Codex: Space Marines 2.0 speculation & discussion

[Brother Christopher]

 

Doctrine rules will boost my Classic Marines greatly. Even if not allowed for vehicles.

 

I'm really interested in how they are going to affect classic Marines too. I like the new stuff, but there's just something really nice about older models getting new rules and a new lease of life.

 

 

So far, so good! The new rules appear to be fluffy. Even though they add complexity (or maybe even bloat to the ruleset), the boost is much appreciated. As someone who consciously decides to handicap himself by not using Primaris, I’m bothered, however, how much better Primaris will be. Of course, a lot depends on their price in points, but to be frank I’d love to pay 3-4 points more for each of my Crusader/Tactical Marine to have an extra wound, an extra attack and a better weapon with a longer range, on top of that.

[Marshal Rohr]

I am torn on the Look of the Primaris Units. On the one side I really like the sleak modern Design, especially the Infantry like Intercessors, Infiltrators and Hellblasters. On the others side I am starting to miss the Gothic Themes that drew me to Astartes. Struggling to bring those diverting Thoughts in my brain together.

Shave the rails off. Works wonders.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Oh I agree they shouldnt be capped and that it was probably a shadowspear thing. That being said whats the obliterator cap and was it improved from shadowspear?

[Claws and Effect]

Eliminators might be capped at 3, but it doesn't make that much sense for them to be.

 

Units are either 5-10 or 3-6 with Victrix Guard and Lieutenants being maxed at 2.

It does, actually.

 

Consider the Las-fusil now that we've seen it's rules.

 

S8 -3AP flat 3 damage.

 

If the Sgt sacrifices his own shooting the entire unit they'll be hitting on 2s and wounding on no worse than 3s. Add in the Doctrine that increases AP of heavy weapons and you now have a unit that is almost certainly going to hit with all or most of it's shots and will wound with 2/3rds of them. At -4 AP from the Doctrine most vehicles won't even get a save against it either.

 

More than 3 of those guys would be overpowered.

[Dracos]

I think its interesting how a few of us are worrying about how this seems to power creep Marines into top tier at tournaments. There is much to be thankful for here but at best I see all the sweetness we have been blessed with this week still having a point cost and at the most putting us in the same game as the Ork, Eldar, Tau and Gene Stealer Cults. 

 

History has set a heavy precedent for the Big Four Marines Hereticus and Deathwatch power armor armies to take everything we will be given and pour gravy over it within the next year. I hope I'm wrong. I hope that finally a DIY army can play on the level playing field as a Blood Angel or Death Guard player.

 

The color or your models shouldn't make them any less competitive, and <Counts As> has always seemed inferior game design. So I wouldn't worry too much about the fear of us becoming OP as I would becoming illrelevant again within a year.

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

I'm really torn as to which "vanilla" army I want to do. I've always loved Salamanders, but their chapter tactic is pretty pointless on primaris (I'm one of the in the middle, grey area kinda people in that I like primaris and first born at the same time and want a fairly even mix of both in my army). i like both IF and CF equally from a fluff and colour scheme point of view and tactically think both are pretty good mid to upper tier armies. And finally there's the attraction of creating my own chapter, most likely a Salamanders successor but with different CT than their progenitors

 

I'm liking everything I'm seeing about this release, and want to do a small Phobos force along side whatever army I do choose. The Impulsor looks cool, but I'd definitely be using the shield dome or comms array as if I want anti air I'll take a dedicated anti air tank or a stromhawk.

 

Finally, instead of tactical doctrines I hope we get some bespoke rules for DA,DA and SW. I'm not a rules writer so I've no idea, but for example maybe hunter protocols and acquisition protocols tuat benefit RW and DW specifically in for DA

[CCE1981]

I don’t get why a squad of 6 Eliminators at 144 pts eliminating a character a turn is overpowered. At 72 pts, which I everyone seems to assume a larger squad would be I would agree. Keep in mind we aren’t reading the actual language of the rule.

[Ishagu]

I'm really torn as to which "vanilla" army I want to do. I've always loved Salamanders, but their chapter tactic is pretty pointless on primaris (I'm one of the in the middle, grey area kinda people in that I like primaris and first born at the same time and want a fairly even mix of both in my army). i like both IF and CF equally from a fluff and colour scheme point of view and tactically think both are pretty good mid to upper tier armies. And finally there's the attraction of creating my own chapter, most likely a Salamanders successor but with different CT than their progenitors

 

I'm liking everything I'm seeing about this release, and want to do a small Phobos force along side whatever army I do choose. The Impulsor looks cool, but I'd definitely be using the shield dome or comms array as if I want anti air I'll take a dedicated anti air tank or a stromhawk.

 

Finally, instead of tactical doctrines I hope we get some bespoke rules for DA,DA and SW. I'm not a rules writer so I've no idea, but for example maybe hunter protocols and acquisition protocols tuat benefit RW and DW specifically in for DA

Salamanders Chapter tactic is incredible on Primaris.

[Ishagu]

People are worried about things being potentially overpowered, I wouldn't.

 

The army will still be elite, and will probably become more CP hungry.

[CCE1981]

Right now without the book I am looking at 3” range, and immunity to -1 AP. Of course with my Chapter fluff I might just go with the Ravenguard cover and immune to AP-1

[Ishagu]

Right now without the book I am looking at 3” range, and immunity to -1 AP. Of course with my Chapter fluff I might just go with the Ravenguard cover and immune to AP-1

It's a tough call! I think the cover bonus is better however it doesn't work up close. Depends on how you intend to play.

[CCE1981]

 

Right now without the book I am looking at 3” range, and immunity to -1 AP. Of course with my Chapter fluff I might just go with the Ravenguard cover and immune to AP-1

It's a tough call! I think the cover bonus is better however it doesn't work up close. Depends on how you intend to play.

The other thing is that at 12” your probably in cover anyways.

 

That3” range on everything just makes those short range weapons oh so much better.

[Klod]

Max. of 3 models in an Eliminator unit makes sense because of sergeant's ability to buff them.

[Ishagu]

Max. of 3 models in an Eliminator unit makes sense because of sergeant's ability to buff them.

Nah, I'd take 3 shots hitting on 3s over 2 hitting on 2s every time, especially with access to auras.

 

The sgt option makes me think the squad can be run as a six, not the other way around.

[FlamingDeth]

Taking a look at the rumors, 75 points for a naked impulsor isn't bad, as long as you can take it naked. I was afraid it was going to be over a hundred base with all the stuff they're adding to it, which would be terrible for a basic transport.

[Ishagu]

Taking a look at the rumors, 75 points for a naked impulsor isn't bad, as long as you can take it naked. I was afraid it was going to be over a hundred base with all the stuff they're adding to it, which would be terrible for a basic transport.

It was two storm bolters and an Ironhail Stubber, that's 10 points extra right off the bat.

 

I assume it will hit over 100 for the 4++

[Klod]

 

Max. of 3 models in an Eliminator unit makes sense because of sergeant's ability to buff them.

Nah, I'd take 3 shots hitting on 3s over 2 hitting on 2s every time, especially with access to auras.

 

The sgt option makes me think the squad can be run as a six, not the other way around.

 

He gives +1 to hit and +1 to wound.

 

Let's compare.

Assuming we shoot a toughness 7 and 3+ save vehicle:

3 shots * hitting on 3s (2/3) * wounding on 3s (2/3) * save on 6 (5/6) * damage 3 = 3.33

and

2 shots * hitting on 2s (5/6) * wounding on 2s (5/6) * save on 6 (5/6) * damage 3 = 3.47

 

Looks like the difference is minimal, but with 3 shots you can spike 9 damage, while with 2 shots only 6.

 

What if the target has a -1 to hit:

3 shots * hitting on 4s (1/2) * wounding on 3s (2/3) * save on 6 (5/6) * damage 3 = 2.5

and

2 shots * hitting on 3s (2/3) * wounding on 2s (5/6) * save on 6 (5/6) * damage 3 = 2.7

 

Still not worth it. I agree with you, 3 is better because of the damage potential when getting lucky.

[Lemondish]

 

 

 

Max. of 3 models in an Eliminator unit makes sense because of sergeant's ability to buff them.

Nah, I'd take 3 shots hitting on 3s over 2 hitting on 2s every time, especially with access to auras.

 

The sgt option makes me think the squad can be run as a six, not the other way around.

He gives +1 to hit and +1 to wound.

 

Let's compare.

Assuming we shoot a toughness 7 and 3+ save vehicle:

3 shots * hitting on 3s (2/3) * wounding on 3s (2/3) * save on 6 (5/6) * damage 3 = 3.33

and

2 shots * hitting on 2s (5/6) * wounding on 2s (5/6) * save on 6 (5/6) * damage 3 = 3.47

 

Looks like the difference is minimal, but with 3 shots you can spike 9 damage, while with 2 shots only 6.

 

What if the target has a -1 to hit:

3 shots * hitting on 4s (1/2) * wounding on 3s (2/3) * save on 6 (5/6) * damage 3 = 2.5

and

2 shots * hitting on 3s (2/3) * wounding on 2s (5/6) * save on 6 (5/6) * damage 3 = 2.7

 

Still not worth it. I agree with you, 3 is better because of the damage potential when getting lucky.

I'll definitely take the sarge with the carbine to always hit and wound with the +1, and deploy a bit more aggressively.

[Marshal Rohr]

The lack of 10man transport capacity makes it a non-starter. Maybe a future expansion will give a version without the guns that carries ten.

[Charlo]

The lack of 10man transport capacity makes it a non-starter. Maybe a future expansion will give a version without the guns that carries ten.

Why? Primaris have two wounds, a boat load of quality attacks at range and in combat thanks to doctrines and you an even bring a buff character with them.

[CaptainMarsh]

Right now without the book I am looking at 3” range, and immunity to -1 AP. Of course with my Chapter fluff I might just go with the Ravenguard cover and immune to AP-1

We don't know if both halves of a parent CT will be available as ST. I wouldn't doubt that we'll see about half of a CT in, and from that, we have seen the Salamander re-roll. I doubt we'll see the immunity to AP-1 as well.

 

We have seen 5 ST that are not attached to a CT. That means there are 14 more. If every part of a CT was a possible ST, then you'd see 16-17 choices (The Iron Hands could easily be three choices!).

 

Meaning either one thinks that we have seen every non-connected ST already, or we have not. And if we have not, that means there are parts pf parent CTs that will remain unique to them.

 

If I had to guess, 6-8 CTs will have part of it as a choice as a ST, so that there is 6-8 choices. Then  you have the 5 we have been shown (One that is just pick a CT and it counts as both choices, then the 4 others). That is 11-13 choices. That leaves 6-8 more that we have likely not seen.

 

I could be wrong, of course, but I don't see ST as an open bar on picking the best parts of all available CTs.

 

(I am saying 6-8 because based on wording I'm not sure of CF and BT will have part of their CTs broken up and available as options for a ST).

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

 

Max. of 3 models in an Eliminator unit makes sense because of sergeant's ability to buff them.

Nah, I'd take 3 shots hitting on 3s over 2 hitting on 2s every time, especially with access to auras.

 

The sgt option makes me think the squad can be run as a six, not the other way around.

He gives +1 to hit and +1 to wound.

 

Let's compare.

Assuming we shoot a toughness 7 and 3+ save vehicle:

3 shots * hitting on 3s (2/3) * wounding on 3s (2/3) * save on 6 (5/6) * damage 3 = 3.33

and

2 shots * hitting on 2s (5/6) * wounding on 2s (5/6) * save on 6 (5/6) * damage 3 = 3.47

 

Looks like the difference is minimal, but with 3 shots you can spike 9 damage, while with 2 shots only 6.

 

What if the target has a -1 to hit:

3 shots * hitting on 4s (1/2) * wounding on 3s (2/3) * save on 6 (5/6) * damage 3 = 2.5

and

2 shots * hitting on 3s (2/3) * wounding on 2s (5/6) * save on 6 (5/6) * damage 3 = 2.7

 

Still not worth it. I agree with you, 3 is better because of the damage potential when getting lucky.

I'll definitely take the sarge with the carbine to always hit and wound with the +1, and deploy a bit more aggressively.

 

 

Might not be able to do carbine and buff. They talk about "one of two roles" and separate the buff and carbine with a meanwhile.

[jaxom]

 

Why do Marines have 10 different special rules to keep track of per freaking unit?

Yeah, this is...a bit much. Between Doctrines, Chapter Tactics, Strategems and the bevy of special rules layered on individual units, this Codex looks like it’ll be a nightmare of bookkeeping, not to mention the distinct odor of Swiss wafting off of all this.

 

 

I think army wide special rules were the way to go without making sweeping changes to pre-existing units. The interesting thing, in my opinion, is how the doctrines promote having an army that has a presence in three different areas of the game. It fits with the marines being a good starter army to learn how to play and that one could lean more into one area than another depending on list design. That it follows the old fluff about how marines progress in training is just icing on the cake to me.

 

I think SW/BA/DA will get a new book with substantial improvements over the previous ones. This update has finally convinced me that GW understand how much marines lagged behind whereas before I didn’t think they did. These new rules are great (if a lot to keep track of) and I’m sure something similar will be arriving for the other marine armies.

 

Maybe even Grey Knights

 

  I think the Space Wolves sagas will get over-hauled to be army-wide: one saga per HQ and you start with one and swap to another either as the game progresses or when trigger occurs (stack when triggered?). I'm not as sure for the Dark Angels and Blood Angels - even with all the new units they've received over the years I have trouble seeing them as that Codex-divergent when it comes to basic strategies and tactics.

 

Grey Knights are a simple fix in my opinion. Make their battle line more like the AoS Stormcast "we're all magical but not casters" chamber. The smite spam loss gives power to put elsewhere. Brotherhood of Psykers: at the begining of the turn choose an option for the unit, bonus for hitting (precognition), bonus for saves (telekine shield), bonus against mortal wounds (aegis), whatever. Brother-Captains aura lets units share the effect of a psychic power buff, getting around the rule of one, but they don't know smite, save that for actual Librarians - heck, make two trees, one completely buffs for all characters and the other being the flashy wreck-someone's-face-with-warp-powers for Librarians.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I mean, it would honestly be impossible for it to be less cp hungry outside of vigilus stuff. There's just not a lot to spend on a turn by turn basis.

 

And no one thinks that a 6 sniper rifle squad of eliminators would be op, but that a 6 man of fusils might be. you can reliably kill or severely cripple a standard t7 3+ vehicle without outside support and 5.

[Happycamper]

 

Max. of 3 models in an Eliminator unit makes sense because of sergeant's ability to buff them.

Nah, I'd take 3 shots hitting on 3s over 2 hitting on 2s every time, especially with access to auras.

 

The sgt option makes me think the squad can be run as a six, not the other way around.

Though it also boosts wound roll