't think HH is all tactics and there is some meta there. Even in real life war games there is a "meta", of stealth+long range right now.

 

What if HH changes for to a playstyle you don't like and 9th Ed is great, will you swap again?

[halfstrain]

I got you, dawg.

 

In my group, we are interested in a lot of various editions (5th, 6th, 7th & 8th 40k) and 6th, 7th and 8th Fantasy along with Sigmar. 2nd, 3rd, 3.5 and 5th Edition D&D, etc.

 

I think players need to remind themselves that playing a given edition of these games isn't a mutually exclusive thing. You can still play older versions of games. People do it with video games and table top RPG's all the time with no stigma. Wargames are a little different by default, but the idea is the same - you just have to confirm with everyone, which can be a tricky thing because a lot of players will love and worship only the newest thing. Problem with the newest thing is it eventually becomes the old thing and all the people who raged about you not liking it will end up accidentally agreeing with you because something newer is on the horizon.

 

Happens all the time and is archived on all message boards. When 7th was current, everyone fanatically defended janky things like Formations, but as soon as 8th dropped, that same crowd completely trashed 7th for janky things like Formations. You'll see the same sentiment with Super Soups and things like detachment spam = CP (which is functionally the same thing as Formations, just more open to abuse). Folks will die on those hills for now, but will throw it away in favor of whatever is new when the time comes.

 

And that's fine. We all play the game for different reasons and no one is wrong. But we're not just players, and fans. We're also consumers. And we can decide how we want to enjoy a game that most of us have spent $1000+ and another 1000+ hours on.

 

Personally, I think GW should organize Warhammer (40k & Fantasy) like Wizards handles Magic; the Gathering (MTG) - formats. It would alleviate and "officialize" the idea of playing previous rulesets. In MTG for example, a lot of players play the format which uses the newest sets, but a lot of players also play formats which haven't rendered their older collections invalid. In Warhammer, your models usually aren't rendered invalid (Bretonnia), but things like load-outs, unit sizes and certainly army/unit rules can change to really make portions of of your collection unreasonable, which has a similiar effect. Wizards does what they do because their consumer base wouldn't tolerate otherwise. As GW consumers, why should we tolerate otherwise?

 

It doesn't matter which edition we think is better or worse. Remind people you play with that it's sometimes okay to enjoy the game the way we used to.

 

This was a lot of ramble and I apologize. It's just something I've heard a lot of players say. I enjoy 8th, and Age of Sigmar, but I also enjoy the previous systems of those games. So did they. So what's the hangup? Let's just play those versions when we feel like it.  Here lately, we've been playing 7th 40k with no Formations and it's been great fun. Sure, there's some janky things even without Formations, but every edition of this game has it's own flavor of pants-on-head crap.

 

I truly hope you are able to recapture the fun you're looking for. We have. If you are in the Pacific NW, we'd be more than happy to receive you!

 

Good luck!

[battle captain corpus]

Ok......my two imperial credits...

 

8th edition: not every game is for everyone. 8th isn't as complex or as intricate as Age of Darkness mk.1 ( try not to think of it as 7th edt+ etc :D ) some say, me included. Of course you could try another faction but chances are if your finding 8th challenging to enjoy them this may not work.

 

Age of Darkness mk.1: Alan's passing had an impact naturally, but believe me, the Horus Heresy scene is HUGE! There is no evidence of it dying off, if anything it's a wonderful, expanding, dynamic and vibrant community. It's very similar to many of the "historical" gaming communities in that it is essentially that, just future....historical....you get what I mean!

 

Some do struggle to find opponents in remoter areas, this can be true of any game though. And this is also where the Bolter & Chainsword steps up to. We have your back Brother whichever direction you take your hobby in!

 

Have a look below on the link to our Horus Heresy sub forum. I'm always about if you want a chat to and there's tonnes of us who'll be more than happy to discuss Legions Etc etc. :)

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/forum/35-the-horus-heresy/

 

Whichever direction you choose happy hobbying!

 

BCC

[Imren]

Welcome to the heresy train! Assuming you're a 40k player and don't know much about 30k, I figured I'll tell you some about my experience from 30k:

 

The 30k community is quite hobby-and-fluff-centric community were the gameplay is not the main aspect of the hobby. To enjoy respect and genuine acceptance in the community you will have to build and paint your army to a somewhat "good standard". This is not a big problem if you already do paint your models (you might need to learn some painting schemes and techniques). but for many 40k players that are happy with just building the models and perhaps priming them and drybrusing a couple of colours the 30k community can seem somewhat "elitist" due to the implicit expectation of painting your army to a certain standard. You can witness this if you go to events and tournaments. Many 40k events are quite chill will painting requirements (grey plastic armies seen on occasion) but if you witness a random 30k event you will see that not only are participants quite stringent with the paintjob, the modeling is done adhereing to wysiwyg and armour/wargear representing the 30k times.

30k can be quite expensive if you go for vehicle and walker heavy army since there is no practical alternatives to Forgeworld models. Exception to this is infantry heavy space marine legion armies, these can be built relatively low cost with GW plastic alternatives (thinking of those that came with Calth and Prospero boxes), and there are tonnes of good 3rd party supplies of infantry wargear and armour models (i.e. Kromlech and Pop goes the monkey).

You will most likely encounter resin models that need more preparations than plastic before priming.

Gameplay-wise 30k is somewhat more level and equal than 40k (custodes and maybe mechanicum is an exception to this, those are strong armies). Since the majority of players choose to build and paint a legion list and the legions have access to almost the exact same wargear and units so all legion players can choose to build very powerful army lists or not, but most don't. WAAC-mentality is very much frowned upon in the 30k community and you will not make many friends if you field an army were majority of the units are very powerful ones. Competetiveness and trying to find a way to make a list that "breaks all others" is generally not accepted at all. Few 30k tournaments reward participants for winning the games. They are more about playing a narrative. Which brings me to the next point:

30k community is very fluff driven, average 30k player feels a genuine interest in the fluff and have read at least the first 3-5 horus heresy novels by black library, and/or read the fluff in the black books. People build army lists related to events in the book. For example, if you build a very tank heavy White Scars army people will frown upon it.

30k players can be quite strict with modeling, they rather use 30k plasma/melta guns than 40k ones, even if the difference is quite small. Same with Rhinos and Land Raiders. Only MkII to MkV or perhaps MkVI armour on your power armoured infantry is socially accepted.

So to summarize:
30k players are generally very keen and ambitious modelers and painters and LOVE the fluff! They are way less keen to win games and tournaments. 30k community is pretty much like a historical wargames community where lot of effort is put to make sure models correspond to the (hi)story.

So you are strongly advised  to consider putting down the time, effort and $$$ to read the books, build and paint your army as per the fluff to get most out of the 30k hobby socially.

If you start building a 30k army, expect hours and hours of building and painting before playing.
 

[Halandaar]

I just can't stand 8th edition, or the "Cram as much into this reroll bubble as you can" edition.

 

where things like trying to maneuver to get a side shot on weaker armor matter.  You know, tactics. 

 

So, move unit to certain position relative to another is "dumb" in 8th edition, but move unit to certain position relative to another in 7th is "tactics" ? Hmm.

 

Facetiousness aside, I have literally never seen an 8th Edition game where the primary concern for victory is "cramming" re-rolls. Stacking different re-rolls onto units to boost with big stratagems? Yeah maybe. But it's a combination of things that require significant resource investment (points and CP), as well as positional play. 

 

7th Edition (and by extension, the Age of Darkness rules) have issues of their own, not least Hull Points, which counteracts the positional anti-tank play you seem keen on by ensuring you can blow up anything providing you can glance it enough times. And remember, there are a solid amount of Heresy players who actually want it moved to 8th Edition rules anyway and as far as we know, this was actually the plan.

 

There are many good reasons to get into Heresy, most of which are outlined in the posts above, but a "grass is greener" view of how the rules work isn't one of them.

[Marshal Rohr]

Halandaar covers a lot of the problems with the Age of Darkness rules. There is never a scenario where an infantry rifle or machine gun should damage an armored vehicle to destruction. Heresy is best played when you intentionally restrict certain things to prioritize others, like the Zone Mortalis and Centurion rulesets, but those require prior planning and coordination and aren't suited to pick up games. Age of Darkness has some glaring balance issues, but far fewer issues than 8th Edition. 

[sarabando]

you get volkite weapons what other reason do you need to play?

[Ishagu]

I must say that TC's hyperbolic original statement indicates a limited time spent playing 40k.

 

There's nothing wrong with the HH, however games are generally less easy to arrange as it's less popular. This does vary and it could be the number 1 game at his local.

I'm simply not convinced about his premise for the switch.

[Imren]

Surely this issue is a matter of one's personal experience of the local community. if you play in an social environment were majority of players put priority in power gaming and trying out lists for competetive tournaments and try to rank there as high as possible, and to do so spend less time and effort on the hobbying aspect, then yes, this will weed out people that are more interested in hobbying and having fun games.

 

I can see the dull boredom of netlisting and coming up with a WAAC list that played according to a figured out algoritm and buff combos outright takes out most other army lists wihile being very forgiving to tactical mistakes. That is the way 40k is played on the top tables of most large 40k tournaments and I can see that many 40k players that strive to achieve top table rankings play that way. I suspect that style is simply way less accepted in the majority of 30k local communities.

 

However, of course does that not rule out that there are 40k communities that socially don't accept such play styles.

[battle captain corpus]

It's no ones place to call into question templargdt's decisions. More our place to aid him and provide support in what is quite obviously a moral hobby crossroads.

 

Now....-hefts Crozius- ..... Let's keep it nice and simple and help the old chap shall we?

 

BCC

[ThatOneMarshal]

My suggestion is that you try playing a couple of games of 30k and see if you like it or not. Since you are on the B&C I’m going to assume that you have at least one imperial army. Try proxying them for a few games as their 30k counterpart. That’s what I ended up doing back in 7th and it was enough to convince me to start playing.

 

That way you can sorta test out for yourself if you enjoy the game or not and see if it’s tactical enough or what not.

[MARK0SIAN]

I love Heresy for most of the reasons Imren mentioned earlier, particularly the modelling aspect which has definitely taken a backseat in 8th edition. The only thing I would say is that, although Imren is right about people liking it to be wysiwyg and using the correct era weapons I’ve found the communities I interact with to be quite forgiving and relaxed if you have to use a 40k version of something so don’t be put off imagining people are super uptight about it.

 

There’s lots of wargear/weapons that FW either have stopped making (seeker bolters for example) or have never made models for (my BA assault cannons for a start) that you often have no choice but to use a different model. You can always tell if love and time have gone into a model and that’s what Heresy players care about most of all, even if it’s not the exact correct version of something.

 

I’d say definitely give Heresy a try, it’s a great experience and with all the templates around you certainly have a way of dealing with clumps of things :)

[Marshal Rohr]

I love Heresy for most of the reasons Imren mentioned earlier, particularly the modelling aspect which has definitely taken a backseat in 8th edition. The only thing I would say is that, although Imren is right about people liking it to be wysiwyg and using the correct era weapons I’ve found the communities I interact with to be quite forgiving and relaxed if you have to use a 40k version of something so don’t be put off imagining people are super uptight about it.

 

There’s lots of wargear/weapons that FW either have stopped making (seeker bolters for example) or have never made models for (my BA assault cannons for a start) that you often have no choice but to use a different model. You can always tell if love and time have gone into a model and that’s what Heresy players care about most of all, even if it’s not the exact correct version of something.

 

I’d say definitely give Heresy a try, it’s a great experience and with all the templates around you certainly have a way of dealing with clumps of things

 

Honestly, the modeling aspect is one of my main draws. So much individualization. 

[Pacific81]

I found (in the very early days at least) the HH or Great Crusade setting used to promote a lot more 'thoughtful', or thematic, list building. A lot of the time people have collected an army because they love the miniatures and setting, and have taken great care (they have to, because they're so bloody expensive!) in assembling something that is looks great as a collection and represents a range of units. 

 

I won't say it's exclusive (and I'm going back a couple of editions here) but you are far less likely to face off against a jumbled collection of half assembled/armless marines, painted in the colours of 7 chapters, and done in accordance with whatever net list people are saying is effective at the time. 

 

Of course you could well find a 40k group that lines up with what you want - I find it varies massively from place to place, and sometimes just even having a couple of friends who think the same way can be everything you need. 

 

Finally - forget whichever version of 40k (unless perhaps going back to 2nd-4th?) If you want real tactics, and super-size vehicles in a scale where they belong, try Epic Armageddon and 6mm

[Lord Marshal]

Gents-

 

I just can't stand 8th edition, or the "Cram as much into this reroll bubble as you can" edition.  Seriously, it's just dumb and I despise it.  So I'm considering the Horus Heresy because it still uses 7th edition rules, where things like trying to maneuver to get a side shot on weaker armor matter.  You know, tactics.  

 

Anyone else in this boat?  My concern is that HH appears to be dying with Alan Bligh passing away.

 

Thanks.

 

It's not so much that 30k is dying. What happened was that 30k was about as niche-ish as it is now, then along came Betrayal at Calth at a time when a noticeable amount of people were tiring of 40k 7th, but didn't want to veer into other companies. Suddenly here's a new boxset, full of new(ish) plastic Space Marine models, that doesn't completely break the bank and a lot of people are picking it up. It meant a lot more people began to experiment and 7th with all the fun of Formations and the usual GW imbalances, they had ample time - long before 8th was on the horizon - to start building and playing 30k armies. Burning of Prospero only increased that drive. It was a vacation and most people were always going to jump ship to the new 40k hotness, even if 8th only turned out to be a mildly different version of 7th. 

 

Before anybody calls me elitist, no, there's absolutely nothing wrong with having dipped into 30k only with Calth's release. I wouldn't touch a Legion army if there weren't plastic Tacticals.

 

Something to remember is that a lot of people still built 30k armies even if all they fought against were 40k armies due to nobody else getting involved. I noticed quite a few detractors tend to be those people who bought into using their 30k armies only against 40k'ers (including 40k Space Marines) it but now decry Forge World as Satan for not moving over to 8th. It's not that Heresy died per say, it's that they can't use their 30k force against 40k armies anymore so for them it did. That's certainly not the case everywhere of course, but it is for quite a few... ahem, vocal individuals. Legion vs 40k wasn't actually Horus Heresy, at least in my opinion.

 

Anyway, the point I'm making is that with 8th and mainline 40k back in the spotlight, 30k has simply moved back into the niche position that it was in previously. Is the scene quieter? Yeah, but in my experience it's still busier than it was prior to Calth's release with the influx of (then) new blood that decided to stick around. Forge World is now in a far better, more organised position than it was shortly after Alan's death (RIP). Forge World will never get back to the same level of 'success' that it did back in 2016/2017 simply because Games Workshop were shooting at their foot enough to drive it and nothing will ever be enough for the detractors who damn Forge World for not moving to 8th, which means there's always going to be a cloud hanging over their heads. Even if Forge World did swap and by tomorrow morning the entire ruleset had 8th rules, it won't get back to where it was because it would need Games Workshop to screw themselves over with 40k (again).

 

Halfstrain summed it up nicely. A lot of those same people now spitting on 7th were some of the most fierce defenders of it. Whatever mainline Games Workshop does is sacred and Forge World committed the unforgivable sin of not falling in line with daddy, therefore every rule, model and whatever else is tarnished forever.

[sarabando]

imo the best part of HH is the boat load of HQ minisyou can make :D

[Noserenda]

Tbh, far and away the worst thing about HH is the rules set, youd just be swapping bubbles for deathstars and badly balanced unit spam tbh.

However if you can get the right group that can certainly be a decent dynamic. 

(And most of the really toxic HH defenders have crawled back into their caves it seems)

[Slave to Darkness]

Horus Heresy gamers were a thing before GW officially produced rules and made early power armour marks in resin... We will outlive a failing (depending on who you talk to) system. 

 

IMHO 8th ed is a joke, no tactical finesse needed, you just need to shoot first and make sure your characters buff everything/give rerolls . 7th ed / Age of Darkness is the better system than Bubblehammer 40'000 and I am glad that certain units dont have 40k rules. Keep the two systems separate. 

[templargdt]

Thanks for everyone's replies, some of them were highly useful, kind, and thoughtful.  It's why I've enjoyed this board for so long.

 

8th edition isn't about cramming as much as you can into a re roll bubble.

Don't you play Ultramarines?
 

In all seriousness, I started playing this game when 5th edition dropped and 8th has just sucked the joy straight out of it for me.  For everything that GW has gotten right recently (communication to the player base, FAQs and balancing attempts, recent models have been fantastic except for some of the Primaris) I honestly have no idea what the designers where thinking when they drew up this rule set.  This doesn't have to be Star Fleet Battles tier complicated, but my God I think I could teach my four year old how to play this game if I really tried.

I'm sorely tempted to make an Imperial Fists HH army because Sigismund is awesome.  I dunno.  I look at HH and hey, templates!  Armor facings!  USRs!  Its Warhammer 40k!  I loved that game. 

It's just such a shame.

[Gederas]

8th edition isn't about cramming as much as you can into a re roll bubble.

Don't you play Ultramarines?

Broken clock is right twice a day and all that (unless it's a military time clock).

 

In all seriousness, I started playing this game when 5th edition dropped and 8th has just sucked the joy straight out of it for me.  For everything that GW has gotten right recently (communication to the player base, FAQs and balancing attempts, recent models have been fantastic except for some of the Primaris) I honestly have no idea what the designers where thinking when they drew up this rule set.  This doesn't have to be Star Fleet Battles tier complicated, but my God I think I could teach my four year old how to play this game if I really tried.

 

I'm sorely tempted to make an Imperial Fists HH army because Sigismund is awesome.  I dunno.  I look at HH and hey, templates!  Armor facings!  USRs!  Its Warhammer 40k!  I loved that game. 

 

It's just such a shame.

And I think you hit the nail on the head. 8th Edition seems to be made with simplicity and streamlining in mind.

 

Re: Templates

 

With how big games can be in 8th, NO THANK YOU. I had only played a few games of 7th and my god. When a Template came out, it slowed the game down massively because both players were trying to finagle the best result for them out of using the template.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Templates, imho, are a much better mechanic than 1D6, 2D6 shots etc. and they can target multiple units, like they should be able to (again, just imho).

Bunch up at your peril and look through the plastic shape, was for me far more fun than blob up because we have a bunch of bulletproof bubble buff makers. 

 

Whilst 7th and therefore HH were/are not perfect, I agree with the OP that 8th is rubbish for so many reasons. But just an opinion.

[MegaVolt87]

@templargdt,

 

I think you have run a step too far forward with your thinking. Have you actually done your homework on if there is a HH scene that is a reasonable distance away from you or even just meets regularly enough to be worth the investment into HH proper? I know because I wanted to start HH as well, but there was nothing really solid as far as community for me to participate to be worth it. I instead went 8th ed, with possibility to go HH with my FW stuff for my IW later on if that changes.  If you end up having access to a HH scene easily, or willing to travel to get there no problems. If there is nothing, would you buy 2 or more armies to just play casually with friends/ family for HH? I think what Ishagu is trying to say your decision/reasoning is based on more from emotion than critical thinking etc, I can see how it would come across as a insult but that is not how I saw it IMO. 

[Marshal Rohr]

@templargdt,

 

I think you have run a step too far forward with your thinking. Have you actually done your homework on if there is a HH scene that is a reasonable distance away from you or even just meets regularly enough to be worth the investment into HH proper? I know because I wanted to start HH as well, but there was nothing really solid as far as community for me to participate to be worth it. I instead went 8th ed, with possibility to go HH with my FW stuff for my IW later on if that changes. If you end up having access to a HH scene easily, or willing to travel to get there no problems. If there is nothing, would you buy 2 or more armies to just play casually with friends/ family for HH? I think what Ishagu is trying to say your decision/reasoning is based on more from emotion than critical thinking etc, I can see how it would come across as a insult but that is not how I saw it IMO.

You don’t need to play games to build an army. I used to build model Sherman’s and Tigers and nothing about that meant I wasn’t crticically thinking. It’s a little rude to suggest people who build models to build models are somehow not doing it right, especially when GW themselves say the games come after the models.