What if GW had won the case against Chapterhouse Studios?

[Marshal Rohr]

I’ll be the first to admit I’m using copyright as an imprecise catch all for ‘legal status that prevents others from using it for profit or without permission’ whatever that term might be.

[Bryan Blaire]

Understood, but there actually is no status that prevents that without action on the part of the IP generator/holder. That’s part of the reason that GW gets litigious - they can always point to C&D letters to say to the courts “Nope, look, we’ve been defending what we say is ours, so you can’t just strip us of it without a hearing” if they have to go so far as to pursue a case like the Chapterhouse one again. Permission by inaction on the part of an IP holder can be a strong argument in court for a content creator to claim as a protection against a trademark claimant, but their attorneys better have their case buttoned up showing there has been no legal activity regarding the trademark.

 

And while there might be an overall winner or loser in these kinds of cases, many times what they really do is establish the lines “for fair play” - the Chapterhouse case was actually really important for GW because it told GW Corp where the lines really were, what the courts would actually support them defending, and what was determined as GW over-reaching.

[Wulf Vengis]

Primaris are a direct result of the chapterhouse case.

It may not seem that way but if you were gw and you were told that you can't copyright/trademark your 28mm heroic scale plastic armored soldiers because their name "space marines" and their "generic" yet identifiable armor curves are too common in the world marketplace, allowing for third parties to create after market parts and alternate designs you would go to the drawing board and change that design.

That is exactly what gw did. They told their sculpt teams to make space marines unique. So thatonly they (gw) could make parts and models for them. The sculpt teams came up with a "new" design based entirely off of the old. One that is larger than the 28mm heroic scale of old. One that looks MORE unique than the space marines of yesterday. Something that is absolutely 100% copyright/trademark friendly.

The "truescale" primaris fits this aesthetic perfectly.

Now third party companies can make all 28mm heroic scale space knight/soldier/marine parts they want.

I have not built any primaris marines but i assume they are more like the monopose or snapfit marines than the multipart kit that was so easily modifiable.

 

EDIT: I also believe that a lot of the name changes were a direct result of that lawsuit as well.

Terms like "imperial guard" and "space marine" were around long before gw used them, and that makes them hard to trademark or copyright.

Edited May 23, 2019 by Wulf Vengis

[Panzer]

Primaris are a direct result of the chapterhouse case.

It may not seem that way but if you were gw and you were told that you can't copyright/trademark your 28mm heroic scale plastic armored soldiers because their name "space marines" and their "generic" yet identifiable armor curves are too common in the world marketplace, allowing for third parties to create after market parts and alternate designs you would go to the drawing board and change that design.

That is exactly what gw did. They told their sculpt teams to make space marines unique. So thatonly they (gw) could make parts and models for them. The sculpt teams came up with a "new" design based entirely off of the old. One that is larger than the 28mm heroic scale of old. One that looks MORE unique than the space marines of yesterday. Something that is absolutely 100% copyright/trademark friendly.

The "truescale" primaris fits this aesthetic perfectly.

Now third party companies can make all 28mm heroic scale space knight/soldier/marine parts they want.

 

But ... they aren't? Primaris are still Space Marines. Just with a slightly different design. They are even still called Space Marines. They also use armour compatible with many many of the old bitz and thus also compatible with whatever any 3rd party company produced for the older Space Marines. Primaris do literally nothing to protect against 3rd party companies that older Space Marines don't do as well (which is nothing). Hell there already are 3rd party companies producing bitz for Primaris right now.

Also Primaris are still 28mm heroic scale. The scale didn't change. They are just bigger and better proportioned models in a game using that scale because they are literally taller humanoids in the fluff. Primaris don't look more unique than older Space Marines or anything, just new.

 

 

Now third party companies can make all 28mm heroic scale space knight/soldier/marine parts they want.

I have not built any primaris marines but i assume they are more like the monopose or snapfit marines than the multipart kit that was so easily modifiable.

 

No offense, but it shows.

[Wulf Vengis]

Understandable and i accept your statement.

 

I am seemingly wrong and i stand corrected.

 

I take no offence at being shown the error of my ways or being corrected etc.

 

I guess i should have specified that the primaris and name changes all seemed in my opinion to be related to the chapter house suit.

 

EDIT: None taken. Like i said I've not built any primaris. I do like the models, well done of them anyways. But i have not had the opportunity to build any yet.

Edited May 23, 2019 by Wulf Vengis

[Brother Lunkhead]

With the exception of faction name changes to more clearly identify them with GW, I think most of the GW shifts are a direct result of  upper management changes and not the Chapterhouse litigation. Primaris, AoS, friendly customer relations, new quality licensed products by secondary vendors, etc. are all a result of management decisions by people who actually know what they are doing.

 

I think if Chapterhouse had lost hands down and was sued into oblivion they would have richly deserved it. Up until that point and even after GW has been extremely generous and tolerant of small companies creating and selling bitz and models that were clearly geared to the GW fans so long as they did not actually use GW names and pix. Chapterhouse clearly violated this unwritten agreement routinely and got smacked for it. GW is still extremely generous with it's "gentlemen's agreement" with small companies if not more so. To date there are even more companies producing high quality GW compatible products and they generally don't say boo about it. 

 

Litigation has always been a weapon of intimidation and finance draining used by large corporate entities against smaller ones (whether or not  their claims were legitimate) and thus far GW has generally not engaged in this kind of market warfare. Keep in mind CBS v Axanar Prod. or Disney v …….anyone and everyone.

 

Note: My views on Chapterhouse are strong but ultimately just my views..... so no dog fight over this please (you won't change my mind anyway)

[Marshal Rohr]

They forbid the usage of third party parts at their stores. Entirely understandable, I’m not whining about it, but this effects IG and Imperial Militia players pretty harshly.

 

I found it very unusual when they showcased the Pilgrym display by the iron sleet guys given how brazenly the Inq28 movers and shakers use third party pieces and recast their own parts.

Edited May 23, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[Brother Lunkhead]

They forbid the usage of third party parts at their stores. Entirely understandable, I’m not whining about it, but this effects IG and Imperial Militia players pretty harshly.

 

I found it very unusual when they showcased the Pilgrym display by the iron sleet guys given how brazenly the Inq28 movers and shakers use third party pieces and recast their own parts.

 

I didn't notice any whineage on your part Personally, I rarely go to the GW store in Colorado (being 60 miles away might have something to do with it). Is GW the only store in town for you?..... no independent game stores? My FLGS's (3 great independent stores) are all GW partners, plus they have multitudinous third party bits and models. Plus, those that they don't carry they can order...… great customer service

[Marshal Rohr]

Oh no, I lived in COS for a bit and I’m now in Augusta so I know what you mean. The stores in COS are pretty great, but Augusta only has a single one so I don’t play much. The closest stores are in Columbia or Atlanta. I’m talking in general, GW may not go after Kromlech and Anvil because it’s not worth the time, but they don’t allow you to use those parts to play in their stores or Warhammer world. I don’t think their enthusiastic about third party parts, especially because the resources devoted to competing with them wouldn’t produce returns.

 

Like if I built a full fledged IG army from reptilian minis but use GW chimeras and Leman Russ, I still couldn’t play at Warhammer World or the Warhammer Citadel.

Edited May 23, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[Leonaides]

You could if you converted lizardmen into guard proxies and gave them the appropriate weaponry. I dont think i've ever seen any problems with self-sculpted models and i've seen feral ork armies with fantasy boar riders converted into deffcoptas and space wolves with all sorts of recast decals/extra gubbins made from scratch and bits robbed from all over the shop used at whhq tournaments. It probably helps when you deploy models the TO's have never seen cos they were oop before they were born but dont take the pee, they are usually cool with little bits here and there for character sake.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Oh no, I lived in COS for a bit and I’m now in Augusta so I know what you mean. The stores in COS are pretty great, but Augusta only has a single one so I don’t play much. The closest stores are in Columbia or Atlanta. I’m talking in general, GW may not go after Kromlech and Anvil because it’s not worth the time, but they don’t allow you to use those parts to play in their stores or Warhammer world. I don’t think their enthusiastic about third party parts, especially because the resources devoted to competing with them wouldn’t produce returns.

 

Like if I built a full fledged IG army from reptilian minis but use GW chimeras and Leman Russ, I still couldn’t play at Warhammer World or the Warhammer Citadel.

 

I totally get your point Brother. Once upon a time GW was more tolerant of players using non-company bits in models (a certain rough percentage was allowed in models for official play). I think it's gotten to the point where you can't even use third party bases I haven't been to the GW store in a while so I'm not sure what the degree of intolerance is there at this point. Does the 100% rule apply to casual games as well as officially sanctioned games?

 

Ah well, their company, their rules I personally express my displeasure by not participating in official GW tournaments (I have a long list of other grievances mostly involving over aggressive play and general lack of good sportsmanship, but I won't go into that here). But, non-participation is easy for me as I have several awesome LFGS's to play at in my AO. I'm sorry many others such as yourself are not so blessed. Have you tried to hook up with other like-minded players in your area and perhaps form a club or even hook up with existing table top clubs in your area? Some years ago I and a group of like minded folk did just that with board games during the dark era when board gaming was not the thing at game stores here.

 

My advice is to maintain your creative integrity in building and playing your armies and don't give into the mundane status quo. Try to find a side door into playing. Embrace the resistance and don't give up

 

Hmmm..... we may be getting slightly off topic here

Edited May 26, 2019 by Brother Lunkhead

[N1SB]

Hi guys, very interesting dialogue, I've been reading your posts throughout and agreed with basically everything.  I was also re-reading something someone who was technically a GW insider had said in 2014.  Now, you'll notice he didn't explicitly say that this is about Chapterhouse settlement, but he implied it pretty strongly:

 

 

In the technological world we occupy there is constant debate over who 'innovates' and who merely copies. We have, this last year, spent an indecent amount of your money trying to stop someone stealing our ideas and images. It is a very difficult thing to do when it is done through a legal system designed to prevent people stealing hogs from one another. Our experience has probably been typical of most – far too much money spent on far too little gain. The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit, lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?

 

Last year I published the secret that I believe is at the heart of what makes this business great. Steve Jobs once did the same over at heavily litigating Apple. He said they ignored everything that did not lead to 'insanely great products' and that was what made them great. None of the people Apple are suing are trying to do that, so why sue?

 

This was written by Tom Kirby, Chairman and Acting CEO of GW at the time, in the Chairman's Preamble in his annual report to investors.  Most chairmen use these to set a vision for the future, but Tom Kirby tends to use them as straight-from-the-gut rants.  That's actually useful to us as rants tend to reveal true feelings.

 

The key phrase imho is "the argument is that we have to do this" (legal action thing) because I was in the same situation.  When I was an itty bitty N1SB working at a Silicon Valley tech start-up, we were sent a Sternly Worded Letter from a "professionally concerned" lawyer representing a comic book company (it's not Marvel or DC, but it's one you probably know) that we were potentially infringing on their stuff.  We were operating a browser-based fantasy game that was so far removed from their medium and their genre (their comic books had nothing to do with fantasy) that we didn't even know how to dispute their claim.  It wasn't like being accused of being a witch, it was like being accused of being a duck, how do you even respond to that?

 

GW was the "attacker" in their case.  We were the "defender" in ours.  However, we both shared the most important thing in common:

 

Our lawyers told us "we have to do this"...and the reason, as you probably guessed, was that they get PAID to "do this".  Both sides.

 

I'm not sure what GW's legal department structure is, but it's probably an internal guy who has to manage this (maybe the CEO himself as GW's not that big) who relies on a law firm on "retainership", that charges an annual fee for basic coverage, then extra fees if there's actually some legal stuff what needs doing.  There's incentive.

 

The hyperbolic metaphors that Tom Kirby used really suggested at least he had no interest in pressing the case.  But his lawyers did.  And because his lawyers did, his investors also did.  It's like doctor's orders, you got to pay him a lot for medicine you didn't want, then afterwards your family & friends tell you to swallow that bitter pill.

 

(Edit - I was wrong to make blanket statements about lawyers in such a derogatory way.  I'm genuinely sorry.  I'm leaving what I wrote above sheerly because I don't want it swept under the rug, I'm owning up to it.  More below.) 

 

(I'm not a legal expert, but in my dealings with a very gracious and savvy lawyer who taught me about the games they play, there is some justification in GW's lawyers pressing the matter.  The idea is, in the future, if GW had to defend its own claim on its IP like "Space Marine" against others, it had to show it had always been seriously about their trademarks/copyrights/legal claims.  And the best defense is a good offense...sue someone else 1st to show you're protecting that IP.)

 

I'm not exactly sure about my answer on the "what if " scenario, but I wanted to share some context straight from GW's top brass's mouth...including that weird reference to Apple's strategy, which matches a lot of what you guys have been talking about.  I'll share my own thoughts later.

Edited May 28, 2019 by N1SB

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

No sympathy for CH here they totally got what they deserved. To even suggest they won is absurd.

[Marshal Rohr]

Who suggested they won? Edited May 27, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yep, IP works that if GW ignored Chapterhouse, and another designer started doing the same thing, GW wouldn't be able to tell them to stop, as they could point to Chapterhouse, and argue that it's set a precedent.

[Toxichobbit]

You could if you converted lizardmen into guard proxies and gave them the appropriate weaponry. I dont think i've ever seen any problems with self-sculpted models and i've seen feral ork armies with fantasy boar riders converted into deffcoptas and space wolves with all sorts of recast decals/extra gubbins made from scratch and bits robbed from all over the shop used at whhq tournaments. It probably helps when you deploy models the TO's have never seen cos they were oop before they were born but dont take the pee, they are usually cool with little bits here and there for character sake.

 

I'm pretty sure Marshal Rohr's mention of reptilian minis is referring to a company called Reptilian Overloards who do not-Guard models. Valhallans if I remember correctly. So I doubt it's anything to do with making lizard-Guard.

[Inquisitor lorr]

Our lawyers told us "we have to do this"...and the reason, as you probably guessed, was that they get PAID to "do this". Both sides.

 

I'm not sure what GW's legal department structure is, but it's probably an internal guy who has to manage this (maybe the CEO himself as GW's not that big) who relies on a law firm on "retainership", that charges an annual fee for basic coverage, then extra fees if there's actually some legal stuff what needs doing. There's incentive.

 

The hyperbolic metaphors that Tom Kirby used really suggested at least he had no interest in pressing the case. But his lawyers did. And because his lawyers did, his investors also did. It's like doctor's orders, you got to pay him a lot for medicine you didn't want, then afterwards your family & friends tell you to swallow that bitter pill.

 

(I'm not a legal expert, but in my dealings with a very gracious and savvy lawyer who taught me about the games they play, there is some justification in GW's lawyers pressing the matter. The idea is, in the future, if GW had to defend its own claim on its IP like "Space Marine" against others, it had to show it had always been seriously about their trademarks/copyrights/legal claims. And the best defense is a good offense...sue someone else 1st to show you're protecting that IP.)

 

I'm not exactly sure about my answer on the "what if " scenario, but I wanted to share some context straight from GW's top brass's mouth...including that weird reference to Apple's strategy, which matches a lot of what you guys have been talking about. I'll share my own thoughts later.

I always enjoy reading your insights NS1B, but I’m not sure that’s an entirely fair portrayal of modern lawyers, particularly in the UK and which have a commercial relationship with their client which goes beyond one claim. Rather, it is more a reflection of the steps that are required to be taken to property protect valuable IP and, unfortunately, the huge costs of litigation which still, and probably will always, remain.

 

Realistically, if GW did not pursue this matter there was a real, wider and significant risk to the ongoing protection of their wider IP.

 

On topic, I imagine the name changes were largely a result of the litigation, but suspect any wider changes to models and narrative etc were simply a result of internal changes and a reaction at the time to poor feedback/reputation with customers.

[N1SB]

Yeah, I hear you.  I'm honestly sorry about talking about lawyers in that way.  I'm not even apologising because it's the polite thing to do, I'm actually sorry that my brain short-circuited when I wrote that, it's embarrassing.

 

To bring this back on topic, I 1st agree that GW absolutely has the right to defend its IP, even as they found to their great cost that litigation is "far too much money on far too little gain."  That said, right here on B&C's News, Rumours, and Board Annoucements page, there are 4 counters to that, in neat bullet points:

 

- Vanguard Miniatures

- Artel W

- Anvil Industries

- Kromlech

 

I'm not being snarky, I'm actually in a reflective mood after my apology about lawyers, so I'm not being like "so how do you like them apples?"  I'm not even trying to point fingers at these companies, I'm actually a huge fan of Anvil Industries personally.  Instead, I'm actually asking, "Did something change?"  Did GW run out of money?  No, it's in a far better financial situation now than back in 2014, you guys know I've been following that with my breakdowns of their annual reports.  Did it stop caring about its IP?  Certainly not, because last year they talked about trying to make a movie deal (which I said at the time was more likely to be a Netflix/Amazon Prime/YouTube Red series), so they care MORE than ever.

 

On that note, a broader issue, let's not fixate on just miniatures, let's talk about other content (since I mentioned YouTube in passing).  You probably heard that big companies are putting copyright strikes on video content creators, yet these Unofficial Fan Films like The Lord Inquisitor, Death of Hope, etc., are still openly operating, while Helsreach short film series was finally completed, using actual voice work from GW's audiobook.  People are getting de-monetised for 5-sec music clips, Helsreach uses I think more than an hour's worth of actual recording.  INB4 GW fearing the PR backlash, if there was a time to do it, it's a few months before when there was a YouTube had a major crackdown, so that it would've been less noticeable.

 

Because something did change and here's the point: I think GW found instead of spending money on litigation, it's better/easier/more effective to pour it towards innovation.  Working in tech, I share this belief that the best way to beat imitators is to advance so fast that whatever they're trying to copy, you've already moved onto the next big thing.  A very effective way to do this is actually to hire out those guys, just like how GW hired the creator of the Helsreach series, Richard Boylan.

 

I think that's what Brother Grailkeeper was putting forth to us and this was my long-winded way of say, ya i totes agree wit you guys.

 

EDIT - btw, as a result of this dialogue, I'm more convinced than ever that GW will put out Primaris upgrade sprues for all the different Codex Chapters with new rules in some sort of format (might be a C:SM 2.0 like CSM or Codex Astartes or something), precisely so they can pre-empt 3rd parties, within the coming FY (which starts in about 3 days actually).

 

+++++

 

The funny thing is, I agree with the premise of the thread, but at the same time you're asking what if GW won, yet nobody's saying Chapterhouse won either.  Who won?  No one won from that lawsuit.  This is a weird game where there's no winners, only different degrees of losing.  It's especially odd because Tom Kirby was a guy who can gloat about anything, like he would say something along the lines of "GW didn't grow this year...but it didn't shrink either, therefore VICTORY."  He could have bragged about how he bled Chapterhouse into non-existence, he forced them to settle, least of all to his investors.  My take is, it was very telling how he didn't.

Edited May 28, 2019 by N1SB

[MegaVolt87]

There are good lawyers and scumbag ones, you are both right and have nothing to be apologizing for. 

 

"Yep, IP works that if GW ignored Chapterhouse, and another designer started doing the same thing, GW wouldn't be able to tell them to stop, as they could point to Chapterhouse, and argue that it's set a precedent."

- Lord_Caerolion

 

It is just that simple, not defending against a flagrant infringement of IP leads to you losing it sooner or later. Technically most old disney stuff should have been public domain years ago. If you are not defending your bread and butter IP's tooth and nail as a company- the management is not doing its job and should be sacked IMO. Lets be real, a lot of IP imitations/ infringements are mostly crap anyway which de-values the IP and damages its reputation as well into the bargain. 

[SickSix]

Honestly I think GW would have changed a lot of names and such either way. That case was a huge wake-up call for them. They basically got slapped in the face with how ridiculous they were with their claims.

 

But a lot of stuff GW changed was directly a result of the Chapterhouse and Spots the Space Marine cases.

 

I also think the new CEO saw how GW was getting absolutely ripped in the PR department over those cases. I do think the kindler friendlier GW is also a result of the disasters their over aggressive IP claims created.

[Stoic Raptor]

Sometimes, the 800-pound gorillas get too litigious and they get a rude awakening.

I recall a story where George Lucas, fresh from a victory against FASA over the name "Battledroids", went after GDW and Marc Miller, author of Traveller, for some ridiculous IP "infringement".

Miller pointed out that Traveller was released a year before Star Wars and threatened to counter-sue Lucas for the same.  You bet Georgie backed off pretty quick.

 

I can't help but think if Heinlein had still been alive, the scent of GW trying to trademark "Space Marine" would have caught his attention - and as big as GW might think they are, they're not as big as good ol' Bob.