Where do they put them all?

[mertbl]

Shower thoughts today. Fortress monasteries were built for 1000 normal sized marines. Now that chapters can go beyond that mark and the new primaris marines are huge. Where do they go? Are all the ships being rebuilt to get these guys to warzones?

[Kallas]

Shower thoughts today. Fortress monasteries were built for 1000 normal sized marines. Now that chapters can go beyond that mark and the new primaris marines are huge. Where do they go? Are all the ships being rebuilt to get these guys to warzones?

 

Well, Primaris haven't learned how to adapt to new situations, which is why they can't get into a Land Raider, and only a few of them can fit in a Thunderhawk (despite it carrying Dreadnoughts). Presumably they just mill about in the hallways, confused. 

[Brother Tyler]

Your question appears to be based on two assumptions:

• Adeptus Astartes fortress-monasteries are barely big enough to fit the previous maximum number of battle-brothers.
• Chapters can now exceed the previous maximum by an amount of battle-brothers (Primaris or otherwise) such that they can't fit within a fortress-monastery.

What makes you think that a Chapter's fortress-monastery isn't large enough to fit (considerably) more battle-brothers?

 

Consider that the Ultramarines Legion was headquartered upon Ultramar and the majority of the surviving Legion left when the Chapters were created during the Second Founding. The same can be said for the other Chapters named for the Legions, with the possible exception of the Dark Angels since the Rock is all that remains of Caliban. Given that, is it possible that the other Second Founding and later Chapters may have erected their fortress monasteries to be of such a size that they can accommodate more than the Codex Astartes would allow, especially the other Second Founding Chapters for whom the Legion-sized headquarters would have been fresh in their memories?

[Ishagu]

I get the impression that Fortress monasteries are mostly empty?

Granted that comes from reading about the BA and Ultras one in particular.

Can't imagine the Rock or the Fang are lacking in space lol

[Marshal Rohr]

250,000 people can fit a concert in a field. A miles wide fortress built into a mountain with layer upon layer of curtain walls and redoubts would be no problem. 

[Brother Tyler]

To be fair, since those [ultramarines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves fortress monasteries] are former Legion headquarters, it's understandable that they might be much larger than a Codex Astartes-based Chapter would need. If there are exceptionally large fortress monasteries, these would be the ones. In this, they are the most likely exceptions rather than the rule.

 

How large are the fortress monasteries of later founding Chapters? Those would probably be "the rule" for the average size of a fortress monastery (assuming there is some sort of standardization).

[mertbl]

Yeah that's kind of where I'm at with it. Sure the ultramarines have space to spare. What about the second founding chapters.

 

My thought with it being just big enough for 1000 marines is that the imperium is very utilitarian, need to hold 1k, we will give you space for 1k.

 

 

To be fair, since those [ultramarines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves fortress monasteries] are former Legion headquarters, it's understandable that they might be much larger than a Codex Astartes-based Chapter would need. If there are exceptionally large fortress monasteries, these would be the ones. In this, they are the most likely exceptions rather than the rule.

 

How large are the fortress monasteries of later founding Chapters? Those would probably be "the rule" for the average size of a fortress monastery (assuming there is some sort of standardization).

[chaplain belisarius]

I imagine fortress monasteries are HUGE! That's how my head Canon works. Tons of space. Even when at capacity they seem kind of empty.

[Oxydo]

It's an unlikely event that all of the Chapter's marines are home at the same time. I don't think there has been any info on the ratio of marines to serfs and the like but I suspect it runs in the 1:100-1000 at least. Add to that how little space a 1000 marines would need and that Fortress Monasteries are probably ridicously overengineered in both the defensive and ornamental aspect and you're probably be able to support way more than a 1000 marines. The Imperium does not skimp money on ornaments, and it has a pretty strong policy of throwing resources into defensive structures.

And if :cuss really hits the fan, you're gonna call on your allied Chapters and you're gonna need to put them and the X amount of off screen base humans who probably make up the bulk of the defensive forces somewhere.

 

Shipe wise, a strike cruiser is at least one kilometer long (maybe even 2-5 times that, depending on the source) and can transport a full company with the corresponding support. It's not inconcievable that they could retrofit that into twice that number. Ships are huge in 40k.

[MARK0SIAN]

Also it’s not like all the marines are generally at the Fortress monastery at the same time. They could always hot-bunk if necessary :)

 

On a more serious note, the monasteries must have a lot of extra space for all the support staff, supplies, armouries, training rooms etc. They could always refit those.

 

It also can’t be that difficult to just build more space. Tunnel further into the mountain, add more buildings/walls etc.

[Stoic Raptor]

My thought with it being just big enough for 1000 marines is that the imperium is very utilitarian, need to hold 1k, we will give you space for 1k.

 

 

Respectfully, your headcanon disagrees with the vast library of 40K fiction.  Armories, briefing rooms, officer ready rooms, etc are cathedrals for all intents and purposes.

There's really not much evidence of utilitarianism in a Gothic-Punk universe.  Look at the terrain they sell.  

 

Quite to the contrary, the design ethos of the Imperium is "bigger is better".  A battle barge for a single Astartes Company is like a Terran naval battleship or dreadnought.  A mobile fortress-monastery is far larger still.  Even for later Foundings - the Arx Tyrannus of the Crimson Fists was once a ship - and prior to its demise was an enormous mountain holdfast.  There was more than enough space for the entire Chapter and their retainers.

 

I'm quite sure you could double or triple the size of a Chapter and there would be room to spare in their base.

[chaplain belisarius]

In my head the imperium favours size over efficiency. Plus ornamentation. It's not practical but that's how it is. Just had a thought whilst typing. Apparently the white house was built to awe/intimidate visitors. I reckon there's a element of this to imperial aesthetics. Especially for marine chapters!

[Volt]

http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/35700000/Space-Marines-warhammer-40k-35766651-953-1229.jpg

 

"Brother-Captain, I fear to inform you that because you are merely a third of a meter taller than the rest of us as one of the new Primaris Genestock (which I might note is shorter than Brother Marius; a towering giant of three meters until he lost his legs to a Carnifex) that you cannot enter the Fortress Monastery. Yes, I am well aware that our towering cathedral halls have lofted gothic ceilings over three-hundred meters in the air and each Brother is afforded a personal space of a hundred square meters- but you must understand our humble lodgings. You are simply too large Brother-Captain and shan't fit in our abode. Similar to how you are curious unable to fit inside of one of our Rhino transports, Stormravens, Land Raiders, or Thunderhawks (even though our aforementioned Brother Marius was able to fit in all of these despite his incredible stature), we just do not have the ability to accommodate your bulk. Therefore our Master of the Forge has crafted you the mightiest sleeping sack to ever be wrought by the hands of a human, and you shall be resting on the patio of the Monastery with the rest of the Primaris arrivals. Please forgive us, we had no warning or means to anticipate these problems. Be careful tonight as well Brother-Captain, I heard temperatures drop as low as -60 Celsius at night."

[Red_Shift]

In the latest deathwatch book, Karras mentions that the Death Spectres have never all been in the fortress monastery at the same time. With the vagaries of warp travel I would imagine it would be very rare for the monastery to be at full capacity so it's unlikely to be an issue. Even if for some reason they all came home some would remain stationed in orbit and at outlying bases so they don't get caught with their trousers down, Invadors style, and almost wiped out.

[MajorNese]

With the typically supersized construction of imperial architecture, there will be enough space for several more companies. A fortress monastery, besides having space for every conceivable tradition or purpose, are built as defensive positions too. There is always more space than absolutely necessary.

 

In one Night Lords novel, the NL sneaked into a fortress monastery and started killing serfs, in large halls dedicated to inscribing purity seals, which took quite a while until the local marines noticed. Converting one such hall to quarters for additional marines would not be a problem.

 

Marines on the other hand don't need much space if necessary. During the escape from Isstvaan, the RG fit between 3000 and 4000 marines on a single battle barge. They lined up in storage areas, service ducts, pretty much any space was good enough. They can be pragmatic if they need to, and a marine's quarters aren't exactly described as luxurious.

 

 

Similar to how you are curious unable to fit inside of one of our Rhino transports, Stormravens, Land Raiders, or Thunderhawks [...], we just do not have the ability to accommodate your bulk.

Actually, they do fit in a Thunderhawk. Due to the low ceiling, they have to sit diagonally, blocking the adjacent seat and thereby cutting the transport capacity in half. The sight of this is so disturbing that regular marines cannot be present at the same time. At least that's the most plausible explanation of the rules...

[RandomMarine]

In my mind most fortress monasteries are as big as a small hive ,even fleet based chapters will have at least 1 capital ship possible dating back to the heresy and these used to house upto 4000 marines plus ancillary crew. There are notable exceptions like the Ironhands and the imperial fist

[Dracos]

Plight of the Primaris 

 

Also it’s not like all the marines are generally at the Fortress monastery at the same time. They could always hot-bunk if necessary
 

 

Sorry Primaris, we can't have you hot-bunking with Brother Alexander. He's cranky about his stuff at night ... uh, all the brothers are. Lets see if there's room in the motorpool. 

[Trevak Dal]

I think a lot of their numbers along with stuff like food for Marines is based off the old head cannon. The calories needed to run bodies that big must be astronomical.

[Panzer]

Except that Marines can go for a very long time without food or sleep before it affects them.

[Exilyth]

Something we should not forget is that we are talking about fortress-monasteries, places which aren't exactly known for a focus on living comfort.

 

There is fluff which describes space marines living in cells (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monastic_cell): Rooms just large enough to fit a bed/bunk, a desk (& chair), an alcove to store the power armour and just enough space to allow the marine to sit down on the floor for contemplation/meditation (if the chair is pushed under the desk). Being situated inside the fortress-monastery, theese cells do not need walls as thick as the outside.

 

Assuming 10 rooms on a side corridor, each side corridor could house a squad (with the sergeant probably getting a slightly larger room to put a map table). Assuming there are 10 such corridors on one level, we're already at 100 marines. Stacking 10 such levels, we arrive at 1000 marines with a structure that would be similar in size to about 4-5 hab blocks, even if we're being generous and add two further rooms to each side corridor: a shower and a toilet.

 

Captains and the chapter master will probably receive larger rooms to honor their status and to provide them the space they need for tactical/strategic planning, so we can add another 1-2 hab blocks. Terminators will probably also need more space.

 

At a rate of 100 serfs per marine and recognizing that the mundane servants of the chapter can do with communal sleeping halls and sleeping in shifts, we get another structure of ~twice the size. This does not include space for basic needs, like a cantina & sanitary installations ofc.

 

The rest of the fortress-monastery is mostly communal spaces and places with specific functions (e.g. scriptorium, librarium, armory, vehicle bays, kitchen, mess hall, various storage areas, target/shooting range, training facilities, interrogation and holding cells, e.t.c.). Since marines spend a large portion of their time in such places, theese areas will be more spacious and ornamented. The number, size and types of rooms will probably vary by chapter, e.g. black templars won't have a scriptorium.

 

Overall, we should be able to fit 1k marines (+serfs, vehicles & equipment) into a structure that is smaller than a hive city (or slightly larger than a small hive, depending on chapter).

 

To accomodate primaris marines, additional wings with slightly larger cells could be constructed, or some spaces (e.g. storage areas not in use) repurposed. Ofc, different chapters will arrive at different solutions. E.g. space marines could be housed in communal bunks instead, or old marines and primaris housed together to learn from each other (and ofc. to keep an eye for deviations).

 

Of course the fortress-monasteries of pre-heresy legion chapters will be larger. Then again, large parts of them may have been destroyed during the heresy and not rebuilt.

[Canadian_F_H]

*laughs in eternal crusade*

 

Seriously. With hundreds, possibly thousands of chapter keeps across the galaxy, mosy largely unmanned most of the time, plus several roving fleets caoable of services several smaller chapters at once, i certanly dont see this as an issue for the Black Templars Legion.

 

It is nice to see guilliman finally come around to the first marshall's way of thinking regarding chapter sizes.

[Trevak Dal]

I wonder why they don't bunk together in a barracks? Was GW just leaning into super battle monks?

[Canadian_F_H]

They have *always* been genetically engineered, cybernetically augmented, psycho-indoctrinated, monastic, child soldiers.

 

*well... Since 3rd edition for sure. Probably since 2nd but that era was JUST before my time.

[Oxydo]

I wonder why they don't bunk together in a barracks? Was GW just leaning into super battle monks?

 

Because they are the Emperor's Angels and barracks are for the common soldier.

 

The actual reason is probably more due to their cell being their actual home for fair amount of decades, while IG and the like are merely temporarily, in theory, assigned quarters. And I'm sure the officers get their own rooms in most cases too. So it's a matter of 'rank' too, and generally SMs are considering way above the baseline human soldier in that aspect.

[The Doctor Of War]

They have *always* been genetically engineered, cybernetically augmented, psycho-indoctrinated, monastic, child soldiers.

 

*well... Since 3rd edition for sure. Probably since 2nd but that era was JUST before my time.

 

Not sure on the child soldier front, but the monastic element has been there since Rogue Trader, although not necessarily for all Chapters. Oddly enough the most monastic Chapter in the early days was the Space Wolves. Of course this was also during the time when Leman Russ was an Imperial Commander daft enough not to wear protection on a planet with an acidic atmosphere.