Codex: Space Marines 2.0 speculation & discussion

[Silas7]

 

Right now without the book I am looking at 3” range, and immunity to -1 AP. Of course with my Chapter fluff I might just go with the Ravenguard cover and immune to AP-1

It's a tough call! I think the cover bonus is better however it doesn't work up close. Depends on how you intend to play.

 

Considering that Doctrines nullify the cover bonus I'm not so sure.

[MegaVolt87]

How many points would the Fusils be though? Surely at least 20 pts each for a gun that good. 

[War Angel]

Will they even still be able to fire the fusil’s at characters?

 

We’ve been fairly lackluster for a long time, yes we’re getting a huge boost but that’s just putting us back in the game.

 

I like the transport (going to take some time to learn new names) I’m glad it’s not a rhino that flys. And now you can advance a squad of hell blasters into turn one rapid fire, take the company ancient with them, take out the big uns.

 

Such great stufff.

[Zustiur]

Indeed. Knowing the points values is crucial in determining if something is OP or not. Those Las fusils could end up being 30 points just for the weapon. Compare to lascannons at 25... I won't be surprised if GW overvalued D3.

[Lemondish]

If the assault 3 rumor for auto bolt rifles is true then do any Deathwatch players have an opinion on what that might mean for Intercessors and SIA competing with Bolter Discipline and rapid fire?

Bolter Discipline doesn't work with SIA so they'll be guaranteed to be superior whereas before it was a bit of a sidegrade.

 

still rumor:

 

Bad news, no new kit of suppressor. Shadowspear only.

 

Eliminators 3 max>unit

 

auto bolt riffle goes Assaut 3

 

15pts lasgun

 

75pts Impulsor naked (15 to 18 pts for options)

 

19pts incursor + 10pts mine

19 pts Incursor isn't bad.

 

The Impulsor at that point cost seems good. What's the Toughness, though? That's the question.

[CaptainMarsh]

Indeed. Knowing the points values is crucial in determining if something is OP or not. Those Las fusils could end up being 30 points just for the weapon. Compare to lascannons at 25... I won't be surprised if GW overvalued D3.

The current rumor is 15.

 

Will they even still be able to fire the fusil’s at characters?

 

Based on what we saw, unlikely. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

This is beyond power creep, this is hey look we're just outright better

Whats this, 5 special rules rolled into one just for being a space marine chapter.

That walker gets straight up better vehicle autocannons. Flat 6 shots. If I'm lucky i might get that. Oh and first turn if doctrines apply to him they're -2 as well.

I get some spoopy boys that i need 3 books to run how i want

But wait ...

 

Stubbers for days.

[Lemondish]

 

This is beyond power creep, this is hey look we're just outright better

Whats this, 5 special rules rolled into one just for being a space marine chapter.

That walker gets straight up better vehicle autocannons. Flat 6 shots. If I'm lucky i might get that. Oh and first turn if doctrines apply to him they're -2 as well.

I get some spoopy boys that i need 3 books to run how i want

But wait ...

 

Stubbers for days.

Honestly don't mind Ironhail stubbers. The profile is decent.

[BitsHammer]

Stubbers don't proc any of pur bolter based abilities. This might be the way they'rer choosing to restrict abilities that affect bolters going forward while also showing that Guilliman has bridged the rift between the Mechanicus and the rest of the Imperium by forcing them to roll out so much equipment that they don't even have enogh bolters to go around for everything.

 

Stubber ammo is also lighter weight and smaller which means you can carry more rounds at a time which might also be an in-universe factor for stuff like the new walker.

 

Just my .02 on possibly lore and gameplay influences on model design.

[durdle-durdle]

After thinking about it, I think the doctrines will help out a mechanized force quite a bit. Turn 1, your repulsors, executioner, and impulsive move up and shoot out the big threats. Turn 2, your intercessors/hellblasters disembark and any reserves come in using tactical doctrine. If you have an impulsor, it goes in deep and disembarks. Then turn 3, your intercessors, Reivers, or aggressors move up and shoot then punch. I play a more shooty force, so I’d probably just stay at tactical doctrine, but I could see the argument for Templar’s or something switching to assault.

 

I also have a gut feeling that ultras and maybe others will almost definitely be able to go back and forth on doctrines with stratagems.

 

I’m still trying to decide on what sort of chapter tactic I want though. Originally, I was all about the imperial fists because I play with a bunch of cover, but with everyone already getting -1 ap I’m shooting anyways, and incursors already ignoring cover, I feel like that’s probably overkill on most units. Im starting to lean towards something more defensive like iron hands, because with these buffs, I feel like marines aren’t really going to struggle too much to kill stuff.

 

I’d really like 6+ fnp and ignore -1 ap, but I would totally get it if that wasn’t a possible combo in this book.

[Panzer]

 

 

Max. of 3 models in an Eliminator unit makes sense because of sergeant's ability to buff them.

Nah, I'd take 3 shots hitting on 3s over 2 hitting on 2s every time, especially with access to auras.

 

The sgt option makes me think the squad can be run as a six, not the other way around.

Though it also boosts wound roll

 

 

 

 

 

Right now without the book I am looking at 3” range, and immunity to -1 AP. Of course with my Chapter fluff I might just go with the Ravenguard cover and immune to AP-1

It's a tough call! I think the cover bonus is better however it doesn't work up close. Depends on how you intend to play.

 

Considering that Doctrines nullify the cover bonus I'm not so sure.

 

Firstly not everyone you face is going to play vanilla Marines and secondly it's not like they just ignore cover. If you aren't in cover they still make your armour worse. So that means being in Cover still does something for you and is not wasted or anything against Combat Doctrines.

 

On the other hand +3" range on your weapons is a really minimal buff and will only really have an impact on super short ranged weapons (really, what's 1.5" more rapid fire range on a 30" weapon etc).

[chapter master 454]

So maybe we will have a reason to use tacticals and assault marines now. Hoping to see those units gain a special exemption to the doctrine staging. Would be kinda cool for tacticals be able to chose to start in tactical mode while assaults can opt to straight to assault mode (rather than waiting for turn 3 when the fight is already done).

 

...quick question: where the emperors left cheek cushion of the golden throne is the flamer weapon on the warsuit? is it that funky missile pod thing or is it supposed to be some sort of "dragonbreath" type ammo it uses in the big stubber gun?

[Excubitor]

With all this great stuff being brought in, as a Salamanders main from the early days I just have one burning desire - please GW, give us Heavy Flamers in Tactical Squads!

[Panzer]

Originally, I was all about the imperial fists because I play with a bunch of cover, but with everyone already getting -1 ap I’m shooting anyways

 

This line of thought makes no sense. Better AP is generally good against almost every unit even if they aren't in cover, so adding ignore cover to it doesn't replace it. The bonuses are cumulative, not exclusive.

Fair point about the Incursors if you plan to bring a lot of them though.

 

...quick question: where the emperors left cheek cushion of the golden throne is the flamer weapon on the warsuit? is it that funky missile pod thing or is it supposed to be some sort of "dragonbreath" type ammo it uses in the big stubber gun?

 

It's an alternative weapon option for its right arm, which is not a big stubber gune but an autocannon variant as we know now.

[durdle-durdle]

 

 

Originally, I was all about the imperial fists because I play with a bunch of cover, but with everyone already getting -1 ap I’m shooting anyways

This line of thought makes no sense. Better AP is generally good against almost every unit even if they aren't in cover, so adding ignore cover to it doesn't replace it. The bonuses are cumulative, not exclusive.

Fair point about the Incursors if you plan to bring a lot of them though.

 

...quick question: where the emperors left cheek cushion of the golden throne is the flamer weapon on the warsuit? is it that funky missile pod thing or is it supposed to be some sort of "dragonbreath" type ammo it uses in the big stubber gun?

It's an alternative weapon option for its right arm, which is not a big stubber gune but an autocannon variant as we know now.

No, I know it doesn’t replace it. But, like my intercessors will already be ap-2 on turn 2. Do I really need them to also ignore cover? It’s not crappy by any means imo, but i kind of feel like it might maybe be overkill. I think I’d be better served with defensive traits than more offensive traits, though it comes down to the warlord trait, relic, and stray tied to it.

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

 

I'm really torn as to which "vanilla" army I want to do. I've always loved Salamanders, but their chapter tactic is pretty pointless on primaris (I'm one of the in the middle, grey area kinda people in that I like primaris and first born at the same time and want a fairly even mix of both in my army). i like both IF and CF equally from a fluff and colour scheme point of view and tactically think both are pretty good mid to upper tier armies. And finally there's the attraction of creating my own chapter, most likely a Salamanders successor but with different CT than their progenitors

 

I'm liking everything I'm seeing about this release, and want to do a small Phobos force along side whatever army I do choose. The Impulsor looks cool, but I'd definitely be using the shield dome or comms array as if I want anti air I'll take a dedicated anti air tank or a stromhawk.

 

Finally, instead of tactical doctrines I hope we get some bespoke rules for DA,DA and SW. I'm not a rules writer so I've no idea, but for example maybe hunter protocols and acquisition protocols tuat benefit RW and DW specifically in for DA

Salamanders Chapter tactic is incredible on Primaris.

.

 

The latter half reducing the AP to AP0 from AP1 is useful, however the reroll to hit and wound, not so much. Its perfect for tactical squads, with weapons like LC, MM and MG and could even save a plasma gunner from death, but what are you going to use it on for intercessors? A bolt rifle? Maybe the aux GL? Seems a waste compared to IF/CF tactics which benefit the whole squad.

[autek mor]

i will take anti ap-1 and the ability to fall back and shoot please.

[Claws and Effect]

I won't be surprised if GW overvalued D3.

Be hard to overvalue a D3 weapon that can consistently hit and wound on 2s with a potential -4 AP value.

[BitsHammer]

 

 

I'm really torn as to which "vanilla" army I want to do. I've always loved Salamanders, but their chapter tactic is pretty pointless on primaris (I'm one of the in the middle, grey area kinda people in that I like primaris and first born at the same time and want a fairly even mix of both in my army). i like both IF and CF equally from a fluff and colour scheme point of view and tactically think both are pretty good mid to upper tier armies. And finally there's the attraction of creating my own chapter, most likely a Salamanders successor but with different CT than their progenitors

 

I'm liking everything I'm seeing about this release, and want to do a small Phobos force along side whatever army I do choose. The Impulsor looks cool, but I'd definitely be using the shield dome or comms array as if I want anti air I'll take a dedicated anti air tank or a stromhawk.

 

Finally, instead of tactical doctrines I hope we get some bespoke rules for DA,DA and SW. I'm not a rules writer so I've no idea, but for example maybe hunter protocols and acquisition protocols tuat benefit RW and DW specifically in for DA

Salamanders Chapter tactic is incredible on Primaris.

.

 

The latter half reducing the AP to AP0 from AP1 is useful, however the reroll to hit and wound, not so much. Its perfect for tactical squads, with weapons like LC, MM and MG and could even save a plasma gunner from death, but what are you going to use it on for intercessors? A bolt rifle? Maybe the aux GL? Seems a waste compare to IF/CF that benefit the whole squad.

It's free rerolls per squad per attack phase. That's basically free CP.

 

And rerolls on single shot weapons are always good, so on the Grenade Launcher.

[CCE1981]

I’ve played several dozen games, only one did I think falling back and shooting would be good. Then the rest of my army shot and it made no difference. The only time I think it will do anything is on vehicles without heavy weapon...if you aren’t bracketed.

 

Ignore AP -1, I think is huge, it will work against every army. I also like that 3” range on all weapons, in a standard bolter it means your shooting into your opponents deployment zone without moving, it also means flamers are range 11” and getting use against ling chargers/ deepstrikers.

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

 

 

 

I'm really torn as to which "vanilla" army I want to do. I've always loved Salamanders, but their chapter tactic is pretty pointless on primaris (I'm one of the in the middle, grey area kinda people in that I like primaris and first born at the same time and want a fairly even mix of both in my army). i like both IF and CF equally from a fluff and colour scheme point of view and tactically think both are pretty good mid to upper tier armies. And finally there's the attraction of creating my own chapter, most likely a Salamanders successor but with different CT than their progenitors

 

I'm liking everything I'm seeing about this release, and want to do a small Phobos force along side whatever army I do choose. The Impulsor looks cool, but I'd definitely be using the shield dome or comms array as if I want anti air I'll take a dedicated anti air tank or a stromhawk.

 

Finally, instead of tactical doctrines I hope we get some bespoke rules for DA,DA and SW. I'm not a rules writer so I've no idea, but for example maybe hunter protocols and acquisition protocols tuat benefit RW and DW specifically in for DA

Salamanders Chapter tactic is incredible on Primaris.

.

 

The latter half reducing the AP to AP0 from AP1 is useful, however the reroll to hit and wound, not so much. Its perfect for tactical squads, with weapons like LC, MM and MG and could even save a plasma gunner from death, but what are you going to use it on for intercessors? A bolt rifle? Maybe the aux GL? Seems a waste compare to IF/CF that benefit the whole squad.

It's free rerolls per squad per attack phase. That's basically free CP.

 

And rerolls on single shot weapons are always good, so on the Grenade Launcher.

.

 

True all that. But two things worth pointing out are those rerolls are better in a tactical squad as you've got a much better selection of better single shot/high strength weapons plus the ability to take TH on the sarge, which can't be done on intercessors, the best you've got are fists. Its not so much that the CT is useless on primaris, but rather you get more bang for your buck so to speak for taking first born.

[CaptainMarsh]

To reiterate because I keep on seeing people creating combos with the various STs as if every element of every CT will be an option:

We have no reason to believe that is the case. We have seen them show off part of the CT being existant as an ST, but it is mathematically extremely unlikely for 12-16 of the 19 choices to be that.

 

We have already seen 5 that are not reproductions of capabilities found in CTs. That leaves 14 options. Even if we are conservative and believe there will be options from only the first 6 founding chapters, if we were to say both halves (or three if you're Iron Hands) are present, then you are looking at 12-13 options. That would leave 1-2 that we haven't seen, and that seems very unlikely.

It is far more likely we will see half of a parent CT replicated as a ST, and then everything else is new. So I sincerely doubt we will be able to select a ST that says you ignore AP-1.

I absolutely could be wrong, but I caution people from treating ST like they are a bottomless CT soup. 

@Captain Smashy Pants- There are two separate discussions to be had. Intercessors aren't as efficient with the Salamander Tactic as, say, a Tactical Squad with a Heavy Weapon. But the Intercessor unit is better than the Tactical Squad unit, and the re-rolls are being used on a unit that is more likely to last longer and get more use out of it. Neither view is incorrect. The good thing about the Salamander Tactic is that it is universally beneficial- very little work needs to be done to see good mileage out of it. 

[Panzer]

D3 is one of the strongest things in the game wherever you find it. Hard to overvalue that lol

Will they even still be able to fire the fusil’s at characters?
 

I bet all my money and models that the answer is a 'no'. If they could there would be literally no reason to ever go for the actual sniper variant anymore.

[MajorNese]

Clearly no.

 

Being able to target characters with the bolt sniper rifle is a weapons ability, not a unit ability of the lemonators. WHC posted the full profile of the las-fusil, which had Abilities " - ", so no.

But that was foreseeable - the Apoc datasheet already had the "Sniper" ability on the BSR and no ability on the fusil.

[momerathe]

Eliminators + phobos librarian w. scryer's gaze & shrouding sounds like a fun combo.