Bad and Good Deaths in the HH Series

[b1soul]

"Bad" from a story-telling perspective in your opinion...

 

I really think the deaths of Nemiel, Shadrak Meduson, and Jubal Khan fall utterly flat. Which other character arcs should have been given more room to develop in your opinion?

 

As for "good", impactful deaths, Saul Tarvitz, Torgaddon, and the TSon captains who fall in A Thousand Sons come to mind. I also like Mersadie Oliton's end. I felt a bit ambivalent about how Argel Tal makes his exit.

 

As for good "fake" deaths, I am fine with Loken's return and I think Eidolon's resurrection is handled surprisingly well, especially with Wraight's development of him in Path of Heaven

[bluntblade]

I have no complaints about Jubal's to be honest. Like Boreas, the whole idea is that potential stories are being cut short because that's how the great slaughter goes. And the fight itself is a tight, vicious affair to match.

[mc warhammer]

i didn’t like the idea of jubal’s but i’ll reserve judgment till reading. it just feels like we could have gotten more time with him, even if he was never going to get the plot armour that sigismund or amit or abaddon have

 

i felt similarly about alpharius. yes, it’s a kinda clever way to give us an unexpected primarch death without altering the lore as we know it...but the “promise” of twin primarchs never felt fulfilled before it was taken away. the death was well written, just anti climatic insofar as the alpha legion story goes. i’m hoping they go back and explore it some

 

and lorgar, since adb wasn’t allowed to kill him. i wanna read it badly now

[Marshal Loss]

Jubal's death was excellent. The struggle between him and Abaddon showcased the best of both characters and is all we can realistically ask for imo. Bluntblade makes a really good point regarding context, too. It is always a pleasure to be genuinely shocked by a demise.

 

To be honest I'm actually struggling to think of deaths I strongly disagreed with. I took more issue with Loken coming back than any one death that springs to mind so far. My favourite deaths were probably Alpharius, Qin Xa, Argel Tal, and Maloghurst. I'm sure as people post my memory will get jogged and something that that I've repressed will leap up to irritate me, but for now, I'm surprisingly mellow about the whole thing.

[Ganders]

I agree that Nemiel's death was one of the worst. But i don't think it fell flat, for me it was one of the most jarring, out of character moments in the series.

 

For almost any of the primarchs at that time of the heresy to kill one of their loyal sons on the bridge of a ship for disagreeing with him was, to me, ridiculous. And then to carry on as if it was no big deal and to not revisit any repercussions later (unless i missed a short somewhere).

[aa.logan]

The death of Shadrak Meduson completely took me by surprise; I had to re-read the paragraphs beforehand a few times before I could quite accept it. Bleak; unexpected and unglamorous. Perfect in my eyes.

[Knight of the Raven]

Alpharius' death was the sole reason I even bought Praetorian of Dorn to begin with, but it is Argel Tal I wish to talk about here.

I absolutely adored his death, even though I'd been spoiled that he died in Betrayer before I even knew that book existed—indeed, before I even knew Argel Tal himself existed. Erebus played him like a fiddle from start to finish and I enjoyed every second of it.

Lorgar specifically tells Argel Tal not to accept any offer of Erebus', as that would lead to his doom. But in the end, he was deemed a threat that needed to be destroyed for the good of Chaos because of a request he asked from Erebus.

Mind you, as I said, Erebus played him the whole time. What prompted Argel Tal's request was a particular part of his tale of the battle of Calth; a tale 'Destiny's Hand' offered to tell him seemingly out of the blue, so that Argel Tal may 'judge his success or failure for himself' after Lorgar dressed his dear First Chaplain down when he came strutting into his chamber to announce the 'success beyond all expectations' of the surprise attack.

A fiddle, I tell you.

 

edit: from a story-telling perspective, beyond my love for it, I'd call the whole thing good for the story because Erebus is shown as a skilled, subtle manipulator; something I've been told the Horus Heresy literature didn't display at all until then (and possibly since then as well) even though that's supposed to be his entire point narratively.

[Lord Marshal]

Shadrak Meduson's death made me irrationally angry and not in a good way.

[bluntblade]

There's the question of what a death is saying, too. Meduson's irks me because what theme there is, we've already seen with Ferrus, right down to the manner of dispatch.

[b1soul]

I probably would've appreciated Jubal's death more if it had occurred at the Siege, after a bit more development of his character.

 

His death is rather abrupt and unceremonious in Solar War, which is fine...but frankly, I feel that sort of unceremonious offing would've been more hard-hitting had it happened to a better established character, not an interesting but IMO half-developed character. Boreas' death has more impact than Jubal's thanks to his final words with Sigismund.

 

Perhaps I just feel that Wraight sets Jubal up so excellently in Path of Heaven and gives us an interesting and unexpected origin in Warhawk of Chogoris . . . his death simply strikes me as mis-timed from a story-telling perspective. To me, it lacks oomph...it was simply "oh, an interesting character is suddenly dead...cuz people die". Just left me scratching my head really. 

 

As for Meduson, I suppose his death is suitably grimdark, but as a reader, I was never shown, before his death, why he's  held up  as such a legendary war-leader/figurehead among the Shattered Legions. A great leader meeting a grim fate is all fine and dandy, but his legendary exploits, before meeting that fate, are never developed well enough.

 

 

[bluntblade]

Jubal was a well-developed supporting character (for all that he's a leading figure in the Legion), for my money. 

[DarkChaplain]

I agree that Nemiel's death was one of the worst. But i don't think it fell flat, for me it was one of the most jarring, out of character moments in the series.

 

For almost any of the primarchs at that time of the heresy to kill one of their loyal sons on the bridge of a ship for disagreeing with him was, to me, ridiculous. And then to carry on as if it was no big deal and to not revisit any repercussions later (unless i missed a short somewhere).

 

In Dreadwing, the Dark Angels are commenting on Nemiel's death, and the Lion's general disposition. Some choice excerpts:

 

 

‘He has not been the same since Chemos,’ muttered Gawain.

‘Since Davin,’ Danaeus corrected him.

‘We all heard what happened to Brother-Redemptor Nemiel,’ Redloss added. ‘For the crime of possessing principles and standing to them, the primarch took his head. I would not want to come across him in such a mood unprepared.’

Holguin laughed. ‘I see now.’ Redloss sensed a kind of despairing mania in him, as if he might almost welcome his brothers’ fire. Holding one hand up, he carefully lowered the other to holster his pistol. ‘Were you hoping to press your case with him alone? Did you fear that he would react poorly to your arguments?’

 

Distrust and general dissatisfaction with the Lion's actions and decisions are the meat of Dreadwing in general, including criticisms about his dealing with Luther.

 

On top of that, in Angels of Caliban, Nemiel's death triggers a ripple effect for Zahariel, and even Belath, Astelan's earlier rival from Tales of Heresy, is uncomfortable talking about it. He tries to avoid the subject in multiple ways, but Zahariel extracts the info through psychic means, giving us an excerpt from the death scene. In a sense, the Lion's ill humors in that moment directly lead towards the purge on Caliban and the sabotage of Dark Angels reinforcements to the Heresy War, which then leads towards Luther openly trying to court the Warmaster's side by aiding Typhon, and the tragedies that followed.

 

The Dark Angels with the Lion carry on out of a sense of duty and honor, swallowing their misgivings at least outwardly, although they still doubt and disapprove, and at times communicate that out of earshot. It's yet another shameful secret in a Legion based on secrets and half-truths. It wasn't the first time Jonson acted... poorly, and they all know it.

 

 

 

As for Alpharius, his death had a lot of impact precisely because it cut all the Alpha Legion's schemes short. They thought they were oh so clever and superior, good enough to play the odds not one way or the other, but both, for a third, unlikely outcome. They've been at odds with one another for years and years, mistrusting one another and meddling in many pies. But for all their tricks and schemes, all their long-term plans - their own arrogance brought it all tumbling down and forced Omegon and the Legion to change everything, while the Legion remained very much split and splintered. The utter, spectacular failure of their 4D Chess session was inevitable and necessary for the wider setting and story. There was never going to be any big payoff from the Acuity. The Cabal's manipulations would not work out. And everything Alpharius and Omegon worked towards, each in their own way, separately but united in some nebulous, far-distant purpose? It had to come crashing down and tear the Legion apart with no hope of remaining so intricately organized. They had to be broken into what we know them as in 40k, and the death of a Primarch was precisely the way to do it, especially when it places the B-Primarch into a position that is completely at odds with everything that came before, and a spot incompatible with their entire effort so far.

[b1soul]

I would've liked Jubal to have developed into more of a leading figure before being offed. As it was, I felt unsatisfied. 

 

I thought Alpharius' death was not necessary, but also not handled badly. In fact, his death also gave Dorn some much needed teeth if you will. 

[Blindhamster]

i felt Jubals was good, he was shown to be badass, but it also highlighted something important - Abaddon is very skilled, and in the case of Jubal, knew how his counterpart fought so knew he couldn't rely on his usual tactic. It was sad but appropriate.

I didn't like Tarvitz death because you don't even get to know what happens, it was left in a way that had people clamouring for him to not be dead because of the room left there (he had more of a right to be alive than loken to be fair).

 

[b1soul]

Back to Jubal, I would also add that I understand French was trying to convey the grim reality of war. People die. Jubal's death was also a way to subvert reader expectation that character arcs should build to pay-offs. 

 

But frankly, if subverting expectation and showing the fickle nature of war was the purpose, it would've been ballsier to off someone like Aximand. Readers expect there to be a confrontation before the end between Loken and Aximand. French could've made a stronger point by denying readers that. Rather, Jubal's death is a relatively safe choice with little impact in my view. Yes, it does show how dangerous a fighter Abaddon is...but frankly, that's already very well-established. I don't think Jubal needs to die to reinforce a well-known fact.

 

On Nemiel, I would've liked there to have been more immediate repercussions in The Lion rather than later in Dreadwing. Killing a loyal son because he reminded you of the Emperor's Edict,very out of character for someone who says "loyalty [to the Emperor] is its own reward". I suppose the Lion was under extreme stress, but then a bigger deal should've been made out of that.   

[Fire Golem]

I’d argue Abaddon hasn’t really been shown as a dangerous fighter (or as much of anything at all) in the Horus Heresy series itself.

[Kelborn]

In the end, even Primarchs are just flawed humans. ;)

[Roomsky]

I've been fairly outspoken before about the series needing MORE death, and that if some characters were going to get plot armour they shouldn't have been as much of a focus as they were. For that reason there aren't really any deaths that I object to on principal.

 

Character death that I felt added to their stories were usually somewhat shocking narratively, but are nonetheless tied in to the direction of the story and hammering home the severity of the Heresy war. I've never been one to say a character "deserved" a better end, that's never really been in the spirit of 40k. Great examples I think are: Karkasy, Petronalla Vivar, Namatjira and his retinue, Zeth, Phosis T`Kar, the friends of Kasper Hawser, Kasper Hawser ("death"), Xaphen, Atharva, Eidolon ("Death") Argel Tal, Hasik, Yesugei, Alpharius, Meduson, Hathor Maat, Bror, and Jubal.

 

The major character death in Galaxy in Flames would be in the above chart if written by someone other than Ben Counter. I liked Maloghurst's death, but it should have gotten a bit more of a reaction from the supporting cast.

 

Some fell flat for reasons the authors couldn't have really foreseen. Ferrus and Santar's deaths work fine in a vacuum, but with how sprawling the Heresy has become they're really just disappointing at this point. Ferrus needed to be an active character throughout the opening trilogy, and his legion given a few more reasons to be well-loved before dropping the hammer. Speaking of Iron Hands, I liked Henricos' death but considering how much more character Wraight has given him since Little Horus, it's kind of a shame we never got a full novel about the subject. Nemiel's death was frustrating, but I don't think it would have been so if (much as I'm loathe to admit it) Thorpe had been given the Lion's reigns from the start. The action fits perfectly well with his character in Angels of Caliban, but makes very little sense with the man we saw in Descent and Fallen Angels

 

There aren't too many I'd call bad, at least for significant characters. Maloq Kartho's "death" was absurd and convenient, a fitting capper for a novella that was full of the same. Qruze's death came about in a bad scene that made no sense anyway, so it sort of bled into his end. There's also no reason Loken had to survive Isstvan 3, Qruze could have filled his spot in the series perfectly well. If the pilot who died in The Buried Dagger was supposed to be Rassuah, it seemed needlessly spiteful of other author's work with Swallow's pet faction.

[Rob P]

Personally I was frustrated by Shadrak Meduson's death because what a waste of a great character. But the reason he died was fantastic for the Iron Hands' arc well into future.

 

I was also surprised by Argel Tal's death - I was suckered in to the idea of him getting to Terra.

 

I have not read The Solar War, but again, I'm frustrated that Jubal dies because of the character opportunity rather than the poor death angle.

 

Solomon Demeter was a cracking death. I flippin loved the scene(s) in Know No Fear where the first UM captain gets killed' - it was actually better in the promo material where they clumped it into one vignette than in the novel.

[mc warhammer]

As for Alpharius, his death had a lot of impact precisely because it cut all the Alpha Legion's schemes short. They thought they were oh so clever and superior, good enough to play the odds not one way or the other, but both, for a third, unlikely outcome. They've been at odds with one another for years and years, mistrusting one another and meddling in many pies. But for all their tricks and schemes, all their long-term plans - their own arrogance brought it all tumbling down and forced Omegon and the Legion to change everything, while the Legion remained very much split and splintered. The utter, spectacular failure of their 4D Chess session was inevitable and necessary for the wider setting and story. There was never going to be any big payoff from the Acuity. The Cabal's manipulations would not work out. And everything Alpharius and Omegon worked towards, each in their own way, separately but united in some nebulous, far-distant purpose? It had to come crashing down and tear the Legion apart with no hope of remaining so intricately organized. They had to be broken into what we know them as in 40k, and the death of a Primarch was precisely the way to do it, especially when it places the B-Primarch into a position that is completely at odds with everything that came before, and a spot incompatible with their entire effort so far.

 

 

i agree with everything here, and my point wasn't that his death had no impact or that it didn't serve some narrative purpose.

 

i'll see if i can explain my position more clearly; if a concept or reveal is made, usually there's a pay off. we're given the revelation that the XX has twin primarchs, which opens up the questions of why and more importantly...where will they go with this?

 

there's a lot of conjecture that the twins were at odds, but this has never really been defined or explored, so it remains conjecture. the idea that omegon now has to drastically alter course without his twin would be an excellent swerve if we had even a muddy idea of each twin's particular course, whether they were aligned or not, etc etc. maybe i missed the books that outlined what the orginal goals were and how now omegon is at odds with them?

 

essentially...what is the point of twin primarchs? you can test this by removing the concept from the story and seeing what it changes. and really? you could have not had omegon at all and just swapped him out for any number of alpharius impersonators. you could still kill alpharius during PoD and more or less ended up in the same place with the alpha legion plans being truncated. any schism in the legion before or after PoD could have come about through various factions led by various "alpharius'". why does it need to be alpharius and omegon specifically?

 

to my mind, it's the same as revealing vulcan is a perpetual and then never having him regenerate or live a long life.  it makes it feel like an idea without purpose.

 

i'm really hoping they go back in time and explore the twin's nature some more.

[mc warhammer]

I've been fairly outspoken before about the series needing MORE death, and that if some characters were going to get plot armour they shouldn't have been as much of a focus

 

....Kasper Hawser ("death"),

 

agreed on the more death. it's the same problem that the battle of winterfell had on GoT

 

and yeah, kasper's is my favourite "death" by a mile

[mc warhammer]

Jubal was a well-developed supporting character (for all that he's a leading figure in the Legion), for my money. 

 

what i've read of jubal so far (the short with sig and his appearance in the primarch book) has been...more or less...that he's a very good fighter. i would be hard pressed to write more about him. def not as much about him as say qruze or archamus or severian.

 

does the seige book flesh him out significantly before it red vipers him?

[Marshal Rohr]

The Heresy series has walked an unfortunate line of the characters who’ve needed to die (the famous ones from before the series even began) have not, and well developed and fleshed our characters have but because the other ones exist it doesn’t really matter. Like the only people who should’ve survived the series were Ahriman, Khârn, Lucius, and Typhon and the names second founding chapter masters. None of them should’ve ever had significant books until their one moment they’re famous for. They should not have been reoccurring characters and at best, should’ve been supporting characters when they did appear. As great as Argel Tals arc was, Erebus and Kor Phaeron appearing everywhere in 30k and 40k drown it out. The worst part is them creating minor characters out of whole cloth we know don’t die because they’ve already been written in after the siege. Who cares about Maximus thane. He’s never going to be in real danger.

[Dagoth Ur]

Best deaths

 

Shadrak Meduson particularly because it is so infiuriating and cements the iron fathers as the foundation of what the Iron Hands became 10k years down the line. Prosaically, it could have been written better I think, but I enjoyed the duality of both his own growing sense of pride and anger, which threatened to lead him down a similar path as his primarch, but also how that is the inception of the Iron Hands as Ferrus never envisioned them.

 

Argel Tal's whole arc felt like a really interesting blend of greek and germanic tragedy where the hero walks with all the sureness of a foretold fate, but then has the rug pulled out from beneath him when fate itself becomes mutable in its interpretation (Reminded me of the evil ending of Witcher 3: Heart of Stone, actually). I think it also provided a nice alternative to the big cast of staple characters that we have and that, by virtue of the fact that they are still alive in 40k, cannot die during the Heresy.

 

Worst Deaths

 

Alpharius, not because it was badly written (it wasn't) and not because I am a massive Alpha Legion fanboy (I am), but because it deprived us of the whole budding Alpharius vs. Omegon narrative that was slowly building. I feel like what we got was a well-written story with little to no large scale consequences in terms of character death at best, or Imperial Fists fan service at best, and were deprived of a potentially much more interesting story line.

 

Erebus. It hasn't happened yet.

[b1soul]

@ mc warhammer

 

Jubal's introduction in Path of Heaven sets his character up quite nicely and contrasts him with Qin Xa. He seems to represent the legion's future after Xa and Yesugei bite the dust, and becomes the first Master of the Hunt in the same book. I guess in Solar War, he's an intentional exercise in unfulfilled expectations.