mc warhammer Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 Ah, so it's a classic social media-not actually in the story thing. Like Dumbledore being gay, his comment isn't actually supported by any piece of narrative. yep, true (or maybe it is supported in TFH but nobody has quoted the relevant bit of text). we can all feel free to take adb's word or not. the assumption that the custodes attached to watch a primarch would be elite wouldn't be unreasonable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357138-bad-and-good-deaths-in-the-hh-series/page/5/#findComment-5355976 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 1, 2019 Author Share Posted August 1, 2019 "Ah, so it's a classic social media-not actually in the story thing. Like Dumbledore being gay, his comment isn't actually supported by any piece of narrative." It's not just ADB's word. It's also the fact that it would be bizarre to select average Custodes to execute a high-priorty job like watching over a wayward Primarch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357138-bad-and-good-deaths-in-the-hh-series/page/5/#findComment-5355990 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 1, 2019 Author Share Posted August 1, 2019 I would also add that the WB Chapter Master slain by Ven at melee range was armed with a bolter IIRC. I'm not sure how, how in that situation, he would differ from a tactical marine. So yeah, I don't think First Heretic strongly supports Inferno or MoM power levels. I can only say that if we ignore the authour's wore at the time, it could be interpreted to not contradict Inferno/MoM. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357138-bad-and-good-deaths-in-the-hh-series/page/5/#findComment-5355992 Share on other sites More sharing options...
karden00 Posted August 2, 2019 Share Posted August 2, 2019 Given everything that has gone on in the lore, ie, Maximus Thane, the death of Argel Tal, Sharrowkyn killing Lucius...( I kid, I kid....) Maybe we can start to think of ‘power levels’ as something the author thought fit for the context of the story they were writing, rather than just always kneejerk whenever we hear about an interpretation we don’t love. And there’s plenty of stuff I don’t love, but I dunno, maybe as collective readers we can try just a little harder to come along for the ride the author wants to take us on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357138-bad-and-good-deaths-in-the-hh-series/page/5/#findComment-5356477 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 2, 2019 Author Share Posted August 2, 2019 I don't think anyone here is kneejerking about power levels. It's been a discussion on whether First Heretic clearly presents the same power levels as Inferno. No one is complaining about Custodes being too powerful or too weak. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357138-bad-and-good-deaths-in-the-hh-series/page/5/#findComment-5356489 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 Ah, so it's a classic social media-not actually in the story thing. Like Dumbledore being gay, his comment isn't actually supported by any piece of narrative. All he needed to do was have aquillon comment on how fast vendatha beat agree tal/himself in training. Maybe he tried to show their deaths to possessed as a balance to the cadia scene, but argel tal in betrayer really undermines that possibility. B1soul, in 40k rank is more often than not a direct correlation to combat skill. The most celebrated legion fighters being almost all first captains and all of them being senior commanders is a bit telling. Megavolt there's no valdor vs dorn duel in nemesis. There's a talk in the training area though. There wasn't? Could of sworn Dorn had given Valdor a whooping at some point post Nemesis. Its really hard to gauge how good Lorgar is in a duel, Corax nearly killed him at dropsite massacre, did RG duel Lorgar in Calth arc? I think they did and were kinda even, even with Lorgar a bit more chaos enhanced, some sorcery usage? Post heresy, round 2 with Corax, Lorgar seemed worse than dropsite duel with Corax, and he was a Demon Primarch on his home turf.... My head cannon is RG and Dorn being pretty close in melee power, with Dorn maybe having a bit more of an edge. Lorgar vs Valdor- I expect Valdor to win that one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357138-bad-and-good-deaths-in-the-hh-series/page/5/#findComment-5360437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 7, 2019 Author Share Posted August 7, 2019 There has been no duel or sparring session between Valdor and a Primarch as far as I know. People have made claims that Valdor has beaten or gone toe to toe with Horus, Russ, or Dorn, but are never able to cite a source. Valdor to me is probably around Alpharius' level. He gets pasted by most of the other Primarchs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357138-bad-and-good-deaths-in-the-hh-series/page/5/#findComment-5360441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 alpharius gets pasted by the other primarchs? on what basis? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357138-bad-and-good-deaths-in-the-hh-series/page/5/#findComment-5360470 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 alpharius gets pasted by the other primarchs? on what basis? He was killed by Dorn wasn't he ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357138-bad-and-good-deaths-in-the-hh-series/page/5/#findComment-5360478 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 yeah, i still don’t see it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357138-bad-and-good-deaths-in-the-hh-series/page/5/#findComment-5360480 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 7, 2019 Author Share Posted August 7, 2019 Really don't like Alph or Val's chances in personal combat against Angron, Sanguinius, Lion, Curze, Fulgrim, Khan, Russ, Magnus, could probably go on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357138-bad-and-good-deaths-in-the-hh-series/page/5/#findComment-5360484 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 i think it was adb that said any primarch could take another, depending on the day. that's the camp i'm in. so, who wins in the primarch v primarch fight? an author Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357138-bad-and-good-deaths-in-the-hh-series/page/5/#findComment-5360490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fedor Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 From what i've noticed Alpharius and Omegon seem to somehow have settled into a majority consensus headcanon in 40k online areas as not being able to fight at all compared to the others, despite Lorgar really being the only one that was noted in actual lore as having not being interested or as talented in martial or offensive aspects(at one stage of his character anyway) . Probably not helped by Forgeworld rules heavily emphasising the subterfuge/infiltrator aspect in their rules, but that's tabletop where it makes sense to exaggerate certain unique traits for greater variety. It never made much sense to me though that the Black Ops/Spec Ops commando warlords should necessarily be weak in combat though. I guess with it now being canon they are smaller than the rest, they'll be giving up a weightclass or two to a lot and at a disadvantage there. The fight with Dorn certainly seemed to indicate an equal/near equal who may have won on another day. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357138-bad-and-good-deaths-in-the-hh-series/page/5/#findComment-5361033 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 I think it had something to do with legion saying the primarchs weren't as large as normal ones, and a scene in deliverance lost where alpharius is a little scared of horus Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357138-bad-and-good-deaths-in-the-hh-series/page/5/#findComment-5361147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beren Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 Regarding the Alpharius/Dorn duel... From Archamus' (if I recall the name correctly) point of view,he was absolutely certain that Alpharius' strike would have killed Dorn without intervention. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357138-bad-and-good-deaths-in-the-hh-series/page/5/#findComment-5361149 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 8, 2019 Author Share Posted August 8, 2019 That was from the perspective of Archamus' overly worried mind, so it's left up in the air. Just a moment before, another blow that also seemed to Archamus to be imminent death was blocked by Dorn. The idea that Alpharius is weaker than the other Primarchs stems from the idea that Alpharius and Omegon represent a single soul distributed into two vessels. So the Alpha Legion have one Primarch inhabiting two bodies. The AL doesn't have two full Primarchs. Together, Alpharius and Omegon would have the potency of a Lion or a Russ or a Khan or what have you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357138-bad-and-good-deaths-in-the-hh-series/page/5/#findComment-5361479 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 That was from the perspective of Archamus' overly worried mind, so it's left up in the air. Just a moment before, another blow that also seemed to Archamus to be imminent death was blocked by Dorn. The idea that Alpharius is weaker than the other Primarchs stems from the idea that Alpharius and Omegon represent a single soul distributed into two vessels. So the Alpha Legion have one Primarch inhabiting two bodies. The AL doesn't have two full Primarchs. Together, Alpharius and Omegon would have the potency of a Lion or a Russ or a Khan or what have you. sure, i get the logic but there's nothing i remember in the text to that states that. i'd imagine that dorn v alpharius would not have been as close a shave as it was if alpha was half powered in comparison. PoD even goes as far to mention in the flashback that alpharius' movements are a match for dorn's. BL authors tend to go to lengths to mention power discrepancies in a match up, and when someone is outclassed...it's usually obvious not ambiguous. From what i've noticed Alpharius and Omegon seem to somehow have settled into a majority consensus headcanon in 40k online areas as not being able to fight at all compared to the others, despite Lorgar really being the only one that was noted in actual lore as having not being interested or as talented in martial or offensive aspects(at one stage of his character anyway) . Probably not helped by Forgeworld rules heavily emphasising the subterfuge/infiltrator aspect in their rules, but that's tabletop where it makes sense to exaggerate certain unique traits for greater variety. It never made much sense to me though that the Black Ops/Spec Ops commando warlords should necessarily be weak in combat though. I guess with it now being canon they are smaller than the rest, they'll be giving up a weightclass or two to a lot and at a disadvantage there. The fight with Dorn certainly seemed to indicate an equal/near equal who may have won on another day. yeah, it seems to be a lot of inference and head canon, and it's not entirely irrational, just unsupported Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357138-bad-and-good-deaths-in-the-hh-series/page/5/#findComment-5361498 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 8, 2019 Author Share Posted August 8, 2019 I'm pretty sure the one soul in two bodies is canon. Struggle to recall the exact quote or the name of the BL work. Would have to dig. I highly doubt the AL have the equivalent of two full Primarchs at their disposal, based on the one soul idea. I think the idea was further fueled by FW's Alparius rules, which are pretty weak in direct combat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357138-bad-and-good-deaths-in-the-hh-series/page/5/#findComment-5361515 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 I'm pretty sure the one soul in two bodies is canon. Struggle to recall the exact quote or the name of the BL work. Would have to dig. I highly doubt the AL have the equivalent of two full Primarchs at their disposal, based on the one soul idea. I think the idea was further fueled by FW's Alparius rules, which are pretty weak in direct combat. the two bodies one soul thing is canon; how that plays out has not been determined, at least in-universe Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357138-bad-and-good-deaths-in-the-hh-series/page/5/#findComment-5361517 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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