kombatwombat Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 I think people are forgetting that GW straight out wrote that they think vehicles with the Bolter Discipline rule have become too strong. However those vehicles weren't particularly strong even with it. They were okay-ish. Close to being able to do what they are supposed to do. Sure some people are complaining about a huge nerf to vehicles and I don't necessarily agree with those opinions, however citicising GW for such statements is 100% legit because it just shows how little they understand their game. This is the essence of my point. GW have come out and actually walked us through their rationale for that. Calling any of the three vehicles that have Hurricane Bolters overpowered, especially the Land Raider that benefits the most from Bolter Discipline, shows a deeply concerning lack of understanding of the game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355599-big-faq-has-dropped/page/10/#findComment-5305779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 This is one of those cases I absolutely believe some old school (designer?) looked at the rule and said “That rule doesn’t reflect the narrative in any way. Let’s chop off the vehicles and just leave it for the boots on the ground.” That’s my head canon any ;) because, yeah table top effectiveness-wise ... it barely shifts the needle either direction. Unless it’s willing to hover Flyers aren’t effected and the LRC “should” be rolling up delivering troops in the middle of the scrum anyway. Just like my issue with the confirmed rework of Strike from the Shadows, I find it mildly irritating but hardly effects the game narrative or competitive in anyway substantial. I’m more juiced about hits Eldar and Knights took. First one because yeah anything that brings them back to the pack even a little bit is a win for everyone else and the second because now when I start my Knight army latter this year I won’t feel compelled to buy a Castellan for competitive purposes. All hail the twin Crusaders ;) Lastly I’m not sure it matters competitively but I’m happy they cleaned up the Guard and Chaos exceptions to the Rule of Three. It took awhile but at least we won’t have to think about seeing 9 Demon Princes or 9 of someone’s favorite artillery piece. I’m sure someone else might point to this as GW being behind the curve, and they were, but all I would ask is that we as a forum point out these kind of things without malice :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355599-big-faq-has-dropped/page/10/#findComment-5305801 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 I can't believe we're still on the bolter and vehicle thing. Honestly it's not a massive deal. Maybe, if vehicles do gain Chapter Tactics style rules it might have led to some undesirable rule combinations and it has bee nipped in the bud now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355599-big-faq-has-dropped/page/10/#findComment-5305866 Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmapa Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 Vehicle BD isnt the real erf to SM, its the Hellfire shells. Last time SM did well was by spamming scouts and MWs and the nerf hurt that tactic, who knows there may be other lists popping up but its not like SM have a ton of options in terms of stratagems and offensive output. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355599-big-faq-has-dropped/page/10/#findComment-5305884 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 So much in the game just became so much better that I literally don't care about Astartes not getting a boost. Everything in the game is relative. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355599-big-faq-has-dropped/page/10/#findComment-5305892 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 Remember Ishagu people of all ages post here and I reckon the younger ones tend to Q_Q about bolters on vehicles. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355599-big-faq-has-dropped/page/10/#findComment-5306060 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 Vehicle BD isnt the real erf to SM, its the Hellfire shells. Last time SM did well was by spamming scouts and MWs and the nerf hurt that tactic, who knows there may be other lists popping up but its not like SM have a ton of options in terms of stratagems and offensive output. ??? The change didn't affect Scouts at all. Only Devastators can get the cherub... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355599-big-faq-has-dropped/page/10/#findComment-5306156 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 They can only pop the Cherub once per strat now though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355599-big-faq-has-dropped/page/10/#findComment-5306158 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 I can't believe we're still on the bolter and vehicle thing. Honestly it's not a massive deal. Maybe, if vehicles do gain Chapter Tactics style rules it might have led to some undesirable rule combinations and it has bee nipped in the bud now. Thought they were confirmed to be getting them lmao. And also, what would have been "nipped in the bud" that would tilt the balance that bad? A crimson fist lrc? Really? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355599-big-faq-has-dropped/page/10/#findComment-5306198 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beatnik cryptek Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 So has anyone's head exploded because SoBs don't get bolter discipline? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355599-big-faq-has-dropped/page/10/#findComment-5306207 Share on other sites More sharing options...
templargdt Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 So has anyone's head exploded because SoBs don't get bolter discipline? No. Look, GW is trying to increase it's sales of their new space marine and CSM infantry model range. That's why the vehicles aren't getting the bolter rules. The LRC made it's money for GW a long time ago. Sisters will get great stuff when the codex drops in December. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355599-big-faq-has-dropped/page/10/#findComment-5306209 Share on other sites More sharing options...
kombatwombat Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 No. Look, GW is trying to increase it's sales of their new space marine and CSM infantry model range. That's why the vehicles aren't getting the bolter rules. The LRC made it's money for GW a long time ago. That doesn’t make any sense, though. Selling a Land Raider kit now is a big win for GW, since as its costs have been covered, each sale of that kit is like 90% profit for GW. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355599-big-faq-has-dropped/page/10/#findComment-5306220 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 So has anyone's head exploded because SoBs don't get bolter discipline? No, bolter rules will not sell sisters. Acts of faith rules will if they work like a self contained CP generator + fewer stronger "acts" (stratagems) etc, however they finalize the acts of faith/prayers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355599-big-faq-has-dropped/page/10/#findComment-5306227 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 GW loves SoB and it’s clear they hate SM plain as day. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355599-big-faq-has-dropped/page/10/#findComment-5306238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 Has this thread turned into a bash GW one again? Come on! Not another one! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355599-big-faq-has-dropped/page/10/#findComment-5306253 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plasmablasts Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 GW have been clear that Bolter Discipline was meant to be an Astartes buff. All game stats put units into crude bands of broadly similar ability. A Battle Sister represents the peak ability of a trained mortal human; that’s unlikely to reach the potential of a transhuman warrior who can train 20 hours a day, yet both are BS3+. Bolter Discipline helps to distinguish them without breaking the game. (I’ll leave Custodes out of the discussion for now...) Having got my Grey Knights out and had my first ever games of 8th edition just a fortnight ago, I’m hardly a top-tier player but even to me the GK FAQ was a bit galling. The focus really seemed to be on closing the loopholes that still allowed for 2++ equivalent saves, without really considering whether those were having any significant effect on the balance of the game. So, from a GK player perspective, it felt like the codex’s (by consensus) bottom tier status was ignored and we were just hit by a series of petty nerfs. (Apart from getting Bolter Discipline, which my Terminators loved...) I think accusing GW of “malice” is silly, but I can see why some players start to feel that way and it would be good for GW to recognise that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355599-big-faq-has-dropped/page/10/#findComment-5306292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 I can't believe we're still on the bolter and vehicle thing. Honestly it's not a massive deal. Maybe, if vehicles do gain Chapter Tactics style rules it might have led to some undesirable rule combinations and it has bee nipped in the bud now. Thought they were confirmed to be getting them lmao. And also, what would have been "nipped in the bud" that would tilt the balance that bad? A crimson fist lrc? Really? Oh they will be. Don't you worry. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355599-big-faq-has-dropped/page/10/#findComment-5306320 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petitioner's City Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 GW have been clear that Bolter Discipline was meant to be an Astartes buff. All game stats put units into crude bands of broadly similar ability. A Battle Sister represents the peak ability of a trained mortal human; that’s unlikely to reach the potential of a transhuman warrior who can train 20 hours a day, yet both are BS3+. Bolter Discipline helps to distinguish them without breaking the game. (I’ll leave Custodes out of the discussion for now...) Time for stats on 2d6 :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355599-big-faq-has-dropped/page/10/#findComment-5306322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 GW have been clear that Bolter Discipline was meant to be an Astartes buff. All game stats put units into crude bands of broadly similar ability. A Battle Sister represents the peak ability of a trained mortal human; that’s unlikely to reach the potential of a transhuman warrior who can train 20 hours a day, yet both are BS3+. Bolter Discipline helps to distinguish them without breaking the game. (I’ll leave Custodes out of the discussion for now...) Having got my Grey Knights out and had my first ever games of 8th edition just a fortnight ago, I’m hardly a top-tier player but even to me the GK FAQ was a bit galling. The focus really seemed to be on closing the loopholes that still allowed for 2++ equivalent saves, without really considering whether those were having any significant effect on the balance of the game. So, from a GK player perspective, it felt like the codex’s (by consensus) bottom tier status was ignored and we were just hit by a series of petty nerfs. (Apart from getting Bolter Discipline, which my Terminators loved...) I think accusing GW of “malice” is silly, but I can see why some players start to feel that way and it would be good for GW to recognise that. Those loopholes were an exploit as best, and cheating at worst. It was an order of operation abuse of the rules and I don't care that it's gone. The problems with Grey Knights are more significant and I think they'll get a proper boost in a new codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355599-big-faq-has-dropped/page/10/#findComment-5306324 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vykes Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 ... Time for stats on 2d6 And bring back the hey day of Terminator armour saves? Away with thee Rogue Trader, 'lest thy influence expand to the reintroduction of turning radius' for vehicles :P On topic a big: the FAQ changed a fair few things but I'm not entirely sure how big an effect it'll be or what the runoff will be for how it all coagulates together in an actual game. I know my Rhinos got less punchy, the knights didn't exactly get less punchy but they're even more pricey, and a fair few other things were addressed. That's good, I suppose. I'll admit I'm kinda surprised they went into the nitty gritty of why they felt the changes were needed. Happy about it as it at least feels like a modicum of transparency. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355599-big-faq-has-dropped/page/10/#findComment-5306325 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK0SIAN Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 GW have been clear that Bolter Discipline was meant to be an Astartes buff. All game stats put units into crude bands of broadly similar ability. A Battle Sister represents the peak ability of a trained mortal human; that’s unlikely to reach the potential of a transhuman warrior who can train 20 hours a day, yet both are BS3+. Bolter Discipline helps to distinguish them without breaking the game. (I’ll leave Custodes out of the discussion for now...) Having got my Grey Knights out and had my first ever games of 8th edition just a fortnight ago, I’m hardly a top-tier player but even to me the GK FAQ was a bit galling. The focus really seemed to be on closing the loopholes that still allowed for 2++ equivalent saves, without really considering whether those were having any significant effect on the balance of the game. So, from a GK player perspective, it felt like the codex’s (by consensus) bottom tier status was ignored and we were just hit by a series of petty nerfs. (Apart from getting Bolter Discipline, which my Terminators loved...) I think accusing GW of “malice” is silly, but I can see why some players start to feel that way and it would be good for GW to recognise that. Those loopholes were an exploit as best, and cheating at worst. It was an order of operation abuse of the rules and I don't care that it's gone. The problems with Grey Knights are more significant and I think they'll get a proper boost in a new codex. I think a lot of faith is being placed in possible new codexes for Space Marines and Grey Knights but I can’t see where the basis for that is coming from. GW have shown no indication that they think those armies are in need of anything other than minor tweaks so I’m not sure why people think they’ll be getting a new codex, let alone a vastly improved one. Again, it seems GW just doesn’t get it how bad some of the armies are in relation to others. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355599-big-faq-has-dropped/page/10/#findComment-5306328 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 GW is outright making the game better with each update, often at the expense of potential sales. The rule of 3 was a gameplay decision that would lower sales. Same thing with the Eldar soup nerf. Some people need to show a lot more appreciation than they are. I think this topic has become a great illustration of how a lot of hobbyists literally cannot see beyond their own noses, and their unreasonable attitudes don't deserve attention in some cases. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355599-big-faq-has-dropped/page/10/#findComment-5306341 Share on other sites More sharing options...
OttoVonAwesome Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 Chaos got a new codex it's safe to assume everyone will Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355599-big-faq-has-dropped/page/10/#findComment-5306343 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyr13 Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 Lastly I’m not sure it matters competitively but I’m happy they cleaned up the Guard and Chaos exceptions to the Rule of Three. It took awhile but at least we won’t have to think about seeing 9 Demon Princes or 9 of someone’s favorite artillery piece. I’m sure someone else might point to this as GW being behind the curve, and they were, but all I would ask is that we as a forum point out these kind of things without malice :D Whered you get the idea it limited IG artillery in any way? The text mentions that they went and looked for all instances of identical datasheets and lists them. The onlyunits affected are GSC units counting as non-cult in terms of unique datasheets. No mention of FW variants of tanks. So I could still bring 9 basilisks and 9 Armageddon basilisks, 3 tank commanders, 9 Leman Russ, 9 Conquerors, 9 Annihilators... you get the point. It doesnt touch squadrons either as far as I can tell. It just sucks for people who ran allied forgeworld regiments with non-fw regiments cause itll limit HWS, but apart from that... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355599-big-faq-has-dropped/page/10/#findComment-5306351 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK0SIAN Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 Chaos got a new codex it's safe to assume everyone will How is it safe to assume that? Chaos had a massive new model revamp to justify their codex. The same cannot be said for Grey Knights for example. The other side of it is that even if they do print a new codex for everyone the expectation that it will vastly improve certain armies seems based on nothing but hope. GW’s track record suggests they don’t think those armies are that weak and thus don’t need a big boost. If they do produce new codexes I don’t think much will change in them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355599-big-faq-has-dropped/page/10/#findComment-5306355 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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