Bubble Tactica?

[Morticon]

Hey all. 

 

So, our (arguably) strongest codex-specific combinations rely heavily on the use of bubbles or auras. 

 

However, the biggest issue is that we are granted two great strats that aid movement fantastically and make for some formidable combos but then leave us without the aforementioned auras.  

Upon Wings of Fire and Forlorn Fury (and possibly even Descent of Angels) are two (/three)  strats that (I feel) make the BA what they are and make the Blood Angels "Blood Angels". 

But as said, with the fact that 1st turn deep strikes are no longer available, Forlorn and Wings see key units that need buffs left out in the open away from the Characters. 

So, how do YOU guys deal with this? 

Most of the following buffs will play similarly in how we get units to use them. Some will be more difficult than others on account of the source of the buff and the units limitations on movement.   Additionally, most of the time we want to stack these which adds to the complications of how to move the units or get them into place. 

 

How do you make the most of the following buffs and auras:

 

1:  5+ FNP Banner

2: Master/Captain/Chaplain reroll hits

3: Sang Priest (+1 Strength)

4: Sanguinor (+1 Attack)

5: Lemartes reroll charge. 

6: Ancient/Lieutenant (Malakhim) re-roll wound 

7: Corbulo's "exploding" 6s. 

 

 

How have you gained success with these? Share your experiences and tips and tricks. 

[Panzer]

Well I play mostly a Primaris army so many of the options simply don't exist for me.

1. My Ancient of course always walks together with my Intercessors, turning them into a very durable core.
2. I don't use Chaplains but my Gravis Captain usually walks together with my Intercessors and the Ancient. When I'm using a regular Captain with smash loadout he is either waiting in reserves for his solo action fun or sneakily hides within my Intercessor blob for his time to shine with Upon Wings of Fire.
3. I haven't gotten around building a Sanguinary Priest yet but he'd just be part of my Intercessor+Ancient+Gravis blob I guess.
4. No Sanguinor for me because I dislike the model and haven't come up with a satisfying conversion yet.
5. No Lemartes for me because I'm playing with a successor chapter and as Primaris play I don't have any Deathcompany aside of maybe my Chapter Master Captain Smash.
6. I'm actually really struggling to get a Lieutenant in my list. Usually I run out of points before he's in because I'd rather take a Librarian instead (these days two in bigger games due the Vanguard Librarian having his own useful discipline).
7. Again no Corbulo for me because I'm playing with a successor chapter and he's no Primaris.

 

Usually my Jump Pack units get focussed down the turn they arrive (my opponents really don't like having my Inceptors hanging around for very long lol), or I use my last CP for something else so I can't re-position my Suppressors late game, or I use every last of my CP for my Captain Smash in one go. So using Upon Wings of Fire or Descent of Angels is kinda a non-issue for me for the most part. 

[The Unseen]

A decent trick I've been using to give a unit of DC rerolls that I've furied up the table is running a libby dread with wings up with them, and then using wisdom of the ancients during the fight phase.

It's not quite as good as a chaplain, but hitting on 3s rerolling 1s still isn't bad.

 

And usually in same lists I run lemartes to drop in with a 2nd unit of DC to use Descent of Angels on, for the reroll charge, and I chain a model just far back enough to keep then within his aura, if lemartes fails his own charge, which is of course likely.

Losing 4 chainsword swings to give rerolls to 16 chainsword and 9 hammer swings is well worth it.

You charge with the DC first for overwatch protection, leave the guy behind just far enough to stay in the aura bubble, then charge with Lemartes.

If he fails, you're fine.

If he does actually succeed though, you can then use your pile in move normally to get that guy hanging back within range to swing if you placed it right, with 32 mm base, 6" aura, and 3" pile in, and getting to within 1" of a friendly within 1", shouldn't be difficult.

 

And I've had success with the relic banner surrounded by Dev squads as a fire base.

Company Ancient can be fun there. Stick them in cover with a few ablative bolter wounds, and those devs can be very hard to kill with the effective 2+/5+++, and on a 4+ they get to shoot again before they die.

 

Corbulo, and Sanguinary Priests in general I feel are sorta traps, against a lot of targets, +1 Str does nothing for us, (only time it has value at base str 4 is against T4, T5 and T8+ for example) because of how wounding works in 8th, and for *most* units, it's more effecient to just bring more dudes than to try and have a priest heal them or roll to revive 1 dude on a 4+. And corbulos ability is actually really lacklustre most of the time.

Can't trigger using unwieldy weapons at all, and even with like 8 DC with chainswords, your only getting an average of like 5 extra attacks.

If it triggered off natural 6s, so fists/hammers could benefit, it might be ok.

 

Lieutenants are almost as expensive as captains, with much less outright combat ability, and a usually worse aura, so I pass.

 

And haven't tried the Sanguinor, just because I prefer a captain, because he's cheaper and also hits harder, or librarian because of how stupid fast they can be.

Though I could see the Sanguinor being really good if you made him your warlord and had him tag along a big unit of Sanguinary Guard, giving them 50% more attacks and full rerolls at the same time from just 1 character is solid.

[Morticon]

STRAT + STRAT COMBO:

 

The most obvious 1st turn combo is the Forlorn + Wings combo for a character and a squad.  It's expensive, and possibly not the best use. 

Possible Combos: 

A:  Captain + Any Jump Pack Squad.

 

B:  Any Jump Character + Death Company. 

 

 - Possibly good for a Lemmy + DC combo, or a Slam-Cap/Lemmy led charge (following up with a 3d6 charge from the Wings dropped unit). 

STRAT + BIKER COMBO: 

 

With a 14" standard move and a boost/advance of an additional 6", this 20" placement allows key characters to be where they need them.  Most of us would want our BA leaders with packs, but given the need for their bubbles, we may see better use with Bikers. 

Possible Combos:

 

A:  Biker Cap + any Jump Pack Squad

 

B:  Biker Priest + any Jump Pack Squad

 

C: Biker Chaplain + any Jump Pack squad

 

 

 

[Karhedron]

Corbulo, and Sanguinary Priests in general I feel are sorta traps, against a lot of targets, +1 Str does nothing for us, (only time it has value at base str 4 is against T4, T5 and T8+ for example) because of how wounding works in 8th, and for *most* units, it's more effecient to just bring more dudes than to try and have a priest heal them or roll to revive 1 dude on a 4+. And corbulos ability is actually really lacklustre most of the time.

Can't trigger using unwieldy weapons at all, and even with like 8 DC with chainswords, your only getting an average of like 5 extra attacks.

If it triggered off natural 6s, so fists/hammers could benefit, it might be ok.

Priests become much better if you are running multi-wound units like SG or Primaris as the healing is automatic (unlike the resurrection). Also you can heal other nearby characters which is often the most points-efficient use of these guys. I certainly wouldn't use them to accompany Death Company or Vanvets but with SG, the +1S can be really good. Your basic swords now wound MEQs on a 2+ and even wound Knights on a 4+. Fists/Hammers now wound everything on a 2+.

 

I haven't tried Corbulo but a Sanguinary Priest works really well if you are running something like Sanguinary Guard as he boosts both their offense and their defense. In my last game, I hurled a blob of 10 SG supported by the Sanguinor, Jump Libby, Sanguinary Ancient and Priest (Index version so he could take a jump pack) into the heart of a Death Guard army. They tore through 2 squads of DG, 5 Daemon engines and several supporting characters. There were only 2 left by the end of the game but they survived and the level of devastation they unleashed was amazing.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Conga-lined units, wrapped in layers.

 

If I Forlorn Fury a 9+ unit of jump pack DC I usually advance or UWoF Astorath near them so they don't take the morale hit.

 

Mostly I've moved to transportation mobility instead. You've seen a couple of my rhino lists. I've added a storm eagle to the mix also.

 

For my aggressive lists I take double storm bolter rhinos and storm bolter + heavy bolter backs. This allows me to keep my units in tight formation. This works much better now that we don't have to worry about templates or ordinance. (It has taken me a long time to get over that!)

 

So for Corbulo + chaplain + DC/VVs I usually run footies in AV. But with jump packs its Sangunoir + Captain + JP priest/Sanguinary Ancient. I usually deepstrike them together turn 2 and conga-line everything after initial charge.

 

I'll try to take some pictures to illustrate how I do some of this stuff.

[Tokugawa]

About traps...you all know what made Blood angels a real codex in 8th. Imo all the heroes dont have above-average wargears are some kind of traps.

[Charlo]

I suppose something that has been seldom mentioned here is ensuring your bubbles are touching multiple units.

 

There is a lot of excellent ideas here on how to support a unit with multiple characters - but I think it works best when you have one character supporting multiple units ;)

 

Imagine using one larger unit of DC with Forlorn turn one. Then turn 2 you have a second smaller DC squad and Lemartes come down to support them. Suddenly Lemartes has a whole lot more value. Sprinkle with a DC Dread charging a vehicle with Magna Grapple for an even better bubble-buster!

 

It can even be as simple as a Captain sat between a few shooting units - while 1's to hit isn't the same as Cawl's re-roll all hits in Ad Mech, principal is the same for sure!

 

BA have always been about Blitzkrieg, taking the Lemartes thing further - imagine if you dropped 3 or 4 squads of DC and a DC Dread down on a flank with Lemartes in tow for Charge re-rolls? That way you get more use from your character and you ensure more get into combat than ever and hopefully break a flank.

[dice4thedicegod]

Seems like priests are made for sanguinary guard using swords: +1 strength (from 4 to 5) is big, and the healing/resurrection is big. Same as the sanguinor, he really gives more back for his points when giving the guard extra attacks.

 

Personally, I think the answer to the auras is to have jump pack characters on the table (screened by intercessors or whatever) and then they can move normally so that they can support the rank & file unit that drops using descent of angels.

[Charlo]

Seems like priests are made for sanguinary guard using swords: +1 strength (from 4 to 5) is big, and the healing/resurrection is big. Same as the sanguinor, he really gives more back for his points when giving the guard extra attacks.

 

Personally, I think the answer to the auras is to have jump pack characters on the table (screened by intercessors or whatever) and then they can move normally so that they can support the rank & file unit that drops using descent of angels.

 

It's a shame they cost more than the fists then eh? 

BUT having S9/10 (forget how it works this edition) on top of Red Thirst +1 to wound means you are Knee-cappin' Knights on a 2+ !

[SanguiniusJr]

 

 

Seems like priests are made for sanguinary guard using swords: +1 strength (from 4 to 5) is big, and the healing/resurrection is big. Same as the sanguinor, he really gives more back for his points when giving the guard extra attacks.

 

Personally, I think the answer to the auras is to have jump pack characters on the table (screened by intercessors or whatever) and then they can move normally so that they can support the rank & file unit that drops using descent of angels.

It's a shame they cost more than the fists then eh?

BUT having S9/10 (forget how it works this edition) on top of Red Thirst +1 to wound means you are Knee-cappin' Knights on a 2+ !

And a number of knights don't have Invulns for Melee

[dice4thedicegod]

 

 

Seems like priests are made for sanguinary guard using swords: +1 strength (from 4 to 5) is big, and the healing/resurrection is big. Same as the sanguinor, he really gives more back for his points when giving the guard extra attacks.

 

Personally, I think the answer to the auras is to have jump pack characters on the table (screened by intercessors or whatever) and then they can move normally so that they can support the rank & file unit that drops using descent of angels.

It's a shame they cost more than the fists then eh?

BUT having S9/10 (forget how it works this edition) on top of Red Thirst +1 to wound means you are Knee-cappin' Knights on a 2+ !

I’m not sure how they came up with the points for encarmine swords, given that (identical) force swords are cheaper and (better) relic swords are cheaper... sigh

 

However, swords do look better than fists. So maybe it is an aesthetic tax.

[t-dog1996]

I see our strongest weapon as the Alpha Strike. Our biggest weakness as an army is that we lose power the longer a battle goes on. This applies both on the minor and major scale - we lose our combat advantage if it goes on for more than 1 turn, and our relatively low numbers mean we can't afford loads of casualties. Therefore we need to cause as much damage as quickly as possible.

 

My army operates as an Alpha Striking force with a reserve Beta Strike to keep up the momentum. Most of my games are normally effectively decided one way or the other by the end of turn 2 for this reason. Bubble auras are key to the success of my tactics, but I use Forlorn Fury to enhance them not render them useless.

 

Firstly, I have a gunline to anchor my army. An 8-man Devastator Squad with a cherub, 2 lascannons and 2 missile launchers, plus a 9-man Sternguard Veteran Squad with Special Issue Boltguns. These two units have the range to threaten most of the board and are buffed by a normal captain with a relic blade and a lieutenant with a plasma pistol. With the rerolling 1s on both hits and wounds these two units can lay down horrifying amounts of pain. Add in the signum and cherub for the Devastators, and Masterful Marksmanship for the Sternguards, and suddenly it gets even better.

 

Part 2 is a combo of my Slamguinius, my Stormraven and my Librarian Dreadnought. Thanks to Forlorn Fury, Wings of Sanguinius and the Stormraven being, well, a flyer, they can move up the table together and punch a hole in my opponent's army. The Stormraven can use its TL Assault Cannon and Hurricane Bolters to deal with any chaff, and its TL Multi-melta and Missiles to damage vehicles, buffed by the Slamguinius' captain aura. Meanwhile in combat Slamguinius doesn't need help - essentially nothing that you would see in a 2000 point game can last more than one round against him provided you use Red Rampage and Honour the Chapter. Meanwhile the Libby Dreadnought can attempt its own charge with help of the Quickening and the Wings reroll, and if you position things right he can take advantage of the captain aura from Slamguinius. If not Wisdom of Ancients is always there.

 

Turn 2 sees the arrival of Lemartes and the Jump Pack Death Company, plus the Death Company Dreadnought from the Stormraven. Lemartes aura means the DC can reroll their charge, and Descent of Angels makes it almost certain. Lemartes won't always make his charge but he has a good shout of it thanks to Fury Unbound, and just in case you can conga line a couple of your DC to ensure the unit still gets his reroll hits buff in combat.

 

Anyway, that's how I use auras in my games. Been very successful for me so far. As for the rest, when I run Corbulo I usually put him in a Land Raider with a bunch of footslogging DC. His exploding 6s pairs very well with red thirst and +1 strength. I don't see dropping down the Sanguinor and Sang Guard from Deep Strike as a good idea because there is no reroll charge option. When I take them I put them in a Stormraven. Not mindblowing on the tabletop but with the +1 attack aura certainly useable. I don't use the Standard of Sacrifice but I can see it being useful for keeping a gunline alive.

[Indefragable]

A. Deploy DC bomb super aggressively

B. Deploy Lemartes in a Stormraven as far forward as you dare

C. Forlorn Fury the DC bomb forward

D. Move Lemartes 15” from SR (12” + 3” disembark move)to give you possible 39” range (assuming you put SR at the top of your 24” deployment zone).

 

One way to get some extra range

[keeblerartillery]

Hey Mort - I'll give you some feedback on how I have used this stuff, but I'll say that it isn't entirely relevant to your usual playstyle/liststyle.

So the best bubble layer I have made was a company ancient w/ SoS, a foot captain and a deredeo dread with atomantic pavise.  I then put 3x5 hellblasters around them and walked them up the board.  This gave them a 5++, 5+++, 4+ stand up and shoot again, re-rolling 1s death ball of plasma.  It was a super effective, slightly mobile firebase - the only downside was the cost.  But in every game that I have run it, it has been the last thing standing - not one entire unit has been killed (except the deredeo) in 3+ games.  It straight up obliterated Mortarian in one game after he did his shenanigans and erased my right flank.  Mass plasma on 2W models who can take a charge - not to be underrated.  

Some thoughts I am currently having on bubbles - I posted my proposed list on your other topic, so won't do it again, but something I am considering is dropping my quad mortar and adding suppressors.  I will Forlorn one CPT slam, and wings + descent the other to have two CPTs and a libby in someone's face ASAP.  I am going to jump my storm shield wielding vets + priest up the table and T2 drop suppressors and DC+Lemmy.  I will hopefully be able to cancel some overwatch with the newly dropped fire support while getting my other jump troops into bubble range of the CPTs already engaged. Kind of a spin off your idea with Mephy - but essentially creating phase lines of bubbles (sorry, military term but couldn't think of another label) - enemy line, moving mid-board, and back-line.  Back-line bubbles will be dependent upon who gets T1 and whether the CPT gets forlorn'd in or not and will support the sicarans/bikes. 

Again, I think BA rely on synergy - not just within the list itself but also tactics.  You need to be all-in on either blitzkrieg tactics or combined arms.  I think your contemptor lists are more suited for a combined arms approach - that could benefit from an ancient/deredeo firebase.  But if you go blitzkrieg, it will be about moving layers and target prioritization and massing effects on those targets - thereby concentrating your bubbles.  I think with sicarans, bikes and intercessors are great as mobile/durable fire support for the blitzkrieg style that could benefit from jump pack bubbles/provide better support for those fast movers. 

Sorry for the wall of text, just, again, stream of consciousness-ing my thoughts!  

[Remtek]

I have not found a great way to maximise bubbles for combat units . So much stuff has to 'click' in order to maintain coherency. In my soup list i have been running a sangunary guard model as warlord (no warlord trait then)  so they get re-rolls without character support. I do have sanguinor in that list, but his bubble has only been useful vs aggressive opponents (Custode bike spam, knights, talos or similar stuff)

 

In my pure BA list i run the sanguinary ancient FNP banner with 15-18 regular bikes. Sanguinary priest/corbs has been added to the list and removed again multiple times , there are so many characters i want.  It's really easy to have him follow bikes and occasionally be in position to support deep strikers.

 

Closest thing to auras for a small firebase has been the dreadnought re-roll 1 strat, or just parking some scouts there and investing more in the forward units.

[Morticon]

After much thought (but no playtesting) I'm going to be giving Astorath a concerted bash.  

I've re-read the specifics of his rule (which I have misunderstood the whole of 8th it seems) and figured out how to get the best use from it. 

 

Mass of Doom is triggered at the START of the MOVEMENT phase -something i had COMPLETELY overlooked and/or forgotten.

So....

With a DC and a VanVet (or even Smash Cap) right next to Astorath you can get the most from his Mass of Doom in the following way:

 

1:  Forlorn Fury DC - this works best on DC rather than the Smashy on account of having more bodies to play with. 

 

With the 32mm bases, and a 6" required distance from Astorath, you only need to conga three marines (four/Five with advance) from front to back to be within range of him. 

 

This means that you've covered 12-18" already, and are still in range of Astorath at the start of the movement.
 

2:  Van Vet/Smashy  Wings of Fire.  - Since this strat also cues at the start of the movement phase, we get to choose what happens.  

 

 

Soooo....

We trigger Mass of Doom - and BAMN! We have two fighty units hitting on 2s.  

Vanguard then redeploy, ready for Descent of Angels charge and DC then make their ACTUAL move.  

 

 

3:  With an advance move (and even without on a long board edge game) You can still manage to get Astorath well into bubble support range of the DC after their actual movement. 

 

 

4: Profit. 

[keeblerartillery]

I was literally thinking about this as well. Time to start kitbashing astorath...

[Karhedron]

I was literally thinking about this as well. Time to start kitbashing astorath...

I am doing a kitbashed Astorath as I think the regular one looks a bit too Dracula. 

 

I am planning to use this guy as the basis. Just give him a skull helm instead of the bare head and he is pretty much good to go.

 

[Remtek]

His an absolute steal at 105 pts. I have run him with 30 intercessors + 10 fist sanguinary guard. Vs an aggressive list, giving all the intercessors WS2+ is madness when combined with corbulo. His 6+ to wound is flat 3 also becomes a natural 5+ making him a good character hunter The artificer armor means you can throw him into a mob of boyz alone.

[Wassa]

But is the trade off of chaining 3-4 marines and so them being out of combat worth the benefit of the +1 to hit for the others?

[keeblerartillery]

But is the trade off of chaining 3-4 marines and so them being out of combat worth the benefit of the +1 to hit for the others?

The key is they still get their regular move and charge and consolidation afterwards. So you aren’t necessarily missing out with them.

[Morticon]

 

But is the trade off of chaining 3-4 marines and so them being out of combat worth the benefit of the +1 to hit for the others?

The key is they still get their regular move and charge and consolidation afterwards. So you aren’t necessarily missing out with them.

 

 

Yup! That's the key.  Just need to chain them before their regular move.  Afterwards, if you want to chain again, you can get rerolls too, but may not be necessary, depending on weapon load out.  

His 6+ to wound is flat 3 also becomes a natural 5+ making him a good character hunter 

 

Nice catch- didnt realise this. 

[keeblerartillery]

 

I was literally thinking about this as well. Time to start kitbashing astorath...

I am doing a kitbashed Astorath as I think the regular one looks a bit too Dracula.

 

I am planning to use this guy as the basis. Just give him a skull helm instead of the bare head and he is pretty much good to go.

 

I totally agree - he looks like count chocula to me. Trying to figure out how to capture “the grim” part best - that model is a great start!

[Leonaides]

Just a heads up - that guy is tiny. Having just painted him against a normal plastic kitbashed capt and against primaris he is in need of a bulked out base.