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Codex: Space Marines 2.0 speculation & discussion

Triszin

By Triszin
in + ADEPTUS ASTARTES +

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Lemondish Veteran

Lemondish

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Yes that was a sweet read! So if the Tactical Doctrine is active we can fall back and not receive the minus to hit for heavy weapons so the Chapter Tactic gets better.

 

And our Dreads are an assault force again alongside their firepower.

Nope - Scions of Guilliman only applies for normal moves, not falling back or advancing.

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quasistellar Battle-Brother

quasistellar

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@helterskelter

Hey, it's about time Astartes had their day in the sun as one of, if not the best factions.

 

We've all grown to accept that Eldar dominate the tabletop. Time for a shake up. I'm sure that the Eldar codex 6 months from now will be just as crazy lol

Instead of being happy with power creep and assuming more will come, leaving low tier armies even further behind, I think we should all be able to agree that reining in the creep is better for the game in the long run, no?

 

People are always excited when their army is broken and boring to play against, but in 6 months when marines are crap again and the people in this thread are moaning about it, I’ll be sure to refer you all back to this post.

 

 

I mean, space marines ARE the lower tier armies.  Just about the lowest tier.

 

Plus we don't really know all the points costs yet so everyone should save their freakouts for when we know for sure.

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Panzer Veteran

Panzer

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Yeah UM Aggressors with on average 54 S4 AP-1 shots in a 3 man unit and Veteran Intercessors with 40 AP-2 shots at 30" in a 10 man unit will be sick.

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Captain Idaho Venerable Brother

Captain Idaho

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I think everyone is making far too much of bolter grade weapons and their AP bonus. The rules are very nice to fix a glaring weakness of Marines, but don't forget that Sternguard are NOT breaking the meta with AP-2 Bolters, even using their +1 to wound Strategum.

 

;)

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ERJAK Battle-Brother

ERJAK

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Posted (edited)

 

 

@helterskelter

Hey, it's about time Astartes had their day in the sun as one of, if not the best factions.

 

We've all grown to accept that Eldar dominate the tabletop. Time for a shake up. I'm sure that the Eldar codex 6 months from now will be just as crazy lol

Instead of being happy with power creep and assuming more will come, leaving low tier armies even further behind, I think we should all be able to agree that reining in the creep is better for the game in the long run, no?

 

People are always excited when their army is broken and boring to play against, but in 6 months when marines are crap again and the people in this thread are moaning about it, I’ll be sure to refer you all back to this post.

Power creep is great as long as it's gradual. This feels like a leap because the last codex was so weak.

It might only be marginally better than the other top books or on a par

This is wrong. Powercreep is always a net bad. Your army creeping up doesn't outweigh MANY armies being crept. It's also unsustainable and necessesitates 'reboots' of the system over time. It's allowed because it's something that's seen as necessary to drive sales.

 

Power SHUFFLING is good. Changing around what is and is not powerful while keeping the overall powercurve in relatively the same place is vastly preferable to creep. It's just much more difficult.

 

Sidebar: It's not powercreep unless it moves the overall powercurve. Taking marines from non-viable to viable would be balancing. If marines become the best army in the game or at least warp the meta around them THAT would be powercreep.

Edited by ERJAK
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Captain Idaho Venerable Brother

Captain Idaho

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Of course; fall back precludes the benefit of Tactical Expertise.

 

Not that I'm very bothered right now - it boosts our Dreads, Terminators and even gives us some nasty combinations.

 

Imagine a Tactical squad jumping out of a transport and hitting an enemy with AP-1 Bolters, a Heavy Bolter that doesn't suffer a -1 to hit (after laying down fire 1st turn that was AP-2!) and 2 combi flamers/Flamers that are AP-1 as well!

 

Now think about Sternguard which are AP-3 and can have 2 Multi-meltas that hit on 3s on the move (from a transport?)

 

Or a 5 man Devastator team that puts 4 Multi-melta shots on something without minuses?

 

Land Speeders might get used even.

 

The possibilities are getting exciting.

 

***

 

Guilliman man need to go up to stop every Ultras list being a gun line. 475pts could work.

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Ishagu

Ishagu

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It's silly to say he doesn't need adjustment. Marine gunlines will be sickening to play with Guilliman and skew the meta.

The rules shown have convinced me of only one thing. Not to ever play a gunline. The army encourages movement.

 

If you're finding that gunlines are the preferred method of play I suggest you switch to Maelstrom missions (modified or otherwise) from the most recent Chapter Approved, and play with more terrain. You will quickly find the gunline lists losing the vast majority of matches.

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Captain Idaho Venerable Brother

Captain Idaho

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It's silly to say he doesn't need adjustment. Marine gunlines will be sickening to play with Guilliman and skew the meta.

The rules shown have convinced me of only one thing. Not to ever play a gunline. The army encourages movement.

If you're finding that gunlines are the preferred method of play I suggest you switch to Maelstrom missions (modified or otherwise) from the most recent Chapter Approved, and play with more terrain. You will quickly find the gunline lists losing the vast majority of matches.

Why would you move when you don't have to?

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Guiltysparc Venerable Brother

Guiltysparc

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Wait, so Scions of Guilliman lets you move without counting as moving as long as Tactical Doctrine is active.

 

Tactical Doctrine looks like it applies to vehicles too, as does Scions of Guiliman.

 

Executioners can doubletap if they don't move or move less than half.

 

So does that mean Ultramarine Executioners can full move and doubletap when under Tactical Doctrine?

Yes. And Aggressors. And Intercessors.

 

All while rerolling all failed hits and wounds.

Oh goodness, my beloved aggressors might see some play now! That double tapping flamer after advancing, huzzah!

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Ishagu

Ishagu

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Because when I actually play the game properly with adequite terrain and missions that aren't simple kill points I'll need to find avenues of fire, capture objectives and control the board.

 

If you can deploy in a corner and shoot everything in your opponent's army you're not paying 40k correctly. It's up to you and your local group to ensure this isn't the case in casual games. Most high profile events inlcuding the upcoming LGT have significant LOS blocking terrain.

 

The rules I have seen make me very happy because you are no longer encouraged to stay still. I will be marching around the board from turn 1, and I think the infantry units are by far the biggest winners.

Edited by Ishagu
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Captain Idaho Venerable Brother

Captain Idaho

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Ishagu: I'm quite an experienced player. I'm fully aware that terrain and objectives can change the make up of the game.

 

The thing is, shooting still dominates this game for most games, especilly those who can't make hordes. Call it a mobile gun line if you want but Guilliman will be obnoxious.

 

Imagine this list - 2 Predators with Heavy Bolters, 3 Centurions with Heavy Bolters and Guilliman. You can fit in anything you like after that, there's plenty of points left. Add 6 Aggressors as bodyguards to Guilliman.

 

You've got 1st Turn Devastator Doctrine - that's a lot of AP-2 coming at you at range and plenty of other firepower otherwise, all rerolling hits and wounds. You've got 2 Predators that doing D3 per hit with AP-2 and a total 4D3 shots!

 

It will sweep the board clear of just about anything in the game.

 

I can't speak to your motives for defending Guilliman's cost in this new Codex (there's not many people doing that you'll notice) but it does seem biased.

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Toxichobbit Venerable Brother

Toxichobbit

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I'm with Ishagu on this. I'm really stoked to be able to play a mobile firepower army. My biggest gripe with 40k has always been how static it is if you want to shoot. It's gotten better over the years (I remember the dark days of 3rd ed where you had to stand still to even fire at full range with bolters, man that edition was awful) but never truly been a mobile ranged game for Marines until now. I love it.

 

 

Seems that way. GW are the sticking to their "only have rules if there's a kit" dogma.

Shame as a flexible and customisable Honour Guard datasheet is a kit basher's dream.

 

 

As far as I can tell, the new Codex doesn't invalidate the Index, so Index Honour Guard are still available. Up to each individual if they want to invest in a unit that's Index only or not.

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Ishagu

Ishagu

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Posted (edited)

Ishagu: I'm quite an experienced player. I'm fully aware that terrain and objectives can change the make up of the game.

 

The thing is, shooting still dominates this game for most games, especilly those who can't make hordes. Call it a mobile gun line if you want but Guilliman will be obnoxious.

 

Imagine this list - 2 Predators with Heavy Bolters, 3 Centurions with Heavy Bolters and Guilliman. You can fit in anything you like after that, there's plenty of points left. Add 6 Aggressors as bodyguards to Guilliman.

 

You've got 1st Turn Devastator Doctrine - that's a lot of AP-2 coming at you at range and plenty of other firepower otherwise, all rerolling hits and wounds. You've got 2 Predators that doing D3 per hit with AP-2 and a total 4D3 shots!

 

It will sweep the board clear of just about anything in the game.

 

I can't speak to your motives for defending Guilliman's cost in this new Codex (there's not many people doing that you'll notice) but it does seem biased.

Most Astartes guns are around the 30" range. Do you only play Dawn of War?

 

I myself am a vastly experienced player, I've been in more tournaments this year than most people have played games in the last 12 months.

 

Movement is so important. If I remain static with a Guilliman list I'll lose the game 7/10 times. It's as simple as that.

I could go to my local GW and play against inexperienced or new players and win most of my matches of course, but that isn't a true indicator of anything.

 

In a real world scenario do you know how many units I bubble around Guilliman? Two, sometimes less. If he costs 1 point more I'll be dropping him from any and all of my Ultras lists because I'm not convinced I get a return, especially now that general units are so much more damaging and I can bring more of them instead.

 

Do you know that 3 Salamander Quad Las Predators have almost identical efficiency and damage to 3 Ultramarine Predators crowded around Guilliman? Try the math, as they get the re-rolls for free. Of course Guilliman helps with lower strength weapons, but is that help better than outright doubling the number of shots I could be putting out?

Edited by Ishagu
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Captain Idaho Venerable Brother

Captain Idaho

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Posted (edited)

Ishagu has moved the goal posts. I was saying Guilliman needs to be adjusted and Ishagu disagrees but I never once said Marines shouldn't and aren't more mobile especially with these Ultramarines rules.

 

What I am saying, to which I stand by, is Guilliman will make the extreme firepower over bearing. Don't call it a gunline, call it mobile firepower. The result is the same - a boring match up.

 

***

 

And that post, Ishagu, is the reason I won't engage with you any further.

Edited by Captain Idaho
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Marshal Rohr Venerable Brother

Marshal Rohr

Posted
Posted (edited)

Ishagu: I'm quite an experienced player. I'm fully aware that terrain and objectives can change the make up of the game.

 

The thing is, shooting still dominates this game for most games, especilly those who can't make hordes. Call it a mobile gun line if you want but Guilliman will be obnoxious.

 

Imagine this list - 2 Predators with Heavy Bolters, 3 Centurions with Heavy Bolters and Guilliman. You can fit in anything you like after that, there's plenty of points left. Add 6 Aggressors as bodyguards to Guilliman.

 

You've got 1st Turn Devastator Doctrine - that's a lot of AP-2 coming at you at range and plenty of other firepower otherwise, all rerolling hits and wounds. You've got 2 Predators that doing D3 per hit with AP-2 and a total 4D3 shots!

 

It will sweep the board clear of just about anything in the game.

 

I can't speak to your motives for defending Guilliman's cost in this new Codex (there's not many people doing that you'll notice) but it does seem biased.

The real issue is Guilliman being in anything but Apocalypse anyway. That’s why FW locks Primarchs and super killy units in a slot tied to a percentage of points values. Wanting Guilliman in a matched play game at all is the problem. Edited by Marshal Rohr
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