Considering HH because I loathe 8th edition

[MegaVolt87]

 

@templargdt,

 

I think you have run a step too far forward with your thinking. Have you actually done your homework on if there is a HH scene that is a reasonable distance away from you or even just meets regularly enough to be worth the investment into HH proper? I know because I wanted to start HH as well, but there was nothing really solid as far as community for me to participate to be worth it. I instead went 8th ed, with possibility to go HH with my FW stuff for my IW later on if that changes. If you end up having access to a HH scene easily, or willing to travel to get there no problems. If there is nothing, would you buy 2 or more armies to just play casually with friends/ family for HH? I think what Ishagu is trying to say your decision/reasoning is based on more from emotion than critical thinking etc, I can see how it would come across as a insult but that is not how I saw it IMO.

You don’t need to play games to build an army. I used to build model Sherman’s and Tigers and nothing about that meant I wasn’t crticically thinking. It’s a little rude to suggest people who build models to build models are somehow not doing it right, especially when GW themselves say the games come after the models.

 

 

True, but the way OP phrased their post indicates a desire to switch gaming systems as they were not happy playing 8th ed. They didn't say anything about just collecting and not playing HH at all. 

[Ishagu]

Sure, I completely understand that. I have also built many models and small armies of factions I haven't intended to play.

The point is that I don't justify it by criticising a game system or by making up some half baked reason that isn't an accurate reflection of the game.

 

This isn't an attack on TC, it's a criticism of his reasoning and premise for this discussion.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

@templargdt,

 

I think you have run a step too far forward with your thinking. Have you actually done your homework on if there is a HH scene that is a reasonable distance away from you or even just meets regularly enough to be worth the investment into HH proper? I know because I wanted to start HH as well, but there was nothing really solid as far as community for me to participate to be worth it. I instead went 8th ed, with possibility to go HH with my FW stuff for my IW later on if that changes. If you end up having access to a HH scene easily, or willing to travel to get there no problems. If there is nothing, would you buy 2 or more armies to just play casually with friends/ family for HH? I think what Ishagu is trying to say your decision/reasoning is based on more from emotion than critical thinking etc, I can see how it would come across as a insult but that is not how I saw it IMO.

You don’t need to play games to build an army. I used to build model Sherman’s and Tigers and nothing about that meant I wasn’t crticically thinking. It’s a little rude to suggest people who build models to build models are somehow not doing it right, especially when GW themselves say the games come after the models.

True, but the way OP phrased their post indicates a desire to switch gaming systems as they were not happy playing 8th ed. They didn't say anything about just collecting and not playing HH at all.

Even so, BCC has already said the point of this thread isn’t the merits or demerits of 8th edition, it’s about helping the OP switch over. Many people have already pointed out the Age of Darkness rules quirks and how to avoid them, and that the Age of Darkness rules are now like Necromunda and Titanicus. As in, these rules are no longer 7th edition and will evolve further away from previous iterations of the 40k editions in the years to come. Things like deathstars can be compensated for because the Heresy has returned to a niche gaming community, where it started.

[Ishagu]

The switch comes down to two things. Budget and a local environment.

 

TC, is the HH popular in your local clubs? If yes then great. If no then dedicated yourself to it might not be a good idea as you won't get much gaming time (This is important if you are an active player).

 

Are you happy to spend a lot of money and time building a HH army? Even with the plastic kits available it still racks up in cost significantly higher than a full plastic 40k force.

 

 

And finally, if you simply want a 30k project to build and collect then by all means go ahead, and ignore any reasoning as it's simply what you want to do.

[Brother Tyler]

Another alternative to consider is Kill Team. It won't scratch the itch for vehicles and flyers and super characters, but you're likely to have other Kill Team players in the area.

 

Another good thing about Kill Team is that you can use a lot (but certainly not all) of the power armoured Space Marines from the Age of Darkness/Horus Heresy setting.

[Marshal Rohr]

Another alternative to consider is Kill Team. It won't scratch the itch for vehicles and flyers and super characters, but you're likely to have other Kill Team players in the area.

 

Another good thing about Kill Team is that you can use a lot (but certainly not all) of the power armoured Space Marines from the Age of Darkness/Horus Heresy setting.

 

Adapting the Kill Team rules for Legion specific kill teams is one of my current projects. 

[Beams]

Id always also consider city of death rules - they greatly improved 8th edition

[Xenith]

 

I just can't stand 8th edition, or the "Cram as much into this reroll bubble as you can" edition.  Seriously, it's just dumb and I despise it.  

 

Yup, 7th was much better when there were fewer bubbles and all the models were crammed into the same über unit to give overlapping benefits (namely rerollable 2+ invulnerable saves).

 

I hate to say, but it's players attitudes that provide the gameplay experience, not the ruleset. If all your local players are maximising overlapping auras in 8th, then they will sure as hell be maximising overlapping USR's in 7th (something something Alpha Legion scouting+infiltrating Spartans).

 

My suggestion would be to get a few more games of 8th ed in - you don't say how much you actually play, just that you don't like the ruleset).

 

HH is far from dying - if you read the forge world information you'll find that out. Sanguinius sold out immediately. Record demand, etc. Key for you will be to find a group willing to play 7th ed heresy. You'll largely be playing against other 7th ed armies, with the formation rules, which puts you at a massive disadvantage. 

 

Ultimately, it's pointless to ask us what the HH scene is like in your area. You just have to go to your club and ask for yourself 

 

EDIT: Another interesting thing about 7th was that to have all the rules for a Blood Angels army, I needed 14 (real number, I counted) different publications, many of which were out of print (WD weeklies, Deathstorm instruction book, etc). The heresy is much the same (and 8th is heading that way...), I think needing about £300 worth of books to have rules for all available models. I feel they would benefit from an auto updating digital version of the red books. That is probably the barrier to entry for the HH. 

[HandsWithLegs]

 

Another alternative to consider is Kill Team. It won't scratch the itch for vehicles and flyers and super characters, but you're likely to have other Kill Team players in the area.

 

Another good thing about Kill Team is that you can use a lot (but certainly not all) of the power armoured Space Marines from the Age of Darkness/Horus Heresy setting.

 

Adapting the Kill Team rules for Legion specific kill teams is one of my current projects. 

 

There's actually already a project to do this over on the kill team subforum. Hasn't been updated in a while and I have no clue if its any good but it might be fun to look into

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/350633-kill-team-age-of-darkness-updated-mechanicum-teams/

[rendingon1+]

For me it is a question of setting I like the most. I just can't stand 40k background.

As for the rules, yes Heresy has it's own problems, system is definitely not perfect.

• Quite a large number of Legion/generic RoW's is useless, same with some Legion specific units.
• Power creep, some factions are much more point effective than the others. 
• FW updates rules (even the ones with most glaring and ridiculous mistakes) extremely rarely
• HH scene is obviously smaller which means that every player counts - even WAACs
• Army building/expanding cost is much higher than in 40k assuming you care about period specific wargear

That's for Heresy flaws as I see them. In no way means 40k is superior or even better.

 

 

 

EDIT: Another interesting thing about 7th was that to have all the rules for a Blood Angels army, I needed 14 (real number, I counted) different publications, many of which were out of print (WD weeklies, Deathstorm instruction book, etc). The heresy is much the same (and 8th is heading that way...), I think needing about £300 worth of books to have rules for all available models. I feel they would benefit from an auto updating digital version of the red books. That is probably the barrier to entry for the HH. 

 

No heresy is not much the same and 8 isn't heading 7th edition way it's already there. For playing a Legion force you need only:

 

a) 2 red books

red Legion list book + black book if your Legion is past Tempest

And of course errata (there's only two of them at the moment)

There's some new generic stuff that comes with every black book so you'll probably need this too.

 

I can't see how it compares to 40k's:

Let's say Space MArines:

Codex SM + errata

Campaign book (nihilus?yes?) + errata

Chpter Approved + errata

Imperial Armour (if you're using FW stuff) + errata

Index (for some non codex options) + Errata

Designers commentary

Not counting rulebook + errata.

 

Am I missing something?

[N1SB]

A quick reply consolidating my experiences, and these are just IMHO, so that our learnings can help you plan:

 

 

I'm sorely tempted to make an Imperial Fists HH army because Sigismund is awesome.

 

I think you should totally do a 30k project because IMHO what you said here is the ideal thinking towards that game.  30k doesn't have 8th ed's issues...because 30k has its own completely different set of issues.  So if you have a concept you wish to turn into reality such as, say, the precursor to the Black Templars lead by Sigismund, that's actually the type of motivation I found most useful for 30k, both for yourself and your opponents.

 

With that in mind, here's some Hard Lessons Learned by me when I 1st got into 30k:

 

 

1. Pretty much everyone's into 30k for the lore, but there are Novel Reenactors and there are Custom Character Creators

 

 

A good Warhammer friend and I had a shouting match once after a 30k game.  Basically, I was just asking why he was force-fitting a Primarch into every battle, even when he knew he wouldn't be effective (he took Mortarion, which is really good against regular power armoured foes, but not so good against an all-Terminator force).  Things got heated and he kept on shouting the defense of "I'M A FLUFF PLAYER."

 

The problem with that point was, so was I.  I read the HH novels as he did, in fact, I was the only other person in our group of 40k players that did.  I also read his FW books, which presented the Heresy like a war documentary, which I loved.  And we basically realised was that we were like 2 ships passing in the night by totally missing each other's points by talking about fluff/lore.

 

His idea of fluff/lore was more based on the novels, which was very personal and focused on the Primarch's own personalities, so he played 30k to re-enact that (like old Napoleonic wargames are really like that), so of course he included his Primarch.  My idea of fluff/lore was weighed more by the FW's documentary-style, which was impersonal and focused on the situations that the Legions confronted...and I deliberately chose to play the Shattered Xth (i.e. Iron Hands) precisely because our Primarch was dead so I create my own story within that setting.

 

30k really appeals to both of our types.  FW includes all sorts of characters from the novels to reenact their stories.  It also gives the deepest custom character creation rules since 1st ed 40k.  Yet we totally misunderstood each other, but now that you know our story, you can avoid our misunderstanding.

 

 

2. The Mechanicum (and maybe the new Ruinstorm Chaos Daemons) exist to ruin your day

 

 

There's in fact a subfaction within the precursor to the Mechanicus named "the Order of Blessed Ruin", but in general, the Mechanicum doesn't so much fight as dismantle armies.  Everyone has unique special rules in 30k, but as a Mechanicum player I feel like I operated under different laws of physics.

 

The Mechanicum just engineer weapons to totally eradicate specific types of combatants.  For example we have this Torrent template weapon (we move a Flamer template 12" from a unit and position it however we like) that just happens to totally ignore power armour and wounds on a 2+...ideal against non-Terminator marines.  Another just Haywires vehicles from the sky instead of trying to penetrate their armour.

 

We have our own weaknesses, so don't feel discouraged.  There's just a weird learning curve with them.

 

 

3. If there's no 30k meta in your area, start one with small armies...it might even be the best way to play.

 

 

We have a minority opinion here...more of a working theory in progress...that 30k might actually work best with small armies.  A lot of the problems have been these huge 30k deathstars, but they only work at 2000+ point games.  That's not a popular opinion because most 30k players are actually hardcore dedicated 40k players, but if the attraction of the Horus Heresy is the lore as we all say, apocalypse-sized armies aren't really the point IMHO.  There are plenty of scenarios even in the epic novel series where it's just a single squad lead by a Captain doing important missions.

 

And IMHO, it's way cheaper now to do a 30k force than when I got into it just a few years ago, because now we have plastic Mk III and Mk IV marines and Tataros Terminators, Contemptors, etc.  Actually, I'm really envious of you, you've got a good idea that I think can be beautifully represented with plastic minis that weren't available before with just a few upgrade kits.

 

 

+++

 

 

In short, you should totally do something with 30k.  It's not just because you're not into 8th ed, 30k is a cool project for anyone to do now.  Just perhaps manage expectations and because of that, start small.

[m0nolith]

Hey there templargdt , welcome to the magical (MAGIC IS HERESY!) world of heresy.

So there are a couple of things I want to clarify to you about 30k, and a lot of this has already been stated by other posts, but here it is anyways:

 

1: Heresy is in no way dying, in fact there seems to be a surge of players the last six months or so because a lot of players like you are leaving 8th to go to 30k. This is reflected in the global Heresy community

 

2: Heresy 7th isn’t 40k 7th. The reason late 7th 40k was terrible was because of the terrible formations and poor Codexes. 30k on the other hand synergizes incredibly well with the ruleset while at the same time avoiding the major issues of 7th 40k.

 

3: It’s much more of a narrative game compared to 40k. You will not really find the min/maxing hyper competitive type of players players in this game. So if you think the model looks cool and it fits into your narrative, play it!

 

4: The community of 30k is generally different to that of 40k. It’s older for one, probably due to the majority of players being vet or former 40k players. There’s also a noticeable lack of the more toxic elements of the 40k community. The general attitude is that you play to win, but you’re there to have fun as well, and it’s no fun if one opponent gets absolutely smashed.

 

That’s about it. There are exceptions to every rule of course, but these points are generally shared by the wider Heresy world. We’re a friendly bunch and we’re always happy to see new players :D

[Ishagu]

Lol the last friendly game of HH I played involved arguing with my opponent for over 45 minutes over rule interpretations, vehicle facings and obvious or not obvious intent. The joys of 7th edition

[Marshal Rohr]

A quick reply consolidating my experiences, and these are just IMHO, so that our learnings can help you plan:

 

 

I'm sorely tempted to make an Imperial Fists HH army because Sigismund is awesome.

 

I think you should totally do a 30k project because IMHO what you said here is the ideal thinking towards that game.  30k doesn't have 8th ed's issues...because 30k has its own completely different set of issues.  So if you have a concept you wish to turn into reality such as, say, the precursor to the Black Templars lead by Sigismund, that's actually the type of motivation I found most useful for 30k, both for yourself and your opponents.

 

With that in mind, here's some Hard Lessons Learned by me when I 1st got into 30k:

 

 

1. Pretty much everyone's into 30k for the lore, but there are Novel Reenactors and there are Custom Character Creators

 

 

A good Warhammer friend and I had a shouting match once after a 30k game.  Basically, I was just asking why he was force-fitting a Primarch into every battle, even when he knew he wouldn't be effective (he took Mortarion, which is really good against regular power armoured foes, but not so good against an all-Terminator force).  Things got heated and he kept on shouting the defense of "I'M A FLUFF PLAYER."

 

The problem with that point was, so was I.  I read the HH novels as he did, in fact, I was the only other person in our group of 40k players that did.  I also read his FW books, which presented the Heresy like a war documentary, which I loved.  And we basically realised was that we were like 2 ships passing in the night by totally missing each other's points by talking about fluff/lore.

 

His idea of fluff/lore was more based on the novels, which was very personal and focused on the Primarch's own personalities, so he played 30k to re-enact that (like old Napoleonic wargames are really like that), so of course he included his Primarch.  My idea of fluff/lore was weighed more by the FW's documentary-style, which was impersonal and focused on the situations that the Legions confronted...and I deliberately chose to play the Shattered Xth (i.e. Iron Hands) precisely because our Primarch was dead so I create my own story within that setting.

 

30k really appeals to both of our types.  FW includes all sorts of characters from the novels to reenact their stories.  It also gives the deepest custom character creation rules since 1st ed 40k.  Yet we totally misunderstood each other, but now that you know our story, you can avoid our misunderstanding.

 

 

2. The Mechanicum (and maybe the new Ruinstorm Chaos Daemons) exist to ruin your day

 

 

There's in fact a subfaction within the precursor to the Mechanicus named "the Order of Blessed Ruin", but in general, the Mechanicum doesn't so much fight as dismantle armies.  Everyone has unique special rules in 30k, but as a Mechanicum player I feel like I operated under different laws of physics.

 

The Mechanicum just engineer weapons to totally eradicate specific types of combatants.  For example we have this Torrent template weapon (we move a Flamer template 12" from a unit and position it however we like) that just happens to totally ignore power armour and wounds on a 2+...ideal against non-Terminator marines.  Another just Haywires vehicles from the sky instead of trying to penetrate their armour.

 

We have our own weaknesses, so don't feel discouraged.  There's just a weird learning curve with them.

 

 

3. If there's no 30k meta in your area, start one with small armies...it might even be the best way to play.

 

 

We have a minority opinion here...more of a working theory in progress...that 30k might actually work best with small armies.  A lot of the problems have been these huge 30k deathstars, but they only work at 2000+ point games.  That's not a popular opinion because most 30k players are actually hardcore dedicated 40k players, but if the attraction of the Horus Heresy is the lore as we all say, apocalypse-sized armies aren't really the point IMHO.  There are plenty of scenarios even in the epic novel series where it's just a single squad lead by a Captain doing important missions.

 

And IMHO, it's way cheaper now to do a 30k force than when I got into it just a few years ago, because now we have plastic Mk III and Mk IV marines and Tataros Terminators, Contemptors, etc.  Actually, I'm really envious of you, you've got a good idea that I think can be beautifully represented with plastic minis that weren't available before with just a few upgrade kits.

 

 

+++

 

 

In short, you should totally do something with 30k.  It's not just because you're not into 8th ed, 30k is a cool project for anyone to do now.  Just perhaps manage expectations and because of that, start small.

 

Perfect post!

[rendingon1+]

Yeah, people forget (or petend to) that HH is not 40k 7th edition. You have none of stupid formantions or allies bull:cuss in here. Two main reasons that made 7th and 6th unbearable and, as some people say, "pointless".

[m0nolith]

Yeah, people forget (or petend to) that HH is not 40k 7th edition. You have none of stupid formantions or allies bull:cuss in here. Two main reasons that made 7th and 6th unbearable and, as some people say, "pointless".

I think there was one point to it, it must have helped GW generate sales initially when you need to buy “X” of something to make the formation happen, models you wouldn’t have bought otherwise. I can also imagine that in time this business strategy had diminishing returns as people got fed up with the system.

It’s a business in the end.

[rendingon1+]

I agree and understand, though as a customer-player I must say it ruined my positive experience in using GW rpoducts (rules are still a product)

[Xenith]

 

 

EDIT: Another interesting thing about 7th was that to have all the rules for a Blood Angels army, I needed 14 (real number, I counted) different publications, many of which were out of print (WD weeklies, Deathstorm instruction book, etc). The heresy is much the same (and 8th is heading that way...), I think needing about £300 worth of books to have rules for all available models. I feel they would benefit from an auto updating digital version of the red books. That is probably the barrier to entry for the HH. 

 

No heresy is not much the same and 8 isn't heading 7th edition way it's already there. For playing a Legion force you need only:

 

a) 2 red books

b ) red Legion list book + black book if your Legion is past Tempest

And of course errata (there's only two of them at the moment)

There's some new generic stuff that comes with every black book so you'll probably need this too.

 

I can't see how it compares to 40k's:

Let's say Space MArines:

 

Codex SM + errata

 

Am I missing something?

 

Now now, you can't go adding in FAQ/Errata to 8th ed requirements without adding them to the Heresy. Please be objective in this.

 

To Field Alpha Legion with a Sicaran Omega/Punisher I currently need 2x red books, a print out/Malevolence, and 28 page FAQ. I have no idea how many books I'd need to be able to field every unit in a legion. 

 

Conversely, to field all that Chaos have I think I just need the digital version of the codex (updated for free). Maybe either the daemonkin book or vigilus defiant, whichever rules werent included in the 8.5 codex.

 

As with anything, you should play the army/game/system because of the fluff and the lore. Rules change every edition, and if you build your army around a specific rule, you'll only be disappointed in the end.

[Noserenda]

Yeah, people forget (or petend to) that HH is not 40k 7th edition. You have none of stupid formantions or allies bull:cuss in here. Two main reasons that made 7th and 6th unbearable and, as some people say, "pointless".

It really is 7th Edition though, the changes from it could fit in  a couple of pages at best... 7th had a lot more problems than formations (And it uses almost the same allies system...) . Im not interested in another argument about it but you shouldnt present opinion as consensus.

[rendingon1+]

No heresy is not much the same and 8 isn't heading 7th edition way it's already there. For playing a Legion force you need only:

 

a) 2 red books

b ) red Legion list book + black book if your Legion is past Tempest

And of course errata (there's only two of them at the moment)

There's some new generic stuff that comes with every black book so you'll probably need this too.

 

I can't see how it compares to 40k's:

Let's say Space MArines:

 

Codex SM + errata

 

Am I missing something?

 

I mentioned AoD errata, what do you mean? I also mentioned that you'll probably need latest black book if you want to use all the new toys. Even with Malevolence that makes 3 rules sources +1 errata.

 

Also I just gave a list what SM player would need to be able to utilize all options available to SM. Why did you just crop it into Codex SM + Errata?

 

As for 28 page errata: Weak argument really. It's GENERAL errata which means it encompasses: Ruebook, Legions red books, Crusade Imperialis and MEchs. If you want to play BA for example, number of pages concerning your Legion is 6 (general rules, that is). You can always cut the stuff you don't need.

 

So you see.

 

Yeah, people forget (or petend to) that HH is not 40k 7th edition. You have none of stupid formantions or allies bull:cuss in here. Two main reasons that made 7th and 6th unbearable and, as some people say, "pointless".

It really is 7th Edition though, the changes from it could fit in  a couple of pages at best... 7th had a lot more problems than formations (And it uses almost the same allies system...) . Im not interested in another argument about it but you shouldnt present opinion as consensus.

 

Sure it is 7th edition (though formaly it's Age of Darkness). Every system has it's problems but formations and allies were killing it in general. Yes, I remember unbalanced psychic phase, :cussing eldar, riptides, general power creep etc BUT you don't have it in 30k. But if you mean templates and facing, they never were a problem, only the...limitations of human mind.

[DuskRaider]

I'm heavily invested in both 30K and 40K and have played a lot with both. Heresy is definitely a different beast when compared to 40K and the rules are only one facet of that. There is definitely a larger emphasis on the hobby aspect of the game and FW has helped that along with the rules themselves.

 

In my opinion, 30K is what 7th Edition should have been. It's more pure, it doesn't rely on gimmicky Formation garbage (which ruined 7th), and is focused much more on tactics than 8th ever will. They did manage to muck it up a bit with the release of Custodes and Thousand Sons / Wolves being generally OP, but for the most part it's a balanced and fun game to play.

 

I tend to look at it and treat it as an historical game because well... that's what it is. Definitely not cheap to play but ultimately very rewarding if you have a group to play with. Unfortunately with the release of 8th it seems a lot of players pushed Heresy to the side, but now that the shininess of 8th is starting to wear, they're coming back slowly.

 

This isn't to say that 40K / 8th isn't fun, it definitely is. It just plays different and definitely has a different feel to it. I love both, but I feel 30K is the more mature game. Obviously that's just my opinion.

 

Edit: oh, and one more thing. If you're expecting to play out some epic Primarch v. Primarch battles in 30K, prepare for disappointment. If 90% of the matchups, it still takes the more powerful Primarchs more turns than the game traditionally allows to squash even the weaker ones. In other words, if you do choose to field a Primarch... avoid other Primarchs. Or just agree not to take them (especially Russ, he's an abomination to the game).

[Ishagu]

Heresy isn't that balanced lol. The Legions aren't balanced, never mind stuff like AdMech.

 

I'd say it's about the same as 40k 8th edition in terms of balance. Both are better than 7

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I would not start an HH army unless I knew I can easily get in games with people I enjoy playing. It is really fun to model/convert/paint/paint but I want to play as well .

[toaae]

=][=

Folks, whatever your individual opinions on the merits of one rule system over another might be, this is not the thread for it. If you have discussion related to switching from mainstream 40k (IE, 8th) to something else, this is the place to share it. Please remember that "The Bolter & Chainsword promotes constructive discussion about all aspects of the Warhammer 40,000 hobby."

 

Thank you

=][=

[wildweasel]

30k can be quite expensive if you go for vehicle and walker heavy army since there is no practical alternatives to Forgeworld models. Exception to this is infantry heavy space marine legion armies, these can be built relatively low cost with GW plastic alternatives (thinking of those that came with Calth and Prospero boxes), and there are tonnes of good 3rd party supplies of infantry wargear and armour models (i.e. Kromlech and Pop goes the monkey).

30k players can be quite strict with modeling, they rather use 30k plasma/melta guns than 40k ones, even if the difference is quite small. Same with Rhinos and Land Raiders. Only MkII to MkV or perhaps MkVI armour on your power armoured infantry is socially accepted.

 

 

Of course the irony here is that the plastic Rhino and Land Raider and Dreadnought designs and such were all in use during the Crusade/Heresy. There were forge worlds across the galaxy churning out all kinds of different patterns of the standard wargear. 30K players do tend to use the "old school" designs from early 40K that FW went back and embraced for the nostalgia factor to make forces that do have a different visual aesthetic - but they aren't any more "fluffy".