Primaris Space Marine Numbers

[Ishagu]

So- Cawl managed to get the same info if not more than Corax got in the HH, BEFORE Corax went to fetch it? I am confused with the timing now of all this.

The Astartes Corax made were much more powerful than Primaris.

[Panzer]

So- Cawl managed to get the same info if not more than Corax got in the HH, BEFORE Corax went to fetch it? I am confused with the timing now of all this. 

 

Considering it took about 10k years for Cawl to create all the Primaris I think it's safe to say that even if he had some prior knowledge due working together with big E, he spend a lot of time gathering notes and experimenting before he finally 'cracked the code' to how the whole geneseed thing works. I doubt he had all the data he needed available right from the beginning.

[Robbienw]

I doubt he got the sangprimus thing with the original primarch dna materials until after the heresy, considering his appearance in Wolfsbane. He probably acquired it during the scouring via gulliman.

[MegaVolt87]

 

So- Cawl managed to get the same info if not more than Corax got in the HH, BEFORE Corax went to fetch it? I am confused with the timing now of all this.

The Astartes Corax made were much more powerful than Primaris.

 

 

Is this in new lore? I haven't read any of the new M42 era 40k novels. Primaris have 2/3 of the primarch organs though? 

[Ishagu]

The way Corax's Raptors were described in the lore indicates a level or combat ability far, far higher.

 

Primaris are tougher and stronger but not to the same disparity as the Raptors. I could be wrong of course, it's been a while since I read up on them.

[Lord_Caerolion]

The way Corax's Raptors were described in the lore indicates a level or combat ability far, far higher.

 

Primaris are tougher and stronger but not to the same disparity as the Raptors. I could be wrong of course, it's been a while since I read up on them.

 

The thing is, how could we actually tell that? The books just state that they're a bit better, but don't indicate by how much. Forge World haven't given stats to units of Raptors yet, so we don't even have that to go off. Essentially, we're given two different things both described as "Marines, but a bit better", with no way to actually judge the differences. For all we know, the Raptors have the Magnificat, but lack the Furnace and Coils.

[Brother Quixote]

 

The way Corax's Raptors were described in the lore indicates a level or combat ability far, far higher.

 

Primaris are tougher and stronger but not to the same disparity as the Raptors. I could be wrong of course, it's been a while since I read up on them.

 

The thing is, how could we actually tell that? The books just state that they're a bit better, but don't indicate by how much. Forge World haven't given stats to units of Raptors yet, so we don't even have that to go off. Essentially, we're given two different things both described as "Marines, but a bit better", with no way to actually judge the differences. For all we know, the Raptors have the Magnificat, but lack the Furnace and Coils.

 

 

I see this sort of misunderstanding about the Raptors and Corax's project a lot.  According to Deliverance Lost the intent was not to improve or alter the Astartes in any way, but to speed up the implantation process so the Raven Guard numbers could rapidly replenish their losses.

 

They used information and material from the primarch project to do so and were successful in that aim.  As a side effect the first Raptors ended up marginally stronger and had quicker reflexes than their brothers, but this advantage was negligable once in power armour.

 

The project was then sabotaged by alpha legion operatives, introducing warp stuff which resulted in mutations in all but the first small test batch of Raptors.  The Raptors are only stronger, tougher and faster due to warp taint and mutation which turns them eventually into unthinking beasts.

 

Completely different to Cawl's intentionally improved Primaris.

 

Kind of on topic: If I wanted to read up on Primaris origin lore and numbers, which books do I need to look at apart from Dark Imperium?  Maybe I'll get around to it.

[MegaVolt87]

So Corax managed to further stabilize the RG's legions base geneseed to have a much better implant success rate on candidates, enhancing its uniqueness to boot increasing their physical prowess a bit as a side effect. Thats how I am seeing it now anyway at this stage. 

[Lord_Caerolion]

Basically yes. I mean, it never really implied that there were different organs used in the creation of the Raptors, more that they were more efficient.

[sarabando]

so if they used them to plug gaps does that mean they cross used gene seed? could you now see a dark skinned primaris from vulkans lineage in the blood angels for example?

[Panzer]

so if they used them to plug gaps does that mean they cross used gene seed? could you now see a dark skinned primaris from vulkans lineage in the blood angels for example?

 

No, as far as we know Primaris got made with basically the purest geneseed samples seen since the horus heresy (Cawl even got rid of the flaws that weren't intended like the Red Thirst and the Canis Helix). However there is no reason why Blood Angels couldn't be dark skinned as well. Just not Salamanders charcoal skinned.

[MegaVolt87]

Looking more into it, kymeric geneseed is not really possible in the initial primaris batches so far. Cawl has used the initial 9 loyalist legions stocks refined, cataloged who is who to hand out to known successors. Having say BA and sallies genestock becoming kymeric would be a disaster. If anything, he has used traitor gene stock anyway for new exclusively primaris chapters, despite being told not to. Just look at sons of the phoenix. He obviously lies and says oh its Imperial Fists or Ultras etc where applicable to cover himself obviously. No Lord G those pale featured shifty primaris are clearly RG not NL sucessors, I am an obedient cog boy. 

[Jerethdatiger]

It's worth remembering that the primaris are designed to have a. 001% CHANCE of genetic deviation per generation they are designed from ultra pure genestock and with resistance to mutation in mind

[Robbienw]

The Blood Ravens index astartes article in the new WD (July 2019) concurs with the numbers of Primaris Marines created by cawl being in the tens of thousands.

 

“In a tense meeting, the custodes stated that Roboute Gulliman had returned and that what they called Primaris Space Marines were fighting for the Imperium in the tens of thousands”

[Marshal Rohr]

Glad to see some consistency!

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Not all of the Primaris were made by Cawl, the Emperor's Spears made their own once they were given the instructions. So that would add to the starting numbers.

 

(The same would apply to the Celestial Lions)

[Robbienw]

Yeah we know Adelard. But we were talking originally in this thread about the original numbers of Primaris Marines made by Cawl and deployed and gifted to chapters in the Indomitus Crusade. New Primaris made by chapters aren’t part of that number.

[Robbienw]

Glad to see some consistency!

Yeah. It’s actually stated twice in this WD. There is a short story about the Blood Ravens who met the emeritus custodes, and the custodes sheild captain states that Primaris Marines fight for the imperium in their tens of thousands.

 

Interestingly the Blood Ravens don’t receive any of Cawls ready made Primaris. They just get geneseed and the technology to make Primaris.

 

That technology includes a dozen Mechanicus magi and hundred of various medicae personnel and thralls to be incorporated into the Blood Ravens to be able to do it.

 

The Blood Raven are given enough geneseed to make ‘over a hundred’ aspirants.

 

Many years after the meeting with the custodes takes place, the Blood Ravens are described as having ‘hundreds’ of Primaris Marines.

[Claws and Effect]

so if they used them to plug gaps does that mean they cross used gene seed? could you now see a dark skinned primaris from vulkans lineage in the blood angels for example?

No.

 

The Salamanders dark skin is the result of the radiation on Nocturne, not an inherent trait of Vulkan's geneseed. It stands to reason that Vulkan himself was also not intended to have coal black skin and glowing eyes. Any Salamanders geneseed used on aspirants that aren't Nocturnean would have skin tone normal for wherever they're from.

[Boldthreat]

We’re all of the Spears in that novel Primaris? I do not remember if any were shown to be of the first generation or not. Even if mentioned in passing.

 

What I would like to see, given the amount of time that has passed since the Indomitus Crusade, is how long it would take a Chapter to transition to Primaris only.

 

I’m not saying they don’t exist, just in what capacity at this point?

[Blindhamster]

All the ones mentioned are primaris and the main character even thinks on the fact she didn't see any that were not. But I don't think the entire chapter are meant to be.

[Boldthreat]

No I agree with you on that point. I know it spoke of the Chapter Master but did it clarify what he was? I would imagine he were first generation.

 

But the Captain was Primaris. And that’s a huge thing considering that the Spears did not get any experienced Primaris from the Indomitus Crusade. They were made in house.

 

This is mostly for DIY reasoning. This is a Chapter cut off from any reinforcement from the Imperium for the most part. Yet an entire Company is full Primaris and their equipment. But they also have a forgeworld nearby, I’m sure that helps as well. It would be great to see the hard data on how fast a Chapter would transition to all Primaris once the process of making their own begins. With older characters taking the plunge now... how much time, realistically does the First Generation as a whole have? Especially given the state of the Galaxy.

 

I know I lean on the aggressive replacement approach. But I’d like to see how GW sees it happening.

[Marshal Rohr]

What would be the point of making old ones if they can make and equip the newer ones? It’s been a hundred years. They might’ve been mixed before, they aren’t going to be now with their attrition rates.

[Boldthreat]

What would be the point of making old ones if they can make and equip the newer ones? It’s been a hundred years. They might’ve been mixed before, they aren’t going to be now with their attrition rates.

Good question. But supposedly the Blood Angels still make the traditional kind. Supposedly the Chapters do so to use existing equipment and strategems. This is nonsense. If a chapter with no support and not a single Primaris reinforcement can predominantly switch to an all Primaris chapter and equip itself accordingly... then the ones in a better location and who were blessed to be reinforced directly from the Indomitus Crusade should be almost complete if not there within 100 years. Right?

 

It’s not a nefarious decision mind you. It’s not like the gen 1s are forcibly retired to open billets via the Emperors peace. 100 years in the most brutal period of the Imperium should make it automatic.

[War Angel]

I say it would take 800 years for 95% of a full strength chapter to be converted to Primaris. Space marines can easily live for a thousand years. Chapter masters do not often die. I the past it would take 300 years (marked by service studs) to become a captain. Some of the higher ranking members of the chapter are not as frequently in the combat, namely the reserves, and their officers. Even though times are at their worst, a good number of chapters are probably not loosing the bulk of their forces.

 

I used to be a pool operator. It takes the filter an hour to cycle through about a third of the pool. So a mathematician may tell you it takes 3 hours to filter the entire pool. Well, he would be wrong. It takes 10 hours, because the second hour isn’t filtering an entire new third of the water.

 

If a company suffers 20 casualties per battle, the majority of those casualties will be the least experienced, as experience gives you tools to survive better. New Primaris marines, while stronger than those they replace, will likely be taking a good portion of those casualties, and the veterans will die out slower.

 

800 years.