Bad and Good Deaths in the HH Series

[b1soul]

Vendatha kills three Astartes (who are surprised by his initial assault) before getting headshotted by a fourth Astartes...that's hardly on par with Inferno. Replace Vendatha with any outraged Legion champion in that scene, and you'd likely get a similar result.

[mc warhammer]

the explanation back then iirc was that these were particularly elite custodes though that skillset appears to have changed now to apply all custodes

[b1soul]

Post-Inferno and MoM, it's hard to imagine a Custodes slaying only three surprised Space Marines before falling.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Didn't he kill a chapter master, chaplain and captain within seconds of each other? These extremely experienced soldiers that could tell that the custode was getting highly upset, but couldn't react before getting slain? And lorgar could have been killed if he hadn't been read his rights? The impression I got, was that if vendatha had just gone for the kill instead of giving lorgar ever opportunity to stop, he would have just carved through them all.

 

Custodes have always been extremely skilled; Blood Games has haedo, some random custodian challenge dorn and seem very unconcerned about having to fight him.

Edited July 26, 2019 by SkimaskMohawk

[b1soul]

My man...

 

In Blood Games, it is explicitly stated that only a fool would try to predict the outcome of a contest between a Custodes and a Astartes, the physical difference being rarely noticeable and the greater difference being mental in that Custodes are solitary whereas Astartes exemplify brotherhood.

 

That's not the case anymore is it? Custodes are far stronger, faster,and tougher than the inferior Astartes product. There is no contest. Only a fool could not predict the outcome of such a contest.

 

Vendatha was himself a very skilled Custodes sent to watch a Primarch according to ADB. So assuming all three WB were very skilled as well, that's still a very low kill-count compared to what the Custodes pull in MoM or Inferno

[Marshal Loss]

Vendatha's death is not really at odds with later depictions of Custodes; he only killed three in The First Heretic because he paused in an (ultimately misguided) attempt to take Lorgar into custody.

 

edit: grammar

Edited July 26, 2019 by Marshal Loss

[Angel_of_Blood]

We'll just not even mention the Custodes from The Outcast Dead and Sword of Truth.

[mc warhammer]

i mean, situations are as important as their base power levels, right? there will be situations where vendatha would slice through 10 marines as if they were made of butter and another where 1 marine could kill the crap out of him.

 

unless i'm misremembering, i think the scenes in first heretic hold up under both interpretations of custodes.

[b1soul]

He paused because he found Xaphen's bolter muzzle in his face. Yeah, that would make one pause.

[Marshal Loss]

My memory might be a little off as I thought the two actions were simultaneous. Even if I'm wrong though it is, as mc warhammer noted, contextual. Arresting/attempting to harm a Primarch isn't exactly the norm even for a Custodian, and I don't think a Custodian managing to kill three Astartes so their bodies drop in slow-motion while a fourth barely manages to raise his gun and take aim contradicts any of the post-First Heretic material at all. Context matters and comparing depictions based on kill-count is just silly.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The only custode we see rack up a kill count in MoM is Ra, and he's a Tribune; are you trying to say that vendatha can kill his way through a group of pre-readied word bearer commanders because he's "an elite custode" but it doesn't hold up to his superior's tally?

 

And Amon sure did think that the differences were only noticeably significant under specific cases. But like, killing three ogryn bare handed, out of armour seems to show off their prowess pretty well and those noticeable differences. He punches through the sternum and rips out one of their hearts...

Edited July 26, 2019 by SkimaskMohawk

[Angel_of_Blood]

And Amon sure did think that the differences were only noticeably significant under specific cases. But like, killing three ogryn bare handed, out of armour seems to show off their prowess pretty well and those noticeable differences. He punches through the sternum and rips out one of their hearts...

 

Just a pity an unarmoured fracking World Eater can punch through a Custodians armour and rip out his spine.....

Edited July 26, 2019 by Angel_of_Blood

[SkimaskMohawk]

Pretty sure the outcast dead has some other major plot inconsistencies lol

[b1soul]

"We'll just not even mention the Custodes from The Outcast Dead and Sword of Truth."

 

That and the fact Blood Games states Astartes and Custodes are physically almost equal and roughly even in a fight. The old lore simply did not support Inferno power levels. Blood Games flat-out contradicts it, and First Heretic is ambiguous at best.

[Fedor]

sgt Tagore of the World Eaters. The real combat colossus of the Heresy.

[SkimaskMohawk]

"We'll just not even mention the Custodes from The Outcast Dead and Sword of Truth."

 

That and the fact Blood Games states Astartes and Custodes are physically almost equal and roughly even in a fight. The old lore simply did not support Inferno power levels. Blood Games flat-out contradicts it, and First Heretic is ambiguous at best.

I've never listened to sword of truth, since I prefer reading books. Maybe I should get around to it since Garro exists, but Swallow isn't a great author and skipping all the garro stuff hasn't impacted the series.

 

Outcast Dead. Well first of all, the book is bad. You can take it out of the series and it will actually improve it as the book basically ruins the timeline. So yes, plot points are easy to not mention when the book itself is an equivalent to the star wars prequels. You also don't get to pretend it's set in the "old lore" as it came out after First Heretic.

 

I've already talked about Blood Games; Amon's opinion is that there's certain conditions where one would notice the difference between the two group's abilities. That's rather vague, and using that to say "they're the same, there's really no difference" is fairly ridiculous when the same guy stomps through the ogryn in a scene so devoid of tension that he literally gets tired of fighting them in the scene. And then of course is there to talk down at Dorn and his huscarls.

 

If you think that First Heretic is ambiguous about Vendatha killing 3 prepared, command level marines in 3 seconds then I don't know what to tell you. Maybe re-read the passage. If it's about how they die later in the book, they died to twice their number of Gal Vorbak including a chapter master and chaplain, after surviving being shot down, after fighting a battle automata. And they still killed half of them. 

[Darkwrath121]

ADB has summed it up best in a recent reddit comment (I can link if need be, here).

Custodes from the First Heretic onwards are consistent with their current lore abilities. Cutting through entire squads of marines solo in Inferno. A single Custodian cutting through 3 high ranking marines before they can react in TFH.

It's pretty consistent these days. He says that Outcast Dead, Blood Games, and some others (Like Prospero Burns) were written before there was a proper discussion of how powerful Custodes should be, so that depiction is outdated.

Think that's about as conclusive as we can get on that.

Edited July 26, 2019 by Darkwrath121

[b1soul]

@Skimaskmohawk

"If you think that First Heretic is ambiguous about Vendatha killing 3 prepared, command level marines in 3 seconds then I don't know what to tell you."

 

Yeah...I don't know what to tell you. Vendatha himself is elite among the Custodes.

So it's comparable to an average Custodes cutting down three average SM before getting face-blasted into oblivion.

 

The SM weren't of average skill? Neither was the Custodes who initiated with lethal force.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Vendatha was an elite? What does that even mean? The only reference in-text is that he fought by the emperor's side. He wasn't a hetaeron, he wasn't a shield captain, he wasn't a tribune, and he wasn't any other rank that would be harder to measure it by. He was a custodian guard; even if he was a veteran, the equivalent to elite unit isn't "chapter master" or "captain" or "consul", it's elite unit...like say Gal Vorbak.

 

And by "initiated" you mean he talks at them for a while, declares they're under arrest, threatens to turn it into an execution, tries to call reinforcements, word bearers ready up, there's a bit more talking. So yea, he initiated after they were forewarned of it being an execution, and we're already prepared.

 

But no, Tribune Vendatha attacked completely without warning and died to the 2 space marines who were able to gather their senses and react after he failed to kill them.

[b1soul]

Rank doesn't necessarily equate to combat skill. Rank has more to do with organisational skill, leadership...y'know...being a good commander.

Within the book, Vendatha was sent to watch and possibly sanction a wayward Primarch. It's unlikely they wouldn't pick highly skilled Custodians for this role. Why would they go for average? That would be sloppy, and the Legion Custodes generally isn't sloppy with its decision-making (neither is Malcador or the Emperor).

Outside the book, ADB said on an old forum that Vendatha was an incredibly skilled Custodian and they're not all like him. 

 

EDIT: Here you go https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/40k-fluff/87218-custodes.html#post937082

Edited July 31, 2019 by b1soul

[The_son_of_Dorn]

In my mind a custode trying to take on a Primarch is like Captain America trying to Solo Thanos. Maybe with say a God weapon (quite literally) available or 9-10 of the guy's maybe doable.

 

In terms of Astartes vs Space marines though, i'd of said if it were a battle of averages 1v1 custodes would win probably 18/20 in the custodes favor (Dependent on rank, training experience on both sides)  To be in the God Emperors personal service I still firmly believe you would need to be above "normal" stock over that of a Space marine. However I believe Custodes recruit solely from Terra? which does leave them quite heavily depleted in terms of their recruitment pools. 

 

Back on topic though I Miss Argel Tal, i haven't read about his death yet but knowing it's 100% coming makes me sad :( 

[b1soul]

Custodes numbers are kept low because IIRC the Custodes process has a far lower success rate than the Astartes process and the process is extremely resource-expensive and lengthy.

[mc warhammer]

Vendatha was an elite? What does that even mean? 

 

from ADB in 2011:

 

Originally Posted by Dead.Blue.Clown View Post

True, but Vendatha was an incredibly skilled Custodian. They're not all like him.

 

Originally Posted by Dead.Blue.Clown https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/40k-fluff/87218-custodes-2.html

Where the Custodians are concerned, I just don't think it's automatically true that they're immediately more powerful or skilled than the Grey Knights. And the Custodians of 40K (rather than 30K) are almost definitely not. They have no armour, and don't even fight; compare that with the secret, psychic elite order of humanity's finest warriors.

 

that all appears to have been superceded by a newer take. sooo...maybe vendatha's displayed skill level is now just average?

 

but i still think tfh works with either version of custodes leetness

Edited July 31, 2019 by mc warhammer

[MegaVolt87]

Didn't he kill a chapter master, chaplain and captain within seconds of each other? These extremely experienced soldiers that could tell that the custode was getting highly upset, but couldn't react before getting slain? And lorgar could have been killed if he hadn't been read his rights? The impression I got, was that if vendatha had just gone for the kill instead of giving lorgar ever opportunity to stop, he would have just carved through them all.

 

Custodes have always been extremely skilled; Blood Games has haedo, some random custodian challenge dorn and seem very unconcerned about having to fight him.

 

I think in Nemesis Dorn had a duel with Valdor and pretty much gave him a whupping I believe. I think which primarch a custodes could crump to use the technical ork term, will depend on the primarch. I could easily see someone like Lorgar getting destroyed in melee, while I think a Custodes is going to be very apprehensive fighting someone like Russ for example. 

[mc warhammer]

hmmm idk about that. i think valdor would last longer against pre heresy lorgar, but still...he dead.