Plasmagun vs gravgun

[Demoulius]

Hey all,

 

Having never used gravguns because I havent really played when they were an option for me, I dont have any models equipped with them. Ive come back to the hobby after a few years of hiatus. While browsing the codex I noticed that both plasmaguns and gravguns have their own merit vs MEQ.

 

Both plasmagun and gravgun wound and kill MEQ equally easy. Both on 3's. Both also have the same AP. The gravgun does D3 damage vs the 1 wound the plasmagun does. The plasmagun can overcharge though to wound on 2's and do 2 damage flat, for the risk of blowing up your own marines. Plasmaguns also have slightly longer range and wound things T5-T6 more easily.

 

Anyway, I wonder which guns people favour? I did keep in contact with friends who did play while I was on my hiatus and I heard that gravguns were very good and all over the place. How is that now and what place do gravguns fill? I think they had a special rule earlier but all I see now is that on 3+ saves and better they do more wounds?

[GrinNfool]

Think generally as far as grav guns go you are better off using plasmaguns.  There are some odd situations where a grav is better but they are so few and far between that they aren't worth losing out on the 12" rapid fire (grav gun can't rapid fire out of DS), or the ability to overcharge not to mention the much wider variety of targets the plasma can threaten being able to go to strength 8.  Plasma is just far more versatile and so outweighs the chance of running into something the grav is better vs.  Gravgun honestly should be about.... 6-7 points then there might be some talking points to this.

[MARK0SIAN]

Yeah, plasma is just better in a wider variety of situations than the grav. Grav just doesn’t really have anything going for it at the points cost. D3 damage against 3+ (Aside from being a pretty mediocre ability) is super unreliable as it’s bonus ability, especially considering all the drawbacks in terms of range and strength.

[Finkmilkana]

The only good grav in 8th that I can think off is the Ad Mech one that’s has about 40% more shots on average than the relevant plasma. Other than that, grav is usually not worth it.

[Karhedron]

Yup, plasma all the way. Running an HQ that allows you to reroll 1s to-Hit (e.g. Space Marine Captain) will mitigate the risk of overheating if you need to overcharge to take down tougher targets.

[Hantheman]

The main problem with the grav gun is range and delivery. 

[DanPesci]

The only good grav in 8th that I can think off is the Ad Mech one that’s has about 40% more shots on average than the relevant plasma. Other than that, grav is usually not worth it.

 

Yep on kataphrons the heavy grav cannons can actually compete against the plasma culverins (5 shots every time vs d6 shots a time - with overheating removing 3 wound models). 

 

Theres a discussion about it over in the admech forum just now. As the maths turns out that the HGC is actually pretty much just as good against knight level targets as the plasma.

 

In most other armies/circumstances, you want plasma though. Grav was king in 7th but was reined back in.

[Karhedron]

I never bought into the Grav wave in 7th so I am pleased that my assorted plasma gunners are worth taking again but I do feel that Grav has been over-nerfed to compensate for how ubiquitous it was in 7th (same thing has happened to other high powered units like Wraithknights).

[Ultramarine vet]

Yup, plasma all the way. Running an HQ that allows you to reroll 1s to-Hit (e.g. Space Marine Captain) will mitigate the risk of overheating if you need to overcharge to take down tougher targets.

Thats exactly what I was gonna post. Plasma works so well for me. A captain near a devastator squad with 4 plasma cannons, makes for some amazing firepower. And also, I have yet to kill one of my guys super charging (knock on wood), and I do it all the time, with captains or Guilliman near, of course.

 

The only grav I have is grav cannons on my centurions. Which allows them to wipe out whole units of heavily armored infantry and tanks.

[Demoulius]

Hmmm seems to confirm what I noticed myself then so what did it have in 7th edition that made it so good?

[Ultramarine vet]

Hmmm seems to confirm what I noticed myself then :huh: so what did it have in 7th edition that made it so good?

In 7th ed, grav weapons would wound you according to your save value. If you had a 2+ save, it would wound you on a 2+. I believe it was meant show how grav guns actually worked, which is squishing you with your own armor. And I believe you got no save from it. Regardless of your armor. Needless to say, it was much better against heavily armored targets.

 

I believe they also had more shots, and they were classified as "salvo" instead of rapid fire or heavy, etc. A grav gun was I think salvo 2/3, which meant 2 shots moving, 3 shots if standing still. And grav cannons I think were salvo 4/5, following the same thing with the grav gun. I admit they were very interesting in 7th, for sure.

 

However, I am one of the people that think grav got better in 8th, in terms of flexibility, but it still loses out to plasma. For me, plasma has always been the very best at eliminating heavy armor, and now that plasma, when not supercharged, doesn't harm your troops, has made it sooo much better. They will kill chaos marines, and similarly armored infantry models with 1 wound all day with no drawbacks. And if you do supercharge them, just have a captain/chapter master nearby and you're good, if you don't have the worst luck in the world, that is.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Ultramarine vet

[Karhedron]

Hmmm seems to confirm what I noticed myself then so what did it have in 7th edition that made it so good?

 

In 7th edition, it was a hard-counter to many of the best units in the game such as Wraithknights and other big monsters. Because of the way the vehicle damage tables at the time worked, it was a lot easier to kill a vehicle than a multi-wound beast. Grav hit such things hard by bypassing both toughness and armour.

 

In 8th, Grav has been made very good at  killing elite infantry such as Marines. The problem is that plasma is almost as good here and much better against tougher targets. It doesn't help that elite infantry armies are not  exactly setting the meta alight at the moment.

[MegaVolt87]

So, by this pattern in 9th ed we will see a plasma nerf and grav make a comeback. Or we see volkite in 9th, which will be even more broken than 8th plasma and 7th grav. I myself and probably many others would be fine with this because CHOOM!! 

[Halandaar]

Hmmm seems to confirm what I noticed myself then so what did it have in 7th edition that made it so good?

 

In addition to what others have mentioned (ignoring armour and toughness), they were Salvo weapons which meant they got more shots when stationary, and could be taken en-masse by Bike Squads and Command Squads on Bikes (which had a special rule where they counted as stationary for the purposes of firing weapons), so you could quickly deliver them where you needed and get maximum shots out of them too.

 

Comparatively, Plasma was also worse than it is now in that it always wounded the bearer on a hit roll of 1, unlike today's rules where that only happens if you choose to overcharge the weapon.

[Ultramarine vet]

Except if you roll a 1 on supercharged plasma now, you don't even suffer a wound. You're slain. Yikes on a captain, but shouldn't happen with the aura.

[Maschinenpriester]

Had it happen to my lord in terminator armour once. very unlikely to happen (1:36) but very unpleasant.

[Exilyth]

Plasma has a better combination of power, range and cost than grav.

Tbh it's the (lack of) range that kills grav for me.

 

 

When I returned to 40k near the end of 7th, I was more concerned with building up my guard army than rebuilding my (then mothballed) space marines and thus didn't care much about grav. I considered grav at the start of 8th when I dusted off my marines - since it was a new weapon to me then - and was immediately cured of "shiny new stuff" syndrome when I looked at the range stat.

[Ultramarine vet]

I can't understand for the life of me why a grav gun is more expensive than a plasmagun. There is your reason why I have no grav guns whatsoever in my tactical squads or bikers.

 

Even if I know I'll be fighting a ton of chaos terminators, I'll still run plasma instead. Much higher strength, which also means they can tank hunt.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Ultramarine vet

[Subtleknife]

The problem is compounded by the fact that in it's current form plasma is to good. It is great at killing heavy and light vehicles as well as elite infantry. Imo I would like to see it st5 ap1 d1 normal and st7 ap2 d2 overcharged. That way it is a good elite and light vehicle killer but not quite as good as heavy.

[Ultramarine vet]

With space marines not in a good place right now, I think nurfing plasma is the last thing we need. IMO, its not OP. But the grav gun being overpriced, is the problem. Can't take so much away from plasma just because the grav gun isn't so great. Edited May 10, 2019 by Ultramarine vet

[GrinNfool]

The problem is compounded by the fact that in it's current form plasma is to good. It is great at killing heavy and light vehicles as well as elite infantry. Imo I would like to see it st5 ap1 d1 normal and st7 ap2 d2 overcharged. That way it is a good elite and light vehicle killer but not quite as good as heavy.

Um, strongly disagree, couldn't disagree more honestly lol.  I think plasma could go up a point or 2 if its REALLY needed, and I don't think it is.  I think nerfing its ap and str by 2 is gross overkill on something that IF it needs anything needs a tap... not a sledge hammer lol.  Honestly if grav was 6-7 points it would be costed appropriately, and do what its supposed to, be anti elite, with some use as AV in a pinch.  Not like this meta is being dominated by plasma.

Edited May 10, 2019 by GrinNfool

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The only place I rate grav guns is in units where you're not planning on having reroll support. Captain rerolls are so critical to plasma's success by mitigating the drawback to overcharging, that having a weapon capable of the same general target profile that doesn't need that mitigation has it's own perks.

 

But yeah, grav needs to come down in price for sure.

[MARK0SIAN]

The problem is compounded by the fact that in it's current form plasma is to good. It is great at killing heavy and light vehicles as well as elite infantry. Imo I would like to see it st5 ap1 d1 normal and st7 ap2 d2 overcharged. That way it is a good elite and light vehicle killer but not quite as good as heavy.

A plasma gun being the same Strength, AP and Damage as a heavy bolter whilst having less shots? That makes no sense, in terms of fluff and crunch they have always been excellent at punching through heavy armour. They’re weapons that are meant to scare Terminators!

 

This doesn’t seem like an adjustment or even a nerf, this seems like ‘I just want plasma guns gone from the game.’ Grav is ludicrously overcosted for what it does but the answer to that is either make grav better or reduce its cost, not kill off the thing that outperforms it.

 

The real issue with plasma is not that the gun performs well, it’s that it’s so ubiquitous. The amount of plasma an army can bring to bear is way more than we’ve ever seen outside of Heresy games. Add in the fact that most armies have very easy access to rerolls means it’s downside can be minimised quite well and you end up with plasma being the king in more situations than is probably healthy for the game overall. Plasma should be a strong and devastating weapon, it’s just that somewhere along the way the designers forgot it was also meant to be quite rare too.

Edited May 10, 2019 by MARK0SIAN

[Volt]

It's funny seeing as how in lore a Grav Gun is among the most powerful non-heavy weapons you can carry and just a single blast from it is enough to reduce something the size of a Leman Russ to a refrigerator. Yet when you take it up against an actual Leman Russ it barely scratches the paint off.

 

IMO the issue with Grav is that it just doesn't even make sense in its current form because it's just gakkier plasma. It should instead be a less powerful version of a meltagun with more shots. Rapid Fire 1, S7, AP-2, and flat D3 damage with 14".

[Schlitzaf]

Honeslty? I think Grav should be Rapid 2. Or be something like Rapid 1 “when s model shoots with this weapon it may fire an additional shot using it.”

 

Be an interesting contrast to Plasma then