Astartes Age of Ascension

[Panzer]

If I recall correctly Guilliman even said in Devastation of Baal that there's no evidence that recruits from a deathworld are better than others so there's no reason why the Blood Angels should leave the people on Baal and her moons live like they do (barely surviving in salt deserts contaminated by radiation etc.).

I mean there's probably something to be said about the attitude of people growing up not living the easy life so they are less likely to give up during the trials but physically they should be worse off unless there's some mutations happening over the generations like with the Catachans for example.

[Sete]

Typical talk from a guy that grew up in a palace ;)

[The Unseen]

Because, especially for the Blood Angels, physically speaking anyone who's fairly compatible can be turned into an Astartes, with the usual failure chances.

The legion recruitment methods show that, they inducted 10s of thousands of people, sometimes from the same planets who now supply merely a single chapter.

It isn't the process is worse, it's the requirements are harsher, because it was made that way to help prevent more Astartes from falling to chaos.

To many unstable/selfish/weak willed people got handed the powers of a demi god and went nuts with it.

 

And BA geneseed can turn a rad scarred malnourished scavenger into a perfect Astartes in literally a year (spent in a blood coffin, but still)

The tests and trials are not to weed out just the aspirants physically, though that is a part of it.

But it's primarily to weed them out mentally/spiritually.

 

Like, out of the literature examples, most of the really physically demanding training happens *after* the aspirants have already started the process, and presumably after they've been well fed and have access to proper medical care.

The Order, before the legions came, had its aspirants stand outside in the snow for a night.

Very few died, it was a test of will, a test of "do you want this bad enough to potentially lose your fingers and toes painfully from frostbite over the next 10 hours". The boys who failed didn't fail because their bodies gave out, their mentality did.

 

In whatever book Dante was an aspirant, I forget the title, the tests involve physicallity, competitions amongst other aspirants mostly, but the main trial is making it to the testing place (which on Baal means your either clever, lucky, or incredibly tough, and probably some combination) at all, and the final trial isn't a test of the body at all, it's a test of the aspirants spirit, and whether he will or won't betray his fellows for personal gain.

 

Marines dont recruit from deathworlds because the recruits are physically superior, but rather for their mentality.

These are child soldiers that are going to be brainwashed and biologically alteted to be entirely loyal transhuman killing machines.

You don't want kids who grew up with cushy nice lives, because none of them are going to be *natural* killers, except the sociopaths, and you don't want those.

 

And that will is cultivated by having to scrap and claw and fight to survive for as long as you can remember, a refusal to give up.

Which is much much more valuable for an Asartes aspirant than one who is slightly more muscular, or faster, etc, as all those difference become moot when you pump them all full of hypersteroids and extra organs, but the person behind it does not.

 

The ultras, as an example, have an incredibly militaristic culture, which could grant aspirants the same kind of mentality.

 

Deathworlds aren't the only way, but they are the simplest.

[Panzer]

Because, especially for the Blood Angels, physically speaking anyone who's fairly compatible can be turned into an Astartes, with the usual failure chances.

The legion recruitment methods show that, they inducted 10s of thousands of people, sometimes from the same planets who now supply merely a single chapter.

It isn't the process is worse, it's the requirements are harsher, because it was made that way to help prevent more Astartes from falling to chaos.

To many unstable/selfish/weak willed people got handed the powers of a demi god and went nuts with it.

 

And BA geneseed can turn a rad scarred malnourished scavenger into a perfect Astartes in literally a year (spent in a blood coffin, but still)

The tests and trials are not to weed out just the aspirants physically, though that is a part of it.

But it's primarily to weed them out mentally/spiritually.

 

Like, out of the literature examples, most of the really physically demanding training happens *after* the aspirants have already started the process, and presumably after they've been well fed and have access to proper medical care.

The Order, before the legions came, had its aspirants stand outside in the snow for a night.

Very few died, it was a test of will, a test of "do you want this bad enough to potentially lose your fingers and toes painfully from frostbite over the next 10 hours". The boys who failed didn't fail because their bodies gave out, their mentality did.

 

In whatever book Dante was an aspirant, I forget the title, the tests involve physicallity, competitions amongst other aspirants mostly, but the main trial is making it to the testing place (which on Baal means your either clever, lucky, or incredibly tough, and probably some combination) at all, and the final trial isn't a test of the body at all, it's a test of the aspirants spirit, and whether he will or won't betray his fellows for personal gain.

 

Marines dont recruit from deathworlds because the recruits are physically superior, but rather for their mentality.

These are child soldiers that are going to be brainwashed and biologically alteted to be entirely loyal transhuman killing machines.

You don't want kids who grew up with cushy nice lives, because none of them are going to be *natural* killers, except the sociopaths, and you don't want those.

 

And that will is cultivated by having to scrap and claw and fight to survive for as long as you can remember, a refusal to give up.

Which is much much more valuable for an Asartes aspirant than one who is slightly more muscular, or faster, etc, as all those difference become moot when you pump them all full of hypersteroids and extra organs, but the person behind it does not.

 

The ultras, as an example, have an incredibly militaristic culture, which could grant aspirants the same kind of mentality.

 

Deathworlds aren't the only way, but they are the simplest.

 

Plausible and I mentioned it myself (but with less words), however if you look at the wider picture and the fact that there are plenty chapters who recruit from worlds where people live properly, it doesn't hold.

Also the book Dante was an aspirant in is literally called Dante. The way to the testing grounds also isn't the test. It was for Dante and probably several others because they traveled alone from far away, but there's a whole "city" and merchants travel there regularly so there are plenty of aspirants who just went there with their family and such like they probably have done every year to trade and such. 

 

Anyway, that wasn't the main argument and just a sideremark. The main argument was the age of ascension and that people don't become adults with 12 just because they live on a deathworld. Maybe they have more rights at a younger age (so legally 'adults') but physically they won't be. ^^

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The Chapters that recruit from non-death worlds, like the Ultramarines or Fire Angels, usually have some other aspect to life that makes recruits mentally fit for Astartes conditioning. The Fire Angels recruit a mix of hive gangers and militant nobility: a mix of down hive scum who have to scrape by to survive, and young West Point students. Both groups will be mentally tough, prepared to fight and die at the drop of a hat. That warrior mindset is what the recruiters need to see.

[Preliminary Bombardment]

I think you could also take the preference of recruiting from thinly populated death worlds with little ability to provide any industrial resource to a Chapter as just another example of the Imperium being hidebound, illogical and highly inefficient. I mean I doubt your average flesh tearer type chapter think clearly most of the time.

[Ishagu]

On the topic of Baal and other death worlds, Guilliman said the following to Dante:

 

"It's easy for a man to sell his soul a Daemon when he already lives in hell"

 

That quote isn't 100% accurate but close enough. It's an interesting outlook, and we might see big changes to Baal in the lore going forward. The worlds might become a prosperous, civilised system. The Ultras recruit from a highly educated pool of potential Astartes. Young men are inducted into programs that assess and train them, and if they don't qualify to become an Astartes they move on to other useful roles.

What makes a better Space Marine in the end? Someone tough or lucky enough to survive in a hell hole with little water or someone training in theory and practice from a young age to become an elite soldier?

 

Edit: Fixed Typos

[b1soul]

""It's easy for a man to sell his soul a Daemon when he already lives in hell"

 

Guilliman dropping truth bombs

[Sete]

Civilization is 3 meals away from colapse. Take the conforts out of people used to them and see how fast do the mighty fall.

I would put my money on dudes used to hardships.