thoughts on venatari in competitive setting?

[nastavious]

as title says what are peoples thoughts on these guys?

are they worth it?

they did get a little better with the faq and how fly works now. 

[TheFinisher4Ever]

I've tried the Vinatari a couple of times and they are a decent unit. The problem is that they are competing with bikes. For 24 more points per model, the GW bikes get +2" M, +1 T, +1 W, +1 A, +1 Ld, +1 Sv and an automatic 6" advance. They also get a faaar superior melee weapon and an arguably better shooting weapon in the hurricane bolter. Yes, they got better with the FAQ, but so did the bikes.

 

Don't get me wrong, they are certainly playable. You can use them and have fun with them. But they need to be a bit cheaper to be a competitive choice.

[wildweasel]

And you need to really keep an eye open to leverage the main advantage they have over bikes: getting into ruins.

[Danarc]

According to mathhammer, 3 venetari (with pistols and buckler - spears are wors on every aspect) can deal a total of 83,19 damage (melee+shooting) against 8+10 targets (T8/2+, T8/3+, T7/3+, T6/3+, T5/2+/3W, T4/2+/2W, T4/3+/1W, T3/5+/1W in melee and against the same plus T7/3+/fly, T6/3+/fly for shooting), that means 0,42 damage per point. The same calculation made for 3 vertus praetors gives a total of 110,22 that means 0,408 damage per point. 

This means that Venetari are the Custodes third efficient unit per point after Aquilon (0,505) and Wardens (0,422) and Vertus praetors are the fifth after Achillus (0,412 - I know this is laughing, but that's the math, baby). 

BUT if we are going to see the damage for point against infantry models (T5/2+/3W, T4/2+/2W, T4/3+/1W, T3/5+/1W) the total is 0,2377 for Vertus (second after Aquilon) and 0,2308 for venetari.

 

This means that from a mathematically point of view venetari and vertus praetors are quite equivalent and I believe that both could find a place in a Custodes list, since the former could be really useful for taking objective (especially on the ruin's floors) being practically ignored by the opponent, while the latter could keep on doing the work did until now, but now the presence of venetari could help filling an outrider detachment.

 

Anyway,warhammer isn't math, as the above mentioned Achillus efficiency shows, so this would be only a useful contribution to the discussion and not a definitive statement.

[Ezr91aeL]

I'm quite of the idea that more than the points efficency what makes a unit strong is it's ability to fullfil its role, and that's the problem with Venatari: I don't understand wich role should they fill. Anyway I'm not an expert, so someone may explain it to me.

[Danarc]

I do agree with you. The role is absolutely more important than the point efficiency (look at that poor Achillus). This is why I underlined that the point per damage evaluation is only a contribution to the discussion.

 

About the venetari role, Someone in this forum used sagittarum to fulfil a spearhead detachment. From this point of view I think that the role of venetari could be similar. Fulfilling an outrider detachment (at the price of 31 points more than 3 custodian guards), would be nice.

Moreover some custodes army need mobility to take objectives. In this case, and this is more effective with the new FAQ about fly, venetari can have this role.

 

In conclusion I see that, without considering the point per damage chart, venetari could be useful for granting mobility while the opponent attention is focalized on others models (telemon, caladium, that aquilons that are kicking his ass...) and they could be your hidden knife since in combat they are really good. At the same time, in cover they can resist as guards or sagittarum can do against AP-1 weapons. 

[Ezr91aeL]

I do agree with you. The role is absolutely more important than the point efficiency (look at that poor Achillus). This is why I underlined that the point per damage evaluation is only a contribution to the discussion.

 

About the venetari role, Someone in this forum used sagittarum to fulfil a spearhead detachment. From this point of view I think that the role of venetari could be similar. Fulfilling an outrider detachment (at the price of 31 points more than 3 custodian guards), would be nice.

Moreover some custodes army need mobility to take objectives. In this case, and this is more effective with the new FAQ about fly, venetari can have this role.

 

In conclusion I see that, without considering the point per damage chart, venetari could be useful for granting mobility while the opponent attention is focalized on others models (telemon, caladium, that aquilons that are kicking his ass...) and they could be your hidden knife since in combat they are really good. At the same time, in cover they can resist as guards or sagittarum can do against AP-1 weapons. 

Well, but if your target is to fill a Fast Attack slot wouldn't be better a Pallas Grav-Attack? 100 pts, shoots well, quite tought. If it wasn't for its money price I would deploy three of them in a single squad!

[TheFinisher4Ever]

The damage they put out may be similar, but the comparison to bikes can't be based on damage alone. The bikes are also far more survivable. +1 toughness, +1 wound and +1 armor save. In addition, the bikes are far faster with +2" of movement and an auto 6" advance.

[Danarc]

 

I do agree with you. The role is absolutely more important than the point efficiency (look at that poor Achillus). This is why I underlined that the point per damage evaluation is only a contribution to the discussion.

 

About the venetari role, Someone in this forum used sagittarum to fulfil a spearhead detachment. From this point of view I think that the role of venetari could be similar. Fulfilling an outrider detachment (at the price of 31 points more than 3 custodian guards), would be nice.

Moreover some custodes army need mobility to take objectives. In this case, and this is more effective with the new FAQ about fly, venetari can have this role.

 

In conclusion I see that, without considering the point per damage chart, venetari could be useful for granting mobility while the opponent attention is focalized on others models (telemon, caladium, that aquilons that are kicking his ass...) and they could be your hidden knife since in combat they are really good. At the same time, in cover they can resist as guards or sagittarum can do against AP-1 weapons. 

Well, but if your target is to fill a Fast Attack slot wouldn't be better a Pallas Grav-Attack? 100 pts, shoots well, quite tought. If it wasn't for its money price I would deploy three of them in a single squad!

 

In my opinion, pallas is not so useful. it is cheap and has better toughness, same armour, less movement and invulnerable and it is quite difficult to hide/cover. Moreover, it is almost useless in cac and his damage per point is 0,1838 versus 0,4202 for venetari. In my opinion, it is one of the worst options for custodes. 

 

The damage they put out may be similar, but the comparison to bikes can't be based on damage alone. The bikes are also far more survivable. +1 toughness, +1 wound and +1 armor save. In addition, the bikes are far faster with +2" of movement and an auto 6" advance.

That's true. And I'm not saying that venetari are better than Vertus. I am giving an overview and I am answering about their role. 

 

Anyway, for a complete comparison I evaluated (but not from a mathematical point of view, since it couldn't be objective) also the following aspects:

- Toughness: 5 for venetari and 6 for vertus

- TS: 3 for venetari and 2 for vertus, with an Invulnerable equal to 4 for both. This means that weapons with AP -1 hit both equal (TS 3+). weapons with AP -2 and better hit both equal (TS 4++). The only difference is with AP0 weapons, in which case vertus are better.

- wounds: 9 for venetari and 12 for vertus

- movement: 12 for venetari and 14 for vertus

- fly: both got it

- cover: easy to cover or hide for venetari, quite difficult/impossible for vertus

- detachment: both unlocked 1/3 of outrider.

- OS: both have it

- various: venetari have buckler and DS while vetus have implacable vanguard.

 

This makes bikes tougher and faster, but harder to hide. This confirms, in my opinion, that both units could have a place in a custodes list with different roles. 

[shanewatts]

I agree that they are not as good as bikes, but as said above they have a different role.

 

I have had success with them in local tournaments, but they tend to be a little more cagey then bikes. I used them more as a harassment unit, able to steal objectives and get into hidden units easily (with being infantry.)

 

In my mind they are custodian guard that fly, with a better shooting attack. With having the movement increase and innate deepstrike they can be relevant right away vs having to spend CP to deepstrike, having to slog up the field, or just sitting back on an objective. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

How many do you run per squad and how do you kit them Shane ?

[shanewatts]

I try to run at least 5 in a squad, and bump it to 6 if I have the points. The pistol build is better all rounder and while the spears are closer to how normal guard would work (elite hunting.)

[noigrim]

The bikes are also key fir sprinting into the enemy and stealing objectives with obsec