Big FAQ has dropped.

[Panzer]

Beta rules often change. I think we set ourselves up for disappointment there...

Actually the opposite. I've expected it to get some more work before getting moved out of beta lol

[Sloeberjong]

 

 

Ishagu, i'm sorry brother, but this is a bunch of bull:cuss. Not everybody plays tournament style min max where you see the same OP stuff. So no, my DW primaris got nerfed for no other reason than freaking SB/SS :cusss taking it to the max.

 

 

Maybe your deathwatch aren't that great but they were still in less need of a buff than other loyalist marines. Sternguard aren't utterly invalidated anymore.

 

 

 

Fair enough, but still, my DW are now just as good at a distance as regular (primaris) marines for more points per model. The point is that GW once again throws out the baby with the bathwater. The real problem is the ability for Vets to all take stormbolters (and stormshields), for too little points cost. Limit that then. Because all the other options really weren't all that OP with or without BD. The SB/SS combo is still very powerful, so it didn't really get solved.

 

Honestly, GW are masters at overcomplicating and adding unnecessary rules. It could've been as simple as Adeptes Astartes treat Rapid Fire Bolters as always being in RF range (all units, no exceptions). Done. Yes, it's a bit more powerful as it is, but it's just bolters right? Is it really that big of an issue? I doubt it, marines could use a bit of a boost. I guess they just hate Marine Vehicles other than Dreadnoughts...

 

I mean, it may seem like a big issue to me, but it's not. Bolter Discipline makes all marines a bit better, after FAQ. So it's fine. It's just disappointing that certain choices don't really seem logical and they don't solve the actual problems. I feel like I'm starting to zone out of 40k once more because the rules are becoming unnecessarily complicated and more and more convoluted. I want to love 40k, I love the setting and the models. 8th is way better than it was, but it is slowly turning into a mess unfortunately. That's what's disappointing to me. You get a rule/boost, nice! But with the following exceptions.....uh...ok...why tho?

[Ishagu]

I think we'll eventually get a 2.0 rulebook and codex release which combines everything into one place.

[ERJAK]

I agree, but now I'm curious what other soups will rear its ugly head. Thats what soup is at the core, mix and match the best. Mix and match what now? At this point it's more of an issue of what armies can and cannot abuse soup. Obviously the ones that have zero allies cannot ever. Necrons, tau, and orks. Is a nerf necessary? No. And seemingly not in GW's eyes. But at least consider giving bonuses to armies that choose not to ally.

Whatever comes up won't be as good as the previous Castellan soup losts. That's why people ran Castellans.

[ERJAK]

I don't think imperium soup got as big a hit as you say. Sure 100p more and only a 4++ isn't nothing, but it's still a T8 W28 Sv4++ model with huge damage output that can easily keep shooting at peek performance for only little CP until it's dead for good. It's still a tough nut to crack for most armies.

 

The most interesting thing is really just to see how Eldar players will adjust.

4++ makes it killable on the first turn. That's all you really needed. The 100pts is just a cherry on top.

 

Part of what made the Castellan so ridiculously strong was the fact that most of the time you ignored it outside of forcing rotate ion shields because it was incredibly unlikely that you'd kill it first turn.

[Slasher956]

I think with the LRC, its more they (GW) have a vision of imperial vehicles that doesnt allow for sub-faction rules so when they realised that the Beta Bolter rule allowed vehicles to use it they've just shut it down rather than try and answer the question of why dont the vehicles get chapter tactics.

[Mekhitar]

Also, let’s be fair, the beta bolter change was more of a target in stomravens and dark talons, which it made a bit ridiculous.

 

But you are right - it was silly that marine rhinos got beta bolters and sororitas ones did not.

[Biscuittzz]

I'm sorry, but if people are really that concerned with a few S4 0AP shots from Crusader Hurricane Bolters, then you probably have bigger problems with your list...!

 

Also if you get within 12" (which as a transport, you'd hope) they still get the same shots!

 

Yes I am concerned. My 2x SR list has had it's anti-horde effective practically halved again. I've no where else to make that back up. And yes I do have bigger problems with my list, it's called Grey Knights.

 

Getting within 12" and under is counter charge/ melta range, so you'll be waving goodbye to those vehicles. The 24" range from the beta bolter rules for vehicles was as much a defensive buff as an offensive one, I think people severely overlook this.

 

A nerf to the stormraven was not needed, as it's overpriced still and usually a one and done unit. It's still paying the price for Guilliman being OP back at the start of 8th.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Biscuittzz

[Panzer]

I think with the LRC, its more they (GW) have a vision of imperial vehicles that doesnt allow for sub-faction rules so when they realised that the Beta Bolter rule allowed vehicles to use it they've just shut it down rather than try and answer the question of why dont the vehicles get chapter tactics.

Unlikely. Blood Angels even have a Stratagem for their vehicles.

[Marshal Reinhard]

honestly beta bolters were supposed to demonstrate astartes handheld mastery of the bolter weapon, it didn't make too much sense that it could be transferred to vehicles and then only to some vehicles. So it kinda makes sense if you ask me. 

[Kastor Krieg]

honestly beta bolters were supposed to demonstrate astartes handheld mastery of the bolter weapon, it didn't make too much sense that it could be transferred to vehicles and then only to some vehicles. So it kinda makes sense if you ask me. 

How does it make sense that an Ironclad's hurrican bolter pod gets the rule, but a Land Raider Crusader's one doesn't?

[SkimaskMohawk]

There's no real reason from a game design standpoint that marine vehicles shouldn't benefit from their chapter rules, when all of the elder ones do. Deathwatch is a different story if it came to siu applying to vehicle shots, but every other marine subfaction would only marginally benefit. Why does it make more sense for an alaitoc wave serpent to be harder to hit than a raven guard rhino?

[Hantheman]

And it is space marines manning the vehicles, no?

[Slasher956]

 

I think with the LRC, its more they (GW) have a vision of imperial vehicles that doesnt allow for sub-faction rules so when they realised that the Beta Bolter rule allowed vehicles to use it they've just shut it down rather than try and answer the question of why dont the vehicles get chapter tactics.

Unlikely. Blood Angels even have a Stratagem for their vehicles.

 

 

Stratagems aren't chapter tactics/sub faction rules.... most SM vehicles havent had access to chapter tactics since day 1 of 8th...

[Panzer]

 

 

I think with the LRC, its more they (GW) have a vision of imperial vehicles that doesnt allow for sub-faction rules so when they realised that the Beta Bolter rule allowed vehicles to use it they've just shut it down rather than try and answer the question of why dont the vehicles get chapter tactics.

Unlikely. Blood Angels even have a Stratagem for their vehicles.

 

 

Stratagems aren't chapter tactics/sub faction rules.... most SM vehicles havent had access to chapter tactics since day 1 of 8th...

 

 

How are sub faction specific Stratagems not sub faction rules?

I'm not saying most SM vehicles have or had access to chapter tactics. I'm just saying that the intention is unlikely to be not allowing sub faction rules for SM vehicles since there clearly are sub faction rules specifically designed for SM vehicles already.

Edited April 30, 2019 by sfPanzer

[Biscuittzz]

There's no real reason from a game design standpoint that marine vehicles shouldn't benefit from their chapter rules, when all of the elder ones do. Deathwatch is a different story if it came to siu applying to vehicle shots, but every other marine subfaction would only marginally benefit. Why does it make more sense for an alaitoc wave serpent to be harder to hit than a raven guard rhino?

 

Because a -1 to hit Rhino will be severely OP like the -3 to hit Eldar flyers. 

[Halandaar]

Yes I am concerned. My 2x SR list has had it's anti-horde effective practically halved again. 

 

Or rather, put back to the position it was 3 months ago before the Beta rule was introduced. 

 

Even then, it's only been halved if your Storm Ravens are the only Bolters in your army (which if you play GK, they aren't) and you are sitting them in the backfield as hovering turrets and they never get within 12" of an enemy the whole game (because they still get the full amount of shots in half range).

 

 

 

 

There's no real reason from a game design standpoint that marine vehicles shouldn't benefit from their chapter rules, when all of the elder ones do. Deathwatch is a different story if it came to siu applying to vehicle shots, but every other marine subfaction would only marginally benefit. Why does it make more sense for an alaitoc wave serpent to be harder to hit than a raven guard rhino?

 

I can only reason that this was they way they initially intended to do all factions (no Subfaction Tactics for vehicles) but changed their mind after the first few Codexes were done. It just happened that those first few were all Astartes books (Marines, Chaos, Grey Knights) and because of the overlap of vehicles across the varius Astartes armies, opted to release the newer books using the same format for the sake of consistency.

 

Why it hasn't been subsequently changed to be in line with the other races, I have no idea.

[MARK0SIAN]

 

I don't think imperium soup got as big a hit as you say. Sure 100p more and only a 4++ isn't nothing, but it's still a T8 W28 Sv4++ model with huge damage output that can easily keep shooting at peek performance for only little CP until it's dead for good. It's still a tough nut to crack for most armies.

 

The most interesting thing is really just to see how Eldar players will adjust.

4++ makes it killable on the first turn. That's all you really needed. The 100pts is just a cherry on top.

 

Part of what made the Castellan so ridiculously strong was the fact that most of the time you ignored it outside of forcing rotate ion shields because it was incredibly unlikely that you'd kill it first turn.

To be honest, I think being able to kill a model like a knight at 600 points in a single turn before it could even fire is too high an expectation. We are essentially saying we shouldn’t have anything in the game that can survive more than a single turn. These are meant to be hard to kill models. If people’s definition of OP is ‘I can’t kill this thing instantly before it can even move.’ Then I think balance like that will lead the game in a terrible direction.

 

Knights and other superheavies should be hard to deal with, it should be really unlikely that you’ll kill it first turn, and I’m not sure where this expectation that you should be able to kill one easily has come from. It certainly wasn’t the expectation in my games of previous editions.

Edited April 30, 2019 by MARK0SIAN

[Panzer]

 

 

I don't think imperium soup got as big a hit as you say. Sure 100p more and only a 4++ isn't nothing, but it's still a T8 W28 Sv4++ model with huge damage output that can easily keep shooting at peek performance for only little CP until it's dead for good. It's still a tough nut to crack for most armies.

 

The most interesting thing is really just to see how Eldar players will adjust.

4++ makes it killable on the first turn. That's all you really needed. The 100pts is just a cherry on top.

 

Part of what made the Castellan so ridiculously strong was the fact that most of the time you ignored it outside of forcing rotate ion shields because it was incredibly unlikely that you'd kill it first turn.

To be honest, I think being able to kill a model like a knight at 600 points in a single turn before it could even fire is too high an expectation. We are essentially saying we shouldn’t have anything in the game that can survive more than a single turn. These are meant to be hard to kill models. If people’s definition of OP is ‘I can’t kill this thing instantly before it can even move.’ Then I think balance like that will lead the game in a terrible direction.

 

Knights and other superheavies should be hard to deal with and I’m not sure where this expectation that you should be able to kill one easily has come from. It certainly wasn’t the expectation in my games of previous editions.

 

 

Completely agreed. The incredibly high ranged damage output of 40k is a reason why many people moved away from it anyway. People don't like having their awesome centerpiece models taken out turn 1 before they can do anything.

The problem though is that these models themselves also have such high damage output that you are basically forced to be able to take them out turn 1 if you want to be competetive.

It all needs to be taken a few pegs down imo. Just imagine how awesome it would be if your Knights, Landraiders, Greater Daemons and what not can survive for most of the game without it being an auto-win if they do so.

[Lexington]

Well, laugh all you like, but both are true. GW see ALL the feedback, whereas you only see what you specifically engage with.

Well, they have all the feedback that’s given to them. The unfortunate nature of people and public feedback meaning that this is often going to be contextless, wildly biased, filled with utterly nonsense assumptions and, often as not, just a pack of wild lies.

 

A thousand tweenlets mashing their keyboards to explain how it’s totally not fair that their brother’s LRC shot up a Boyz squad that they left in an unprotected midfield is not worth a single analysis of the overall meta by a reasonably well-informed player. One is noise, one is signal, and being able to weed out one from the other is literally the most baseline skill required to begin to engage with mass public feedback.

 

I don’t know if GW has that skillset on-hand or not. Regardless, 40K’s 8th Edition is hardly a mysterious or complex entity that must be rigorously and publicly tested to understand the effects of any one change. It’s an incredibly simple, basic, baby’s-first-wargame experience, very consciously so, and it’s been out in the wild for nearly two years at this point. Anyone who’s got a decently systems-focused mindset and an overall idea of the game’s history can see where problems are going to emerge without a whole lot of trouble.

 

I don’t know why GW makes some of the decisions they do, but the assumption that they have an incredible view into the overall game experience because of access to an open, unregulated and structureless feedback system is definitely not a correct one.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Lexington

[Lemondish]

I agree that some factions still need more substantial alterations but those will come with a new codex. Neither the FAQ nor Chapter Approved has really changed the way armies play beyond toning down the most egregious combinations of rules or units. If this FAQ funnels more forces into the category of winning 45%-55% of games then it's succeeded. I don't think that the existing lists that win the overwhelming majority of games will continue to do so.

 

I have a prediction that Knights will be deminished significantly and that Castellans will remain popular as the model is widely in circulation but it won't be involved in any more major tournament winning lists. It's swung a bit to the point where destroying it is a likely outcome for the right list in the initial turn, and that's too much of a gamble. You can't base a winning strategy over having to go first in every game to neutralise key threats or be destroyed. Imo the 4++ cap to the Ion shield was all that it needed, but at least using one won't lead to accusations of power gaming anymore

[Ishagu]

In regards to the Castellan, the point cost affects it's ability to fit into lists. It's CP hunger makes you think twice, and now the fact that if CAN be killed in turn 1 will balance it's inclusions in the game.

 

I'm not saying that it will always be destroyed on turn 1 or that you shouldn't be taking it, I'm pointing out that the risk/reward of the unit will now moderate it's popularity and use.

 

I'll still use it because I love the model and I love my AdMech and Knights list which is very thematic and looks great on the tabletop.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Ishagu

[Hantheman]

 

Well, laugh all you like, but both are true. GW see ALL the feedback, whereas you only see what you specifically engage with.

Well, they have all the feedback that’s given to them. The unfortunate nature of people and public feedback meaning that this is often going to be contextless, wildly biased, filled with utterly nonsense assumptions and, often as not, just a pack of wild lies.

 

A thousand tweenlets mashing their keyboards to explain how it’s totally not fair that their brother’s LRC shot up a Boyz squad that they left in an unprotected midfield is not worth a single analysis of the overall meta by a reasonably well-informed player. One is noise, one is signal, and being able to weed out one from the other is literally the most baseline skill required to begin to engage with mass public feedback.

 

I don’t know if GW has that skillset on-hand or not. Regardless, 40K’s 8th Edition is hardly a mysterious or complex entity that must be rigorously and publicly tested to understand the effects of any one change. It’s an incredibly simple, basic, baby’s-first-wargame experience, very consciously so, and it’s been out in the wild for nearly two years at this point. Anyone who’s got a decently systems-focused mindset and an overall idea of the game’s history can see where problems are going to emerge without a whole lot of trouble.

 

I don’t know why GW makes some of the decisions they do, but the assumption that they have an incredible view into the overall game experience because of access to an open, unregulated and structureless feedback system is definitely not a correct one.

 

 

Christ, even with structured feedback  GW released the Necron codex a week after Drukhari codex and that was tested by their apparently "top player" player testers and no-one noticed the gulf in quality. Balance is not GWs main strength.

 

Anyway back to the FAQ. Overall some smart changes. The bigger issues can not be dealt with without a full new edition IMO

Edited April 30, 2019 by Hantheman

[MajorNese]

 

There's no real reason from a game design standpoint that marine vehicles shouldn't benefit from their chapter rules, when all of the elder ones do. Deathwatch is a different story if it came to siu applying to vehicle shots, but every other marine subfaction would only marginally benefit. Why does it make more sense for an alaitoc wave serpent to be harder to hit than a raven guard rhino?

 

Because a -1 to hit Rhino will be severely OP like the -3 to hit Eldar flyers.

Let's face it - dreads are harder to hit than rhinos because they have enough limbs to sneak. Now imagine a redemptor on its tiptoes, using the fist to keep the camo cloak from falling off, or crawling through the bushes - that's stealth in perfection...no seriously, it makes no sense at all. Astartes vehicles hardly have any useful special rules, which becomes rather lopsided when comparing them to other similar units - las Predator vs. Onager for example has a clear winner.

[Ishagu]

I'm 100% in agreement that Astartes need chapter tactics across all units.

 

The tactics need to be reworked so they can benefit vehicles correctly or to provide other buffs.

 

It's one thing that sets the Marine books behind other factions for no reason.