Bad and Good Deaths in the HH Series

[Fedor]

First Heretic was also back before the newer official lore that put custodes as being outright better than Astartes in most respects. At that point i think the idea was they had differing strengths-generally more refined individual warriors, but not as organised in collective warfare- rather having a genuine superiority in genecraft.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Jubal ultimately wasn't wraight's character though; he was French's as he was introduced in templar. Between Templar, the Path of Heaven, Warhawk, and Solar War hes had a pretty good opportunity to spend time with imo; the fact that people are coming out of it feeling like not enough was done with the character in terms of action during the siege I feel is the entire point of his death. Like, a fulfilling arc would have had him doing more in solar war, or even the entire siege series. But that's the point of it.

[carlisimo]

I realize it’s debatable, but I’m on the side that says Jubal didn’t get enough screentime in his new role. Not enough for me to think, “Surely they wouldn’t kill him off yet.” The Red Viper got a lot more building up than Jubal. I liked his final scene, though. Dead or alive, his plan would’ve gotten Abaddon if not for foul warpcraft =p.

 

Alpharius’s death bothers the most. I almost started an Alpha Legion army when I got into the FW and BL series, mostly because of their paint scheme, but I had the same problem as after reading the 3rd and 4th edition Necron codexes - with so little information about their true motivations, they made a good antagonist but I didn’t know enough to role play as them. With the Alpha Legion, that never changed. You got hints that one twin was loyalist and one traitor, but none as to why or to what end. Several years later when we think we might find out, all we learn is... that we’re not going to find out. What the hell was he even trying to do on Pluto?

 

There’s now a potentially very interesting story in Omegon taking Alpharius’s place. I don’t see how it fits into the Siege of Terra series, nor do I expect this potential to be realized any more than the legion’s past storytelling potential was.

 

Most memorable death… tears were shed when Yesugei sent his legion home. And it was almost concurrent with Torghun’s. Cario’s was strong, too. What a novel that was.

 

Circling back to the Jubal discussion, are the White Scars’ captain-level losses unusually high? I need to go count.

[mc warhammer]

There’s now a potentially very interesting story in Omegon taking Alpharius’s place. I don’t see how it fits into the Siege of Terra series, nor do I expect this potential to be realized any more than the legion’s past storytelling potential was.

 

at this stage, it's that alpha who may or may not have been loyalist may have been at odds with omega who may or may not have been loyalist, but now that alpha is definitively dead, omega may or may not have to pivot his plans to incorporate what alpha may or may not have been doing.

 

 

Circling back to the Jubal discussion, are the White Scars’ captain-level losses unusually high? I need to go count.

 

maybe not, but it feels that way at times. it makes sense in-universe, they were one of the legions in the front lines of the heresy and were fighting against immense odds- a situation that is going to deplete them more than the imperial fists.

 

i wonder if a new master of the hunt was/will be appointed?

[b1soul]

Qin Xa, Yesugei, Jemulan, Hasik, Jubal, Torghun (and probably Hibou) are all dead

[Angel_of_Blood]

It is heavily implied in Nemesis that it wasn't simply that Horus wanted a double, but that Horus used the opportunity to get rid of a potentially difficult player in his own Legion, who was trying to barter for more power and kept challenging him in certain ways, and he was damn full of himself. It was more of a targeted purge by way of loyalist assassins than a job offer filled by just some rando.

 

I've not read it in a very long time. But is that heavily implied? I recall Sedirae and company capturing the assassin at the start, but don't recall any mentions of him being difficult. Again, longtime since I've read it.

 

 

 

Only gripe i have is that i hated how the custodies were killed with no effort in The First Heretic. Not that they should've lived, but they should've gone down with some small victories . IMO Argel Tal, the heresy's most boring protagonist (in my opinion ) should've died there and then to them, and amidst all the traitor no set back triumphs that continues onto betrayer, it woud'lve actually been satisfying for me. 

 

If I may, Vendatha killed 3 Word Bearers before his death; 2 died before they could even react and a third didn't have time to aim. He then survived what would have killed a baseline marine outright before being impaled. During their final encounter, each Custodian died because they were outnumbered, but each still dispatched a Gal Vorbak (far above a baseline marine in ability) with no effort before being swarmed to death. The Word Bearer's also lost Xaphen, which was not at all minor within the story.

 

I agree with your other points, but the idea that the Custodes went like wimps, or that the traitors don't lose anyone in those works is incorrect and a peeve of mine.

 

 

Aquillon, Sythran and Nirallus kill 6 of the Gal Vorbak in total actually. So outnumbered almost 4 to 1 by Gal Vorbak no less, and they still killed over half of them.

[bluntblade]

And Sythran burst one's chest open with a thrown spear.

[b1soul]

I don't recall it was 4 to 1. It was something like 8 Gal Vorbak attacking 5 Custodes IIRC

[Rob P]

 

It is heavily implied in Nemesis that it wasn't simply that Horus wanted a double, but that Horus used the opportunity to get rid of a potentially difficult player in his own Legion, who was trying to barter for more power and kept challenging him in certain ways, and he was damn full of himself. It was more of a targeted purge by way of loyalist assassins than a job offer filled by just some rando.

 

I've not read it in a very long time. But is that heavily implied? I recall Sedirae and company capturing the assassin at the start, but don't recall any mentions of him being difficult. Again, longtime since I've read it.

 

Does this come from the first 20-30 pages of Nemesis during a conversation between Korda, Erebus and Sedirae.

 

There appears to be a frustration by Sedirae regarding the slow plod to Terra.

 

The tension as I see it, is not between Horus and his captain, but rather between Erebus and Sedirae. One wants to go slow letting chaos worm in deeper and the other ones to get to Terra and take the head.

 

That being said, i do remember the 'Horus sent him down to off him' being top talk back when the book came out.

 

Weirdly, I don't even remember Sedirae from the opening trilogy (although lexicanum tells me he was in them).

[Angel_of_Blood]

I don't recall it was 4 to 1. It was something like 8 Gal Vorbak attacking 5 Custodes IIRC

11 Gal Vorbak are at the start of the fight. By the time it’s just Sythran is left there’s only 6 Gal Vorbak left and Sythran then (awesomely) slays Xaphen. So 11 vs 3, just shy of 4-1.

[bluntblade]

It was 3 Custodians after they took on a Conqueror robot at close range and Kalhin died. Thereafter each Custodian gets at least a kill each, though the exact events are a bit fuzzy in Argel Tal's recollection - including one possessed marine for whom simple decapitation isn't enough. Then Nirallus gets gang-chopped by two Gal Vorbak, one of them is brought down by Aquillon, who then has his head bitten off by Argel Tal (and if that isn't a good 40K death, I don't know what it). That leaves Sythran to his last stand.

[b1soul]

So they each take two before falling...starting at 11 vs. 3

 

It's been forever, completely forgot the numbers

[bluntblade]

We are also talking the OG Possessed.

[Angel_of_Blood]

So they each take two before falling...starting at 11 vs. 3

 

It's been forever, completely forgot the numbers

I’m only able to remember it so well as there was a discussion on the very numbers on Reddit the other day.

[b1soul]

Well, I should say they each on average take two before falling. I just re-read the scene and only Malnor and Torgal's deaths are described. Argel Tal has a bad memory of the event.

[Wulfburk]

The death of that lone custode on davin (iirc) i thought was well done. But i stand by that for me these custodians that are played like a fiddle throughout the novel would've had a better exit if they killed argel tal or had some flight of the eisenstein esque scenario going on. They may kill some gal vorbak but they are dead exactly as planned minutes onto it and the word bearers dont suffer even a negligible set back because of that.

[b1soul]

Custodes back in 2010/2011 weren't the super-men they are now post-Inferno.

[bluntblade]

Not gonna lie, I still prefer that version.

[b1soul]

Under FW rules, I believe a random Custodes Shield-Captain is about equivalent to Sigismund.

 

So even after the release of Inferno, I think it's possible for a very good SM to beat an average Custodes. Shield-Captains, Tribunes, and those Custodes who are the equivalent of SM champions will generally mulch any SM who isn't highly exceptional.

[SkimaskMohawk]

On the topic of the scars command level losses being high, so are the night lords.

 

5 members of the original kyroptera, 2 of sevatars second version (one of which is ophion), shang, skraivok, and while not deaths (but still lost to the legion for the rest of the heresy) both sevatar and curve.

 

Pretty much all their high command was dead or missing, and they took part in istvaan and thramas.

[b1soul]

How did Shang bite the dust?

[Morovir]

Spoilers for The Painted Count:

 

Shang commands the Nightfall after the events of Prince of Crows. After Skraivok arrives via the Pharos device, he and Shang feud over control of their portion of the Legion and their overall direction, with Skraivok wanting to join Horus in his push for Terra and Shang, believing that Curze is dead, wishes instead to hunt down the Lion and seek vengeance. As Skraivok appears to be getting more support amongst the lower ranking officers, Shang conspires with his own supporters to imprison Skraivok in the prison made for Vulkan in the depths of the Nightfall. However, finally succumbing to the temptation of his daemon-blade, Skraivok escapes and breaks into the meeting where, in the absence of Skraivok, Shang is about to be confirmed as the acting Legion Commander. Challenging Shang in front of the other officers, Skraivok dodges his charge and cuts off the top of his head with the daemon-blade with a speed considered unnatural by the other Night Lords, who then swear their loyalty to him, and he orders them to set course for Terra.

[b1soul]

Daemonblade Skraivok for the win.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Custodes back in 2010/2011 weren't the super-men they are now post-Inferno.

They kinda were though. It was always a bit weird to me that works like First Heretic try to claim that they're not that much better than Astartes (especially the whole 'they fight as Individuals' thing that's set up as a weakness but never has any payoff iirc) and then shows them as definitively better, from Vendatha dropping a couple of veteran WBs before they can raise their guns (though he died a bit easily iirc) to the surviving Custodes being the only things in the book, other than Primarchs, to overshadow the power of the original Gal Vorbak. Even the old Collected Visions HH book notes the Custodes are stronger than the Marines. Inferno didnt make them super-super-men (as Marines are already super-men), they always were.

[b1soul]

Vendatha kills three Astartes (who are surprised by his initial assault) before getting headshotted by a fourth Astartes...that's hardly on par with Inferno. Replace Vendatha with any outraged Legion champion in that scene, and you'd likely get a similar result.